With this, you misunderstand my point. God used the OT to give us a shadow of the things to come. He expected obedience out of Israel, just as He expects obedience out of us. The difference is in the rewards.If you are not under grace, then you are under the law, so it applies to all who do not know Jesus as Lord and Savior of their life.
Right. Paul says the whole purpose of the Law is to convict us of the fact that we can’t keep it and need mercy, thus preparing us for the message of the cross.If you are not under grace, then you are under the law, so it applies to all who do not know Jesus as Lord and Savior of their life.
Martin777 and HankZRight. Paul says the whole purpose of the Law is to convict us of the fact that we can’t keep it and need mercy, thus preparing us for the message of the cross.
No, the difference is in the motivation and the enablement. Paul says Christians now serve out of “newness of the Spirit” rather than “oldness of the letter (of the Law)”. And in Jeremiah and elsewhere God promised that one day He would write His law on our heart! That’s what happens now when the Holy Spirit regenerates a new beleiver! Amazing.With this, you misunderstand my point. God used the OT to give us a shadow of the things to come. He expected obedience out of Israel, just as He expects obedience out of us. The difference is in the rewards.
Let me ask you, was Abraham saved by his Faith? Or by his Works?
I thought I already addressed this. Just remember that we never understand a passage until we can harmonize it with all the rest of Scriptire. The Bible does not contradict itself. It only appears to at times on the surface. Jesus shared these words in front of people who were proud of being Jews, proud of their circumcision and their law-keeping. They needed to be woken up to what life is all about. It is about love. Loving God and loving man. The old system is “Do this or else!”. It doesn’t work. The new system is “I did it all for you and will live through you as a child of the King. Let me adopt you and you will be free to serve me out of an eternally greatful heart rather than out of the futile way of fear.”I POSTED THIS TO YOU BEFORE BUT YOU DIDN’T RESPOND TO IT.
The verses;
The entire verse speaks of being judged as to doing good works or doing nothing… That was the point and what I was asking you about as far as your opinion of the purpose of it if you do not need good works.
Can you explain the purpose of the following if we are not to do good works toward our salvation?
Math CH 25 31 14 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit upon his glorious throne, 32 and all the nations 15 will be assembled before him. And he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. 34 Then the king will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a strange and you welcomed me, 36 naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.’ 37 Then the righteous 16 will answer him and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? 39 When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?’ 40 And the king will say to them in reply, ‘Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.’ 41 17 Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.’ 44 18 Then they will answer and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?’ 45 He will answer them, ‘Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.’ 46 And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
If that is the case, then why did Paul write so many letters to churches full of people who were presumably “saved” telling them that certain by certain actions (sin) they could lose their salvation?Good works is secondary. Salvation comes by faith alone. Working to keep the salvation you have been given, is a works based salvation and is not what God offers us. Works are not done to keep salvation, but the result of already recieving salvation. If you are saved, it is a done deal. If you can lose it by not working hard enough to keep it, that is no different from working to recieve it.
Martin you did address it and agreed based on this that good works are part of maintaining salvation. Your response here does not address these verses as Jesus Himself was very specific in what He was proclaiming which was choosing to do or not do good works and that being a consideration at judgement. As far as The Bible does not contradict itself, I agree.I thought I already addressed this. Just remember that we never understand a passage until we can harmonize it with all the rest of Scriptire. The Bible does not contradict itself. It only appears to at times on the surface. Jesus shared these words in front of people who were proud of being Jews, proud of their circumcision and their law-keeping. They needed to be woken up to what life is all about. It is about love. Loving God and loving man. The old system is “Do this or else!”. It doesn’t work. The new system is “I did it all for you and will live through you as a child of the King. Let me adopt you and you will be free to serve me out of an eternally greatful heart rather than out of the futile way of fear.”
Does that make sense?
The time in the first century was a transitional time. People were falling back into trusting the Law as a means of salvation, and were pressing that on others. Paul says if you are going to do that, you are turning your back on Christ and his atoning work. And there is no hope for you there. These people were mixed in among true believers and had knowledge of the truth but had not fully embraced it. That is what these passages are about. In no way is Paul contradicting what he exhaustively spelled out in Rom 3 and 4 about justification being by faith, apart from ANY works of the Law. His (God’s) words, not mine!If that is the case, then why did Paul write so many letters to churches full of people who were presumably “saved” telling them that certain by certain actions (sin) they could lose their salvation?
