"The Catholic Church is wrong"

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Roamin_Xian said:
God judges both, my friend. God doesn’t tolerate idleness, which is what Protestant “Sola Scriptura” doctrine promulgates.
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God judges the heart. If the heart is far from God, the works performed will not be done for God. Is this really so hard to understand?
 
HankZ said:
Did you catch the part where He said, “Me?”
You can do everything good, but if you don’t do it for God, it is worthless.
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Absolutely Hank- we have agreement 🙂 “Faith Without Works…works without faith.” St. James described well the Christian life and purpose.

Faith and works are symbiotic- they feed off eachother and rely on one another. One is worthless without the other.
 
Roamin_Xian said:
It’s nice to know that you could mentally negate huge tracts of Scripture without flinching.
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I do have to say, I don’t quit know what your getting at. I can only guess that you think that was an insult of some sort.
 
HankZ said:
What I was saying is if a person, after believing themself to be saved then turns their back on God, they have not left that which they always were, unsaved. You may think you cannot know you are saved, but that goes against scripture. We are given clear passages to that fact. False beliefs are nothing new, people can and do believe some far out stuff. People believe in alians, because I don’t, that doesn’t stop me from believing there is an outer space. You may believe that salvation comes by or is kept by works, I still know that I’m saved by faith alone. The Holy Spirit is my proof.
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I’m affraid you aren’t getting to the point of my question… That same person that you say wasn’t “saved” or yet “converted” can totally believe that they are… and will in fact assuredly claim that they are “saved”… and will without doubt believe it. Yet this same person may later in life fall totally from God… yet at one point in their life they were doing exactly the same thing as you as far as preaching to the “needy” and exclaiming the saving graces of God… yet something in their life causes them to fall without repenting… If this has happened to 1 person in 2000 years then how can we be so sure that it can’t happen to us? Remember that at one point in that person’s life they truly without doubt believed they were saved for eternity… Would you have not sat with this person prior to their falling and agreed that he was “saved” after preaching with him in the streets?

SD
 
HankZ said:
Did you catch the part where He said, “Me?”
You can do everything good, but if you don’t do it for God, it is worthless.
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Well of course we do it for God, but it remains we must do the works according to scripture in this case, can you agree with this considering these verses?
 
Roamin_Xian said:
Absolutely Hank- we have agreement 🙂 “Faith Without Works…works without faith.” St. James described well the Christian life and purpose.

Faith and works are symbiotic- they feed off eachother and rely on one another. One is worthless without the other.
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James uses that as inner proof, not for the world to see. Never is there a statement that faith without works is not faith. He says that faith without works is a dead faith. It is not productive to the Kingdom of God and you should do something about it. That is different from saying that with out outside proof, you have no faith and jump to the conclusion that you can’t be saved without works. James is speaking to the saved Jews, so he would not have to address that they first be saved, their belief in Jesus is why the they were scatered.
HankZ
 
HankZ said:
You must first figure out if you are capable of doing good works. Do everything to bring God glory, that is good works. Doing things to make you look good, filthy rags.
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That is such an important distinction. I remember sharing Christ with a man and he wasn’t getting it so we stopped and prayed and then I shared a little more about how ALL his sins were placed on Christ at the cross befor He cried out “It is finished” (Greek word is ktetelestai", literally ‘paid in full’). All of a sudden he said, “you mean all I have to do is believe?!” He prayed to receive Christ’s forgiveness that day and he never looked back. 30 years of good works have followed. He has led many others to Christ as well (the BEST good work!). True grace liberates. It doesn’t make you want to sit idle.
 
SD_Catholic said:
I’m affraid you aren’t getting to the point of my question… That same person that you say wasn’t “saved” or yet “converted” can totally believe that they are… and will in fact assuredly claim that they are “saved”… and will without doubt believe it. Yet this same person may later in life fall totally from God… yet at one point in their life they were doing exactly the same thing as you as far as preaching to the “needy” and exclaiming the saving graces of God… yet something in their life causes them to fall without repenting… If this has happened to 1 person in 2000 years then how can we be so sure that it can’t happen to us? Remember that at one point in that person’s life they truly without doubt believed they were saved for eternity… Would you have not sat with this person prior to their falling and agreed that he was “saved” after preaching with him in the streets?

