The Catholic Church wrong? Part two

[twb1621]

Were are we?

oh…
Originally Posted by HankZ

‘I did answer it. The only good deed you have is accepting the sacrifice of Jesus to pay for your sins. Good deeds are not a tool used in judgement in the contents you are putting it, how could the thief enter without them or being baptized or any of the other “sacraments?” He could not feed poor, clothe the naked, or anyother works, he was nailed to a tree beside our Lord, unable to help himself. This is the perfect position to be in, helpless and in need of our Lord.”

In your response you are completely disregarding the entire verse and its meaning. Again I present it and stand on the fact that The entire verse speaks of being judged as to doing good works or doing nothing… That was the point and what I was asking you about as far as your opinion of the purpose of it if you do not need good works.

Can you explain the purpose of the following if we are not to do good works toward our salvation?
Math CH 25 31 14 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit upon his glorious throne, 32 and all the nations 15 will be assembled before him. And he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. 34 Then the king will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a strange and you welcomed me, 36 naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.’ 37 Then the righteous 16 will answer him and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? 39 When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?’ 40 And the king will say to them in reply, ‘Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.’ 41 17 Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.’ 44 18 Then they will answer and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?’ 45 He will answer them, ‘Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.’ 46 And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

How can you possibly submit a response and consider it credible as you have based on this scripture verse? Other than saying “because” show some support at least.

 

[guanophore]

Were are we?

Thanks for starting a new thread. I did have an unfinished feeling when the other one maxed out.

HankZ:

‘I did answer it. The only good deed you have is accepting the sacrifice of Jesus to pay for your sins. Good deeds are not a tool used in judgement in the contents you are putting it, how could the thief enter without them or being baptized or any of the other “sacraments?” He could not feed poor, clothe the naked, or anyother works, he was nailed to a tree beside our Lord, unable to help himself. This is the perfect position to be in, helpless and in need of our Lord.”

Catholics derive our conception of salvation from the Apostles, and we do not read scripture apart from that teaching, so that is the main reason we understand salvation differently from the children of the Reformers, who are separated from the Apostolic Tradition.

You are right, we need to accept the sacrifice of Jesus to pay for our sins. Once a person does that, certain things follow, such as obedience to His commands, including the sacraments. God does not judge us based upon things that are impossible for us to do. Obviously, if one is nailed to a cross, one cannot very well do good works for one’s fellow man. However, Jesus told the thief (whom we call the “good thief” instead of your “evil” thief) he would be with him that day in pardise. However, you note that Jesus did not take the thief with Him when He departed. Although the Lord said “it is finished”, he left the thief there to receive "just payment for sin’, Jesus could have taken him, but instead, he left him there to suffer the torture for the rest of the day. including having his legs broken and suffocating to death. If his sins were paid, why did Jesus leave Him to suffer for them? Jesus pays the eternal price for our sins, but often requires us to pay the temporal price. He does this for our sanctification. He knows best what we need to be made holy, not just declared holy. Sometimes that means we pay the consequences of our wrongdoing. There is also an element of reparation in temporal suffering. When a saved person offers their suffering for the benefit of theBody of Christ, a multitude of sins can be covered, one’s own, and those of others.

 

[NotWorthy]

Thanks for starting a new thread. I did have an unfinished feeling when the other one maxed out.

Catholics derive our conception of salvation from the Apostles, and we do not read scripture apart from that teaching, so that is the main reason we understand salvation differently from the children of the Reformers, who are separated from the Apostolic Tradition.

You are right, we need to accept the sacrifice of Jesus to pay for our sins. Once a person does that, certain things follow, such as obedience to His commands, including the sacraments. God does not judge us based upon things that are impossible for us to do. Obviously, if one is nailed to a cross, one cannot very well do good works for one’s fellow man. However, Jesus told the thief (whom we call the “good thief” instead of your “evil” thief) he would be with him that day in pardise. However, you note that Jesus did not take the thief with Him when He departed. Although the Lord said “it is finished”, he left the thief there to receive "just payment for sin’, Jesus could have taken him, but instead, he left him there to suffer the torture for the rest of the day. including having his legs broken and suffocating to death. If his sins were paid, why did Jesus leave Him to suffer for them? Jesus pays the eternal price for our sins, but often requires us to pay the temporal price. He does this for our sanctification. He knows best what we need to be made holy, not just declared holy. Sometimes that means we pay the consequences of our wrongdoing. There is also an element of reparation in temporal suffering. When a saved person offers their suffering for the benefit of theBody of Christ, a multitude of sins can be covered, one’s own, and those of others.

I think the good thief is a helpful teaching for salvation.

