The Catholic Church not a force for good in the World...

[why_me]

According the Intelligence Squared debate just seen on the BBC, the Catholic Church is not a force for good in the world. Here is a briefing of what will be discussed:

intelligencesquared.com/briefings/iq2-briefing-the-catholic-church.pdf

On the motion: The Catholic Church is a force for good in the world, 1862 voted against the motion and only 268 voted in favor. Why did the catholic church take such a beating? And why do so many believe that the catholic church is not a force for good in the world?

intelligencesquared.com/past-events.php?event=EVT0195

 

[TheosisM]

According the Intelligence Squared debate just seen on the BBC, the Catholic Church is not a force for good in the world. Here is a briefing of what will be discussed:

intelligencesquared.com/briefings/iq2-briefing-the-catholic-church.pdf

On the motion: The Catholic Church is a force for good in the world, 1862 voted against the motion and only 268 voted in favor. Why did the catholic church take such a beating? And why do so many believe that the catholic church is not a force for good in the world?

intelligencesquared.com/past-events.php?event=EVT0195

Well I guess we’ll just have to take Intelligence Squared’s word for the importance of the Catholic Church in the world. I’ll go call Catholic Charities and let them know.

Many of the opposing views in that document show the liberalism of the Western world, as well as the decline of the importance of religion in the West. It’s no wonder that atheist Chris Hitchens appealed to many people on this.

But then, when they need Catholic Charities, or go to a Catholic hospital, we’ll see how much they think that the Catholic Church isn’t a force of good in the world.

 

[why_me]

Well I guess we’ll just have to take Intelligence Squared’s word for the importance of the Catholic Church in the world. I’ll go call Catholic Charities and let them know.

Many of the opposing views in that document show the liberalism of the Western world, as well as the decline of the importance of religion in the West. It’s no wonder that atheist Chris Hitchens appealed to many people on this.

But then, when they need Catholic Charities, or go to a Catholic hospital, we’ll see how much they think that the Catholic Church isn’t a force of good in the world.

I can agree with you but Christopher Hitchens and Stephen Fry struck deep into the audiences’ psyche. For many people in this world, the catholic church is not a force for good in the world. And why should be asked. The briefing that I posted covers some of your points as sources for good, But the negatives in the briefing seemed to have held sway with the audience.

 

[RevDrNorth]

Without reading the links provided, I can only respond to the statement.

There is a LOT of bigotry in regard to the RCC and it comes from sections ranging from extreme elements within protestantism to liberals.

The fact of the matter is that the Church has many faults. Just two examples:
i) Most recently they failed to properly manage the abuse scandal. They have failed to screen their clergy and if what I read in a book called Sacrilege is true that has lead to abuses by Bishops and priest with people knowing about these issues. I won’t go in to describing the abuses but it included a Bishop in the US ordaining an unqualified boyfriend. These are not new and go back centuries.

ii) There have been cases where the church probably did NOT do enough to alleviate suffering in dictatorships and so on.

However, this same church preserved learning in the middle ages, helped spread schools and hospitals, through out the world via clergy and brother and sisters who suffered greatly but were dedicated to the cause of Christ. In the city my grandparents were in the ONLY hospital was a Catholic hospital. Christianity has preserved and advocated for women, etc. Pope John Paul II was a major force for good and human dignity

On the whole the church has failings but it also has been a tremendous advocate for the rights of human beings and advancement of society. To conclude anything else is probably to not look at it with an unbiased eye. We do need more strong conservative leaders who restore the churches credibility and deal with issues firmly. Go BXVII

 

[TheosisM]

Without reading the links provided, I can only respond to the statement.

There is a LOT of bigotry in regard to the RCC and it comes from sections ranging from extreme elements within protestantism to liberals.

The fact of the matter is that the Church has many faults. Just two examples:
i) Most recently they failed to properly manage the abuse scandal. They have failed to screen their clergy and if what I read in a book called Sacrilege is true that has lead to abuses by Bishops and priest with people knowing about these issues. I won’t go in to describing the abuses but it included a Bishop in the US ordaining an unqualified boyfriend. These are not new and go back centuries.

ii) There have been cases where the church probably did NOT do enough to alleviate suffering in dictatorships and so on.