SD
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Are you saying that a person could have been decieved by a false securtity in Christ? I don’t believe that is possible. The heart is decietful above all things. We can fall for certain lies, that is true. I just can’t see having the experience I had, ever thinking that Christ had not saved me. Salvation for me was getting out of a swamp that was thick mud and every step was a burden, never seeing more than a few feet ahead, and always, always dark, then August 8, 2005, I woke up to have Christ being at the wheel. Able to see myself as no longer a slave to sin, but free to follow Christ. Not everyone has a date like this, but God knew I needed to have that unquestionable salvation.

I don’t think I answered your question though. I would have to say that not everyone who says they are a Christian by word and deed, is truely a Christian. When we begin to be percicutted for following Christ, you will have a much better picture of who the real Christians are. Until then, we can only judge by the fruit of those who claim to be Christian.
 
Martin777 said:
That is such an important distinction. I remember sharing Christ with a man and he wasn’t getting it so we stopped and prayed and then I shared a little more about how ALL his sins were placed on Christ at the cross befor He cried out “It is finished” (Greek word is ktetelestai", literally ‘paid in full’). All of a sudden he said, “you mean all I have to do is believe?!” He prayed to receive Christ’s forgiveness that day and he never looked back. 30 years of good works have followed. He has led many others to Christ as well (the BEST good work!). True grace liberates. It doesn’t make you want to sit idle.
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Praise God.
Thanks for that.
 
HankZ said:
Are you saying that a person could have been decieved by a false securtity in Christ? I don’t believe that is possible. The heart is decietful above all things. We can fall for certain lies, that is true. I just can’t see having the experience I had, ever thinking that Christ had not saved me. Salvation for me was getting out of a swamp that was thick mud and every step was a burden, never seeing more than a few feet ahead, and always, always dark, then August 8, 2005, I woke up to have Christ being at the wheel. Able to see myself as no longer a slave to sin, but free to follow Christ. Not everyone has a date like this, but God knew I needed to have that unquestionable salvation.

I don’t think I answered your question though. I would have to say that not everyone who says they are a Christian by word and deed, is truely a Christian. When we begin to be percicutted for following Christ, you will have a much better picture of who the real Christians are. Until then, we can only judge by the fruit of those who claim to be Christian.
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Amen Hank… thanks for answering my question… if I didn’t know better I would think a Catholic wrote that last paragraph;)

SD
 
Martin777 said:
That is such an important distinction. I remember sharing Christ with a man and he wasn’t getting it so we stopped and prayed and then I shared a little more about how ALL his sins were placed on Christ at the cross befor He cried out “It is finished” (Greek word is ktetelestai", literally ‘paid in full’). All of a sudden he said, “you mean all I have to do is believe?!” He prayed to receive Christ’s forgiveness that day and he never looked back. 30 years of good works have followed. He has led many others to Christ as well (the BEST good work!). True grace liberates. It doesn’t make you want to sit idle.
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It seems to have worked out well for this man, but do you see any danger in people thinking that all they have to do is believe in God and they will go to heaven… because many people in the Bible thought they were going to God’s kingdom, but when it came to his judgement they were turned away… yet they believed in him also… only they didn’t follow all of his commands so they were turned away.

SD
 
notsmart said:
I simply prayed, offered up my daily work, all my pain, and went to mass as often as I could go.
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What a beautiful example! I would do well to remember your act of faith above my self-righteous rants and expectation.
 
St. Paul’s epsitle to Titus3:8 “This saying is true,and concerning these thingsd i desire thee to INSIST,that they who believe in God may be careful to EXCEL in GOOD WORKS, These things are GOOD and useful to men”
 
To HankZ and Martin777

Helllooooooo! I got skipped. Please go over post #993 regarding the Gospel verses mentioned… and thanks 🙂
 
fbl9 said:
St. Paul’s epsitle to Titus3:8 “This saying is true,and concerning these thingsd i desire thee to INSIST,that they who believe in God may be careful to EXCEL in GOOD WORKS, These things are GOOD and useful to men”
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now see, that’s what I"M talkin’ about…
 
fbl9 said:
St. Paul’s epsitle to Titus3:8 “This saying is true,and concerning these thingsd i desire thee to INSIST,that they who believe in God may be careful to EXCEL in GOOD WORKS, These things are GOOD and useful to men”
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Paul is saying we should speak confidently about salvation so that those who believe might do good deeds.
 
SD_Catholic said:
It seems to have worked out well for this man, but do you see any danger in people thinking that all they have to do is believe in God and they will go to heaven… because many people in the Bible thought they were going to God’s kingdom, but when it came to his judgement they were turned away… yet they believed in him also… only they didn’t follow all of his commands so they were turned away.

SD
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That’s a beautiful picture for representing the Holy Spirit…
 
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