Galatians 5:1-4
For freedom Christ set us free; so stand firm and do not submit again to the yoke of slavery. It is I, Paul, who am telling you that if you have yourselves circumcised, Christ will be of no benefit to you. Once again I declare to every man who has himself circumcised that he is bound to observe the entire law. You are separated from Christ, you who are trying to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
You can’t be separated from Christ, unless you were once joined to Him.
Hebrews 6:4-8
For it is impossible for those who were once illuminated, have tasted also the heavenly gift and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, Have moreover tasted the good word of God and the powers of the world to come, And are fallen away: to be renewed again to penance, crucifying again to themselves the Son of God and making him a mockery. For the earth, that drinketh in the rain which cometh often upon it and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is tilled, receiveth blessing from God. But that which bringeth forth thorns and briers is reprobate and very near unto a curse: whose end is to be burnt.
This passage is talking to people who are partakers of the Holy Spirit, then fall away. Doesn’t this imply that salvation can be lost? These people are not unbelievers.
Hebrews 10:26-29
For if we sin wilfully after having the knowledge of the truth, there is now left no sacrifice for sins: But a certain dreadful expectation of judgment, and the rage of a fire which shall consume the adversaries. A man making void the law of Moses dieth without any mercy under two or three witnesses: How much more, do you think he deserveth worse punishments, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God and hath esteemed the blood of the testament unclean, by which he was sanctified, and hath offered an affront to the Spirit of grace?
This speaks of one who was sanctified by the blood of Christ, but willfully sinned. But if the Spirit of grace is outraged, is this person still on the way to heaven?
How do you rationalize these verses as responding to only a limited period in time of “transition” as you refer to it knowing that the entire history of Christian Faith has been affected by transition? Surely you can see the gospel relates to all at all times. If what you say is credibly interpreted from these texts I would be open to seeing that.The time in the first century was a transitional time. People were falling back into trusting the Law as a means of salvation, and were pressing that on others. Paul says if you are going to do that, you are turning your back on Christ and his atoning work. And there is no hope for you there. These people were mixed in among true believers and had knowledge of the truth but had not fully embraced it. That is what these passages are about. In no way is Paul contradicting what he exhaustively spelled out in Rom 3 and 4 about justification being by faith, apart from ANY works of the Law. His (God’s) words, not mine!
I think I fully addressed them. Please re-read what I wrote here and on the post that followed from me. Are you wanting to learn or just to press your point? It is only the body of Christ (the church) that properly engages in the works of love god desires. That was His plan since the day Adam sinned (long before that, actually, but that would be for another thread!). True believers WILL do good works, some more than others, but not to keep their salvation. People who don’t …don’t know Jesus. But remember, Jesus said on the last day there will be people who did all kinds of things in His name to whom He will say, “Depart from me. I NEVER KNEW YOU!”. Which group are you in?Martin you did address it and agreed based on this that good works are part of maintaining salvation. Your response here does not address these verses as Jesus Himself was very specific in what He was proclaiming which was choosing to do or not do good works and that being a consideration at judgement. As far as The Bible does not contradict itself, I agree.
That wasn’t original with me. But one of the basic principles of sound interpretation is to ask, what did this letter mean to the immediate hearers? And what was going on in the context of the letter. You have to start from there.How do you rationalize these verses as responding to only a limited period in time of “transition” as you refer to it knowing that the entire history of Christian Faith has been affected by transition? Surely you can see the gospel relates to all at all times. If what you say is credibly interpreted from these texts I would be open to seeing that.
There is only about 12 inches between knowledge and salvation, the distance from your head to your heart.If that is the case, then why did Paul write so many letters to churches full of people who were presumably “saved” telling them that certain by certain actions (sin) they could lose their salvation?
Galatians 5:1-4
For freedom Christ set us free; so stand firm and do not submit again to the yoke of slavery. It is I, Paul, who am telling you that if you have yourselves circumcised, Christ will be of no benefit to you. Once again I declare to every man who has himself circumcised that he is bound to observe the entire law. You are separated from Christ, you who are trying to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
You can’t be separated from Christ, unless you were once joined to Him.
If you have never been joined to Christ, then yes you are seperated from Him. If you believe that by living by the law you can have salvation, the writer is telling you that you do not have Christ.
Hebrews 6:4-8
For it is impossible for those who were once illuminated, have tasted also the heavenly gift and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, Have moreover tasted the good word of God and the powers of the world to come, And are fallen away: to be renewed again to penance, crucifying again to themselves the Son of God and making him a mockery. For the earth, that drinketh in the rain which cometh often upon it and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is tilled, receiveth blessing from God. But that which bringeth forth thorns and briers is reprobate and very near unto a curse: whose end is to be burnt.