A) If one is faithful to the Words of Christ, following in His commandments and doing the will of the Father,

• or -
  B) If one is willing to suffer with Christ while on the Cross, even defending Christ, instead of demanding that Christ help get him off the Cross,

Then one will be rewarded with salvation.

I think the odds are that option A) is the scenario that the vast majority of us will be faced with. But should I ever be in the situation of option B), it’s nice to know what I need to do to be rewarded with Eternal Life.

 

[HankZ]

Were are we?

oh…
Originally Posted by HankZ

‘I did answer it. The only good deed you have is accepting the sacrifice of Jesus to pay for your sins. Good deeds are not a tool used in judgement in the contents you are putting it, how could the thief enter without them or being baptized or any of the other “sacraments?” He could not feed poor, clothe the naked, or anyother works, he was nailed to a tree beside our Lord, unable to help himself. This is the perfect position to be in, helpless and in need of our Lord.”

In your response you are completely disregarding the entire verse and its meaning. Again I present it and stand on the fact that The entire verse speaks of being judged as to doing good works or doing nothing… That was the point and what I was asking you about as far as your opinion of the purpose of it if you do not need good works.

Can you explain the purpose of the following if we are not to do good works toward our salvation?
Math CH 25 31 14 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit upon his glorious throne, 32 and all the nations 15 will be assembled before him. And he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. 34 Then the king will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a strange and you welcomed me, 36 naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.’ 37 Then the righteous 16 will answer him and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? 39 When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?’ 40 And the king will say to them in reply, ‘Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.’ 41 17 Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.’ 44 18 Then they will answer and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?’ 45 He will answer them, ‘Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.’ 46 And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

How can you possibly submit a response and consider it credible as you have based on this scripture verse? Other than saying “because” show some support at least.

I find this pasage to be an example of God’s grace given through Christ to His elect. Those who are saved are going to be given the right to be His sheep without understanding why. They even ask Him, when have we done these things? The deeds spoken of in this pasage, He is not directly saying that they were done by each and everyone of those that are saved. It may be He is putting the sheep in a group and they are judged in that group, collectively. Those who refused Him are unable to to good deeds so they are also judged as a group, collectively.
Obviously the deeds He is speaking of are important, but you first have to have total faith in Jesus as your Savior before you can qualify for the sheep’s judgement(or pardon.)
HankZ

 

[Martin777]

Were are we?

oh…
Originally Posted by HankZ

‘I did answer it. The only good deed you have is accepting the sacrifice of Jesus to pay for your sins. Good deeds are not a tool used in judgement in the contents you are putting it, how could the thief enter without them or being baptized or any of the other “sacraments?” He could not feed poor, clothe the naked, or anyother works, he was nailed to a tree beside our Lord, unable to help himself. This is the perfect position to be in, helpless and in need of our Lord.”

In your response you are completely disregarding the entire verse and its meaning. Again I present it and stand on the fact that The entire verse speaks of being judged as to doing good works or doing nothing… That was the point and what I was asking you about as far as your opinion of the purpose of it if you do not need good works.

Can you explain the purpose of the following if we are not to do good works toward our salvation?
Math CH 25 31 14 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit upon his glorious throne, 32 and all the nations 15 will be assembled before him. And he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. 34 Then the king will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a strange and you welcomed me, 36 naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.’ 37 Then the righteous 16 will answer him and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? 39 When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?’ 40 And the king will say to them in reply, ‘Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.’ 41 17 Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.’ 44 18 Then they will answer and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?’ 45 He will answer them, ‘Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.’ 46 And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

How can you possibly submit a response and consider it credible as you have based on this scripture verse? Other than saying “because” show some support at least.

Well here’s a couple of thoughts on that. First, I think prior to the cross and resurrection, Jesus was still trying to get the Pharisees and other Jews to understand that they fall short. That their righteousness doesn’t match up. You can’t get a person saved until they know they are lost. Secondly, nothing in that verse contradicts salvation by grace through faith. Genuine saving faith produces good works. “You will know a tree by its fruit.” Did you know that there are a lot of good works that will be burned up at the Bema (judgement) seat of Christ (“wood, hay and stubble”) because they were done for the wrong motives–either selfish gain or out of fear?! But genuine faith works, or it is dead!

 

[NotWorthy]

I find this pasage to be an example of God’s grace given through Christ to His elect.** Those who are saved are going to be given the right to be His sheep without understanding why**. They even ask Him, when have we done these things? The deeds spoken of in this pasage, He is not directly saying that they were done by each and everyone of those that are saved. It may be He is putting the sheep in a group and they are judged in that group, collectively. Those who refused Him are unable to to good deeds so they are also judged as a group, collectively.

