The Catholic Church wrong? Part two

[HankZ]

Remember, these are the interpritations of the very entity that gathered and interpreted the Bible. Not mine.

and nothing here either right?

Romans CH2
5 By your stubbornness and impenitent(unrepentant heart.) heart, you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgment of God,

6 who will repay everyone according to his works: 3

7 eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works,
8 but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness.
Than please refer me to the “correct” interpretation from a credible source that you base your discharge of these verses from.

 

[NotWorthy]

No, the difference is in the motivation and the enablement. Paul says Christians now serve out of “newness of the Spirit” rather than “oldness of the letter (of the Law)”. And in Jeremiah and elsewhere God promised that one day He would write His law on our heart! That’s what happens now when the Holy Spirit regenerates a new beleiver! Amazing.

And yet Jesus teaches time and time again that we will be judged by our actions, not by our faith.

Tell me of any parable of Jesus, regarding our Judgment, that is not based on our actions, please.

Instead you’ll find the sheeps and the goats, the parable of the talents, the 10 virgins, all showing us that merely having faith is not enough. You’ll find Paul, James, Peter, and John echoing this.

Faith is critical - no argument there, for without faith, you are nothing. But as Paul clearly says, “If I have Faith to move mountains, and have not love, then I am nothing”(paraphrasing).

 

[NotWorthy]

I thought I already addressed this. Just remember that we never understand a passage until we can harmonize it with all the rest of Scriptire. The Bible does not contradict itself. It only appears to at times on the surface. Jesus shared these words in front of people who were proud of being Jews, proud of their circumcision and their law-keeping. They needed to be woken up to what life is all about. It is about love. Loving God and loving man. The old system is “Do this or else!”. It doesn’t work. The new system is “I did it all for you and will live through you as a child of the King. Let me adopt you and you will be free to serve me out of an eternally greatful heart rather than out of the futile way of fear.”
Does that make sense?

No, it doesn’t make a lick of sense. In the Parable, the Master clearly spells out WHY the sheep are rewarded and the goats are punished. Look at the word FOR to get this answer.

 

[NotWorthy]

The time in the first century was a transitional time. People were falling back into trusting the Law as a means of salvation, and were pressing that on others. Paul says if you are going to do that, you are turning your back on Christ and his atoning work. And there is no hope for you there. These people were mixed in among true believers and had knowledge of the truth but had not fully embraced it.

Man, you are so close here, and then you fall off the rails

That is what these passages are about. In no way is Paul contradicting what he exhaustively spelled out in Rom 3 and 4 about justification being by faith, apart from ANY works of the Law. His (God’s) words, not mine!

Works OF THE LAW is what St. Paul is fighting - circumcision, ritual cleansing, and what-not. He is not minimalizing all the teachings of Jesus that say to feed and tend to the poor. That’s not at issue in Galations, Romans, and Hebrews.

 

[twb1621]

Romans 2:5-8 is immediately introducing repentance. What is your deffinition of repentance?

Common now HankZ,
What is your definition of;
“…eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works”

 

[NotWorthy]

By faith. His works were an outside gage to show the overflow of what was in his heart.

By Faith AND works. James, chapter 2 is rather poignant

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works.

Your faith is not enough. Abraham’s Faith was completed by His Work.

 

[NotWorthy]

I don’t see why you feel this section of scripture is about works. It is about judging those who have refused Him, and those who have accepted Him and are blessed by the Father. Those who were saved, did the will of the Father out of love, not for a wage.

They did the Will of the Father without knowing they were doing the Will of the Father. They were simply loving their neighbor as Jesus asked.

But where does it say they were judged for refusing Him. They call Him Master, don’t they? If I reject Satan, I don’t get into the habit of calling him Master, do I? I would suspect the same would go for someone who rejects Jesus.

 

[HankZ]

And yet Jesus teaches time and time again that we will be judged by our actions, not by our faith.

Tell me of any parable of Jesus, regarding our Judgment, that is not based on our actions, please.

Instead you’ll find the sheeps and the goats, the parable of the talents, the 10 virgins, all showing us that merely having faith is not enough. You’ll find Paul, James, Peter, and John echoing this.

Faith is critical - no argument there, for without faith, you are nothing. But as Paul clearly says, “If I have Faith to move mountains, and have not love, then I am nothing”(paraphrasing).

I think you really believe that you can somehow do your part to obtain or keep your salvation, but all you are doing by this is rejecting the sufficiency of Christ.

 

[NotWorthy]

Romans 2:5-8 is immediately introducing repentance. What is your deffinition of repentance?

Repentance is Turning Away From Sin. It does not necessarily mean belief, which is why the AND is in Repent and believe in the Gospel. Repent and be baptized.

 

[HankZ]

Common now HankZ,
What is your definition of;
“…eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works”/QUOTE

Do you have a definition for repentance or not. That is pivital to this discussion.