This has been debated for years by people who are much smarter than I, so we will not come to an answer in this post. I believe that Judas Iscariot falls into this discription as does Simon the sorceror in Acts. Both had been given the word and believed in their heads that this is the truth. They fell away because they never accepted the truth in their hearts and were unable to fully trust in Jesus as their Savior. Saved by grace, through FAITH, which is not present in the life of an unsaved person, but knowledge can be.
This passage is talking to people who are partakers of the Holy Spirit, then fall away. Doesn’t this imply that salvation can be lost? These people are not unbelievers. I don’t see anywhere that a certain group is being addressed.
Hebrews 10:26-29
For if we sin wilfully after having the knowledge of the truth, there is now left no sacrifice for sins: But a certain dreadful expectation of judgment, and the rage of a fire which shall consume the adversaries. A man making void the law of Moses dieth without any mercy under two or three witnesses: How much more, do you think he deserveth worse punishments, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God and hath esteemed the blood of the testament unclean, by which he was sanctified, and hath offered an affront to the Spirit of grace?
The key here is after having knowledge.
This speaks of one who was sanctified by the blood of Christ, but willfully sinned. But if the Spirit of grace is outraged, is this person still on the way to heaven?
By faith. His works were an outside gage to show the overflow of what was in his heart.With this, you misunderstand my point. God used the OT to give us a shadow of the things to come. He expected obedience out of Israel, just as He expects obedience out of us. The difference is in the rewards.
Let me ask you, was Abraham saved by his Faith? Or by his Works?
I don’t see why you feel this section of scripture is about works. It is about judging those who have refused Him, and those who have accepted Him and are blessed by the Father. Those who were saved, did the will of the Father out of love, not for a wage.I POSTED THIS TO YOU BEFORE BUT YOU DIDN’T RESPOND TO IT.
The verses;
The entire verse speaks of being judged as to doing good works or doing nothing… That was the point and what I was asking you about as far as your opinion of the purpose of it if you do not need good works.
Can you explain the purpose of the following if we are not to do good works toward our salvation?
Math CH 25 31 14 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit upon his glorious throne, 32 and all the nations 15 will be assembled before him. And he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. 34 Then the king will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a strange and you welcomed me, 36 naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.’ 37 Then the righteous 16 will answer him and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? 39 When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?’ 40 And the king will say to them in reply, ‘Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.’ 41 17 Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.’ 44 18 Then they will answer and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?’ 45 He will answer them, ‘Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.’ 46 And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
The verse you referred to is;I think I fully addressed them. Please re-read what I wrote here and on the post that followed from me. Are you wanting to learn or just to press your point? It is only the body of Christ (the church) that properly engages in the works of love god desires. That was His plan since the day Adam sinned (long before that, actually, but that would be for another thread!). True believers WILL do good works, some more than others, but not to keep their salvation. People who don’t …don’t know Jesus. But remember, Jesus said on the last day there will be people who did all kinds of things in His name to whom He will say, “Depart from me. I NEVER KNEW YOU!”. Which group are you in?
In order to be able to understand a passage of the Bible one must be aware of:That wasn’t original with me. But one of the basic principles of sound interpretation is to ask, what did this letter mean to the immediate hearers? And what was going on in the context of the letter. You have to start from there.
you’re kidding me , right? or is that your way of saying you cannot credibly refute this?I don’t see why you feel this section of scripture is about works. It is about judging those who have refused Him, and those who have accepted Him and are blessed by the Father. Those who were saved, did the will of the Father out of love, not for a wage.
There is nothing in this passage that makes me believe I must do deeds for salvation in any way. I see nothing that says that those who are goats did good deeds, but not properly or not enough. I think you are not understanding the passage and are trying to put in your own thoughts rather than trying to see what Jesus was meaning.you’re kidding me , right? or is that your way of saying you cannot credibly refute this?
Remember, these are the interpritations of the very entity that gathered and interpreted the Bible. Not mine.There is nothing in this passage that makes me believe I must do deeds for salvation in any way. I see nothing that says that those who are goats did good deeds, but not properly or not enough. I think you are not understanding the passage and are trying to put in your own thoughts rather than trying to see what Jesus was meaning.
I find nothing to refute.
Romans 2:5-8 is immediately introducing repentance. What is your deffinition of repentance?you’re kidding me , right? or is that your way of saying you cannot credibly refute this?
And what is Romans Ch 2; 5-8 talking about if not works?
Provide credible source of rebuttal disproving these things if you are correct?