However, this same church preserved learning in the middle ages, helped spread schools and hospitals, through out the world via clergy and brother and sisters who suffered greatly but were dedicated to the cause of Christ. In the city my grandparents were in the ONLY hospital was a Catholic hospital. Christianity has preserved and advocated for women, etc. Pope John Paul II was a major force for good and human dignity

On the whole the church has failings but it also has been a tremendous advocate for the rights of human beings and advancement of society. To conclude anything else is probably to not look at it with an unbiased eye. We do need more strong conservative leaders who restore the churches credibility and deal with issues firmly. Go BXVII

Thank you very much for your view . No Catholic can say that the Church has not had problems and doesn’t have anymore problems, some more disturbing than others. And yet, I find it absolutely hilarious that this “Intelligence Squared” audience would come to the conclusion that the Catholic Church is not a force of good in the world with all it does on social issues, with Catholic Charities (one of the largest charitable organizations in the world), with Catholic hospitals around the world, Catholic primary, secondary, and post-secondary institutions, etc. Again, I believe that the liberalism and anti-religious attitude of the West can be seen in this debate. And like you said, these same people sure will be glad for that force of good when they end up at the Catholic hospital in their neighborhood, or receive help from Catholic Charities after some disaster.

If the Catholic Church isn’t a force of good in the world, which church or religion is more of a force for good? I’d bet that they’d vote for the Church of Atheism.

 

[dolphinlove]

whyme, im still surprised your on these forums, esp with this title…

 

[TheosisM]

whyme, im still surprised your on these forums, esp with this title…

he never ceases to degrade the Catholic Church, so I really wasn’t surprised when I saw this thread.

 

[PaulDupre]

…and according to why me all Catholics are drunks and child-molesters, while of course all Mormons are perfect in every way.

At least he’s not trying to pretend to be Catholic any more.

 

[Corki]

I can agree with you but Christopher Hitchens and Stephen Fry struck deep into the audiences’ psyche. For many people in this world, the catholic church is not a force for good in the world. And why should be asked. The briefing that I posted covers some of your points as sources for good, But the negatives in the briefing seemed to have held sway with the audience.

Stephen Fry is listed as a comedian and Christopher Hitchens is definately a joke. But who were these people who voted? I guess they were more entertained by Fry than by a Bishop of the Church.

Take a look at some of the “facts” on the “against” side. If you don’t use any real facts, you can prove almost anything.

 

[TheosisM]

…and according to why me all Catholics are drunks and child-molesters, while of course all Mormons are perfect in every way.

At least he’s not trying to pretend to be Catholic any more.

and he knew horrible racist Catholics, but all the Mormons were perfect.

I mean, does he think we buy this charade?

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

According the Intelligence Squared debate just seen on the BBC, the Catholic Church is not a force for good in the world. Here is a briefing of what will be discussed:

intelligencesquared.com/briefings/iq2-briefing-the-catholic-church.pdf

On the motion: The Catholic Church is a force for good in the world, 1862 voted against the motion and only 268 voted in favor. Why did the catholic church take such a beating? And why do so many believe that the catholic church is not a force for good in the world?

intelligencesquared.com/past-events.php?event=EVT0195

“…Why do so many believe that the catholic church is not a force for good in the world?”​

Try reading the document at that first link

 

[Julian0404]

According the Intelligence Squared debate just seen on the BBC, the Catholic Church is not a force for good in the world. Here is a briefing of what will be discussed:

intelligencesquared.com/briefings/iq2-briefing-the-catholic-church.pdf

On the motion: The Catholic Church is a force for good in the world, 1862 voted against the motion and only 268 voted in favor. Why did the catholic church take such a beating? And why do so many believe that the catholic church is not a force for good in the world?

intelligencesquared.com/past-events.php?event=EVT0195

Mk 13;13 “Because of my name, you will be hated by everyone. Nonetheless, the man who holds out till the end is the one who will come through safe.”

 

[Guyonthestreet]

And like you said, these same people sure will be glad for that force of good when they end up at the Catholic hospital in their neighborhood, or receive help from Catholic Charities after some disaster.

If the Catholic Church isn’t a force of good in the world, which church or religion is more of a force for good? I’d bet that they’d vote for the Church of Atheism.