But in the passage, Jesus says WHY they are separated out for their heavenly reward. … ***FOR *when I was hungry…

** He doesn’t say “For you were of the elect…”

Obviously the deeds He is speaking of are important, but you first have to have total faith in Jesus as your Savior before you can qualify for the sheep’s judgement(or pardon.)
HankZ

So how does that faith negate the fact that you must do these good works. Just because you have faith, doesn’t mean you are going to do these good works. The whole book of James addresses this.

Our good deeds are not a natural result of our faith. They are our faith working through our Love. They are part of what we are judged for, as is evidenced in numerous parables.

 

[NotWorthy]

Well here’s a couple of thoughts on that. First, I think prior to the cross and resurrection, Jesus was still trying to get the Pharisees and other Jews to understand that they fall short. That their righteousness doesn’t match up. You can’t get a person saved until they know they are lost. Secondly, nothing in that verse contradicts salvation by grace through faith. Genuine saving faith produces good works. “You will know a tree by its fruit.” Did you know that there are a lot of good works that will be burned up at the Bema (judgement) seat of Christ (“wood, hay and stubble”) because they were done for the wrong motives–either selfish gain or out of fear?! But genuine faith works, or it is dead!

Is it genuine faith that produces these works? Or is our faith strengthened by doing these good works, when done out of faith?

 

[HankZ]

But in the passage, Jesus says WHY they are separated out for their heavenly reward. … ***FOR ***when I was hungry…

He doesn’t say “For you were of the elect…”
So how does that faith negate the fact that you must do these good works. Just because you have faith, doesn’t mean you are going to do these good works. The whole book of James addresses this.

Our good deeds are not a natural result of our faith. They are our faith working through our Love. They are part of what we are judged for, as is evidenced in numerous parables.

He does say, “Come, you who are blessed by My Father.” Who are blessed by the Father, except the elect?

 

[HankZ]

Is it genuine faith that produces these works? Or is our faith strengthened by doing these good works, when done out of faith?

Works and faith, do go together as far as, you can “Show” your faith through good works, but you are saved through faith. You can have a saving faith before you do good works, but you cannot have good works before you have a saving faith.

You can have a tree before the fruit, but you cannot have fruit before you have the tree.

 

[NotWorthy]

He does say, “Come, you who are blessed by My Father.” Who are blessed by the Father, except the elect?

Who are blessed by the Father? Why, those who do the Father’s Will! Doesn’t the Parable of the 10 Talents prove that?

 

[NotWorthy]

Works and faith, do go together as far as, you can “Show” your faith through good works, but you are saved through faith. You can have a saving faith before you do good works, but you cannot have good works before you have a saving faith.

You can have a tree before the fruit, but you cannot have fruit before you have the tree.

No argument there, but that doesn’t prove your point. We all know that you can’t earn your way into heaven. But just because you have saving faith, doesn’t mean you will have good works.

 

[HankZ]

No argument there, but that doesn’t prove your point. We all know that you can’t earn your way into heaven. But just because you have saving faith, doesn’t mean you will have good works.

Good works is secondary. Salvation comes by faith alone. Working to keep the salvation you have been given, is a works based salvation and is not what God offers us. Works are not done to keep salvation, but the result of already recieving salvation. If you are saved, it is a done deal. If you can lose it by not working hard enough to keep it, that is no different from working to recieve it.

 

[NotWorthy]

Good works is secondary. Salvation comes by faith alone. Working to keep the salvation you have been given, is a works based salvation and is not what God offers us.

No, in every parable that Jesus gives that talks of our judgment, we are ALWAYS judged on our works. Please tell me where Jesus teaches that our judgment is NOT based on our works. Works are an integral part of our salvation process.

Works are not done to keep salvation, but the result of already recieving salvation.

Wrong. You can be saved, and lose your salvation.
If you keep my commandments, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commandments and remain in his love. Jesus doesn’t say, “If you keep your Faith…”. he says, “If you keep my commandments…” Sounds like are works have something to do with our salvation.

If you are saved, it is a done deal. If you can lose it by not working hard enough to keep it, that is no different from working to recieve it.

And yet Jesus makes it sounds like its NOT a done deal.
“Not every one who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.” (Matthew 7:21)
and again,
“And behold, one came up to him, saying, ‘Teacher, what good deed must I do, to have eternal life?’ And he said to him, 'Why do you ask me about what is good? One there is who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments.’… The young man said to him, ‘All these I have observed; what do I still lack?’ Jesus said to him, 'If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.’” (Matthew 19:16-21) If you would enter life, keep the commandments… Hmmm…

 

[HankZ]

No, in every parable that Jesus gives that talks of our judgment, we are ALWAYS judged on our works. Please tell me where Jesus teaches that our judgment is NOT based on our works. Works are an integral part of our salvation process.