 

[NotWorthy]

I think you really believe that you can somehow do your part to obtain or keep your salvation, but all you are doing by this is rejecting the sufficiency of Christ.

I think Jesus is going to judge me when I die. Why can’t you do the same?

Where have I said that I can earn my Salvation? When have I gone any further than saying that my good works are a part of my Salvation process? The only reason I’m not stressing Faith is because that’s already accepted by both you and I and all other Christians.

What we are contending is whether are good words lead us to a greater faith, or whether our good works are simply a by-product of our faith.

You’ve never shown me though where Scripture teaches that our Works are nothing more than the fruit of our faith. It seems that James is claiming that Faith is not a natural result of faith. He seems to indicate that our good works shore up and strengthen our faith.

 

[HankZ]

Repentance is Turning Away From Sin. It does not necessarily mean belief, which is why the AND is in Repent and believe in the Gospel. Repent and be baptized.

Jesus plus anything takes from the work of Christ.

 

[NotWorthy]

Jesus plus anything takes from the work of Christ.

Where does it say this in Scripture?

 

[HankZ]

By Faith AND works. James, chapter 2 is rather poignantYour faith is not enough. Abraham’s Faith was completed by His Work.

Works follow faith. Abraham would not have had works if he didn’t have faith. He had works because of his faith, not to earn or keep salvation. He was already chosen.

 

[HankZ]

Where does it say this in Scripture?

Ephesians 2:8-9;
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that NOT OF YOURSELVES, it is the GIFT OF GOD; NOT AS A RESULT OF WORKS, so that no one may boast.

 

[Martin777]

Remember, these are the interpritations of the very entity that gathered and interpreted the Bible. Not mine.

and nothing here either right?

Romans CH2
5 By your stubbornness and impenitent heart, you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgment of God,

6 who will repay everyone according to his works: 3

7 eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works,
8 but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness.
Than please refer me to the “correct” interpretation from a credible source that you base your discharge of these verses from.

Ok, the important context is the entire letter to the Romans, at least the first 8 chapters. In 3 and 4 he says that justification is by faith, apart from any works of the law. Can it get any clearer than that? For the dull of hearing he even repeats it a couple of times. Then he goes on to show how God ensures He has a people who will do works for the right reason!!! —Because of a new nature, and a heart of gratitude rather than fear! The works flow when there is a regenerated individual! (By the way, note what God does to the fearful in Revelation!). The whole message of Romans 3-4 and Galatians (well, not the only message) is that telling someone they better do works to get accepted by God DOESN’T WORK!!! I think maybe the Catholic chirch still thinks it does work! (It definitely raises money!)

 

[MarkInOregon]

Good works is secondary. Salvation comes by faith alone. Hank–you do realize that the Bible does not say this don’t you? You realize that the Bible states quite clearly the oposite don’t you? Working to keep the salvation you have been given, is a works based salvation and is not what God offers us. Works are not done to keep salvation, but the result of already recieving salvation. If you are saved, it is a done deal. You also realize that the Bible does talk about working out your salvation? The Bible seems fairly clear that you can lose your salvation. If you can lose it by not working hard enough whos talking about this? You seem to be saying you don’t need to work at all (forgive me if I have your position wrong) and this seems clearly contradict the Bible. to keep it, that is no different from working to recieve it.

 

[HankZ]

MarkInOregon:
MarkinOregon

refer to post #55.

 

[MarkInOregon]

I thought I already addressed this. Just remember that we never understand a passage until we can harmonize it with all the rest of Scriptire. The Bible does not contradict itself. It only appears to at times on the surface. Jesus shared these words in front of people who were proud of being Jews, proud of their circumcision and their law-keeping. They needed to be woken up to what life is all about. It is about love. Loving God and loving man. The old system is “Do this or else!”. It doesn’t work. The new system is “I did it all for you and will live through you as a child of the King. Let me adopt you and you will be free to serve me out of an eternally greatful heart rather than out of the futile way of fear.”
Does that make sense?

How does this response answer or show that works are not a required part of the equation? Yes the Jews were keeping the Mosaic Law - they weren’t doing these works to “stangers” or to the least of their brothers (see Good Samaritan Story) - so when they come to Christ he says you didn’t do what was required. Its a passage about what is required of us now. Nowhere does the passage say we don’t have to do these things–because Christ died for us and adopted us. I don’t think anyone here is disagreeing that we have been adopted by Christ and that we serve him freely with a grateful heart – seeing Christ in all our brothers and sisters - and trying to do what is best for them.

 

[steve_b]

Works and faith, do go together as far as, you can “Show” your faith through good works, but **you are saved through faith. **

saved through faith working in love. [Gal 5:6]

hank:

You can have a saving faith before you do good works, but you cannot have good works before you have a saving faith.

If you don’t do good works you dont have a saving faith either.

hank:

You can have a tree before the fruit, but you cannot have fruit before you have the tree.

A fruit tree with no fruit is useless. It gets ripped up and burned.