I agree with you. But sadly I dont think many receiving the services of said hospitals etc look on them as being ‘‘catholic’’ in a way that them being ‘‘catholic’’ will make a bit of difference to them once theyre recovered.

I spent many years on postings in Africa and saw this first hand in numeros theatres I was operational in.

No sooner than a crisis hit, you could sure and darn it bet your last buck there’d be a catholic charity right on your shoulder, dealing with us, the rebels, the politicians, and whoever else it took to get relief to the ordinary people on the street.

I met some brave, no, completely fearless, people who for the love of their God and Church were driven to care for everyone, without favor, at a time of cronic need.

Ive seen the schools go up with my own eyes practically overnight - the teachers just appear from out of thin air, the doctors and nurses as if by magic, while all around them a civil war rages.

But that seems to count as nothing when compared to the abuse scandal, the line the church takes on contraception, homosexual practices, and so on in peoples minds.

Worth mentioning that the catholic church is not the only one doing this kind of work and Ive come across equally good noncatholic organisations. At the time I wasnt remotely interested in any of them or their God. I was just impressed they were brave, good people and very altruistic. And annoyed at times when they made work for us in terms of security.

It’s a shame all this good work, the claims the catholic church is the true church of Christ, the massive political efforts made by the church in different parts of the world, just doesnt seem to cut it any more with the vast majority of people, including those who call themselves catholic.

I dont know what the answer is - but theres something wrong somewhere!!!

 

[RevDrNorth]

Actually, a great book to understand the sad and failing direction of Europe and why Europeans may not be in the best position to assess the Catholic Church is George Weigel’s book The Cube and the Cathedral. Sad decline noted there.

The Catholic Church needs to do major evangelism in Europe if it is not to late.

 

[zaffiroborant]

Just like the OP

 

[why_me]

whyme, im still surprised your on these forums, esp with this title…

I brought up a debate that was on the BBC and the outcome of that debate. And I provided links to it. I did not say that the catholic church was not a force for good in the world. The resolution for the debate was the statement: The Catholic Church is a force for good in the world. The resolution was defeated by the audience. Before the debate the majority of the audience did not think that the catholic church was not a force for good in the world. And after the debate, more believed that it was not a force for good.

My own opinion: it is a force for good in the world. But someone needs to work on catholic PR more and get the public to agree with me.

Should the outcome of the debate be censored?

 

[why_me]

Actually, a great book to understand the sad and failing direction of Europe and why Europeans may not be in the best position to assess the Catholic Church is George Weigel’s book The Cube and the Cathedral. Sad decline noted there.

The Catholic Church needs to do major evangelism in Europe if it is not to late.

You bring up a good point.

Many american catholics do not realize that the catholic church in europe may have a negative rating among the european population. Evangelism is important but so is PR work.

 

[why_me]

he never ceases to degrade the Catholic Church, so I really wasn’t surprised when I saw this thread.

By bring up this debate I am degading the catholic church? How? I said nothing negative about the catholic church on this thread. And so, how is bringing up this debate degrading the catholic church. Now if someone brings up information that is similiar of mormonism, islam, protestantism etc, as I have done with this debate would you accuse the poster of the same degradation. I don’t think so.

Stick to the topic. Why do you think that so many people have such a negative opinion of the catholic church?

 

[why_me]

…and according to why me all Catholics are drunks and child-molesters, while of course all Mormons are perfect in every way.

At least he’s not trying to pretend to be Catholic any more.

Attack the poster but say nothing of the debate. Nice one Paul. Have you ever thought that you may also be contributing to the negative attitude that the catholic church has in the world by such posts? I have never seen much love in your posts and yet, the catholic church is a church of love. What happened?

 

[why_me]

Stephen Fry is listed as a comedian and Christopher Hitchens is definately a joke. But who were these people who voted? I guess they were more entertained by Fry than by a Bishop of the Church.

Take a look at some of the “facts” on the “against” side. If you don’t use any real facts, you can prove almost anything.

They, the against side, presented their arguments very well. The catholic side did not have strong debaters. This affected the voting. The catholic church in europe has some work to do in overcoming the negative attitude of segments of the european population. It will not be easy but good PR would help.