Wrong. You can be saved, and lose your salvation.
If you keep my commandments, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commandments and remain in his love. Jesus doesn’t say, “If you keep your Faith…”. he says, “If you keep my commandments…” Sounds like are works have something to do with our salvation.

And yet Jesus makes it sounds like its NOT a done deal.
“Not every one who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.” (Matthew 7:21)
and again,
“And behold, one came up to him, saying, ‘Teacher, what good deed must I do, to have eternal life?’ And he said to him, 'Why do you ask me about what is good? One there is who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments.’… The young man said to him, ‘All these I have observed; what do I still lack?’ Jesus said to him, ‘If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.’” (Matthew 19:16-21) If you would enter life, keep the commandments… Hmmm…

Here lies the difference between the old covenant and the new covenant. The old covenant is the law which must be upheld perfectly.
As you know, we could not uphold it to the perfect standard. God being just, must punish those who break His law. Jesus fulfilled the law perfectly. Then He was then given the punishment we were to recieve. Through His blood He gave us the new covenant. This new covenant in His blood, covers our sins and makes us rightous before God. Our sins, past, present and future are wiped from our record and we are to walk in the Spirit and no longer be held to the law. That is why though the flesh is weak and we may fall, we hold on to Him for our salvation. He is faithfull and will finish the good work He started.

To do good deeds in order to keep your salvation is to try to follow the old covenant(law) again, which we already proved we could not do and in doing that, you reject the work that Jesus did on the cross.

 

[HankZ]

No argument there, but that doesn’t prove your point. We all know that you can’t earn your way into heaven. But just because you have saving faith, doesn’t mean you will have good works.

I believe it does. Through a saving faith, you recieve the good work that Christ did on the cross, and then the heart will want to be pleasing to the Savior. Not out of payment, but of gratefulness for the gift of salvation. This would be the over flow of the heart.

 

[NotWorthy]

Here lies the difference between the old covenant and the new covenant. The old covenant is the law which must be upheld perfectly.
As you know, we could not uphold it to the perfect standard. God being just, must punish those who break His law. Jesus fulfilled the law perfectly. Then He was then given the punishment we were to recieve. Through His blood He gave us the new covenant. This new covenant in His blood, covers our sins and makes us rightous before God. Our sins, past, present and future are wiped from our record and we are to walk in the Spirit and no longer be held to the law. That is why though the flesh is weak and we may fall, we hold on to Him for our salvation. He is faithfull and will finish the good work He started.

To do good deeds in order to keep your salvation is to try to follow the old covenant(law) again, which we already proved we could not do and in doing that, you reject the work that Jesus did on the cross.

The Law had nothing to do with Salvation, for it could only provide Temporal rewards. But the OT was a shadow of things to come, so…

 

[NotWorthy]

I believe it does. Through a saving faith, you recieve the good work that Christ did on the cross, and then the heart will want to be pleasing to the Savior. Not out of payment, but of gratefulness for the gift of salvation. This would be the over flow of the heart.

So, if I show you biblically that one can have saving faith, but doesn’t back it up with good works, then God can judge them harshly, you’d drop this heresy?

 

[HankZ]

So, if I show you biblically that one can have saving faith, but doesn’t back it up with good works, then God can judge them harshly, you’d drop this heresy?

We are argueing over what a good deed is and who can do good deeds.

By all means, if you have a bible verse which can show where your belief is found, please share it.

 

[HankZ]

The Law had nothing to do with Salvation, for it could only provide Temporal rewards. But the OT was a shadow of things to come, so…

If you are not under grace, then you are under the law, so it applies to all who do not know Jesus as Lord and Savior of their life.

 

[twb1621]

We are argueing over what a good deed is and who can do good deeds.

By all means, if you have a bible verse which can show where your belief is found, please share it.

I POSTED THIS TO YOU BEFORE BUT YOU DIDN’T RESPOND TO IT.
The verses;
The entire verse speaks of being judged as to doing good works or doing nothing… That was the point and what I was asking you about as far as your opinion of the purpose of it if you do not need good works.

Can you explain the purpose of the following if we are not to do good works toward our salvation?
Math CH 25 31 14 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit upon his glorious throne, 32 and all the nations 15 will be assembled before him. And he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. 34 Then the king will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a strange and you welcomed me, 36 naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.’ 37 Then the righteous 16 will answer him and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? 39 When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?’ 40 And the king will say to them in reply, ‘Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.’ 41 17 Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.’ 44 18 Then they will answer and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?’ 45 He will answer them, ‘Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.’ 46 And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

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