The Catholic Church wrong? Part two

[MarkInOregon]

MarkinOregon

refer to post #55.

HankZ,

Thanks but how does this post prove your point? This is clearly in line with Catholic teaching. This verse does not say only through faith just as we are not saved only by works. See the book of James–we are not saved by faith alone. On the surface the passage seems to say – the grace and resulting faith are a gift from God and not the result of works – completely in line with Catholic teaching.

I need to work - so would need to look at the Ephesians quote in context – to answer more fully.

thanks

 

[HankZ]

saved through faith working in love. [Gal 5:6].

Different discussion.

If you don’t do good works you dont have a saving faith either…

The thief on the cross? Do you mean to say, Jesus had not the power to save him?

A fruit tree with no fruit is useless. It gets ripped up and burned.

Do you plant a tree, see no fruit and rip it from the ground? I should hope you give it time to mature in the new ground before tossing it into the fire.

 

[HankZ]

HankZ,

Thanks but how does this post prove your point? This is clearly in line with Catholic teaching. This verse does not say only through faith just as we are not saved only by works. See the book of James–we are not saved by faith alone. On the surface the passage seems to say – the grace and resulting faith are a gift from God and not the result of works – completely in line with Catholic teaching.

I need to work - so would need to look at the Ephesians quote in context – to answer more fully.

thanks

How can it be without works if you say you must work for it? I feel like we are talking in a circle. I know it comes without works, but you have to work at it, can’t you see this does not make sense?’

 

[twb1621]

Ok, the important context is the entire letter to the Romans, at least the first 8 chapters. In 3 and 4 he says that justification is by faith, apart from any works of the law. Can it get any clearer than that? For the dull of hearing he even repeats it a couple of times. Then he goes on to show how God ensures He has a people who will do works for the right reason!!! —Because of a new nature, and a heart of gratitude rather than fear! The works flow when there is a regenerated individual! (By the way, note what God does to the fearful in Revelation!). The whole message of Romans 3-4 and Galatians (well, not the only message) is that telling someone they better do works to get accepted by God DOESN’T WORK!!! I think maybe the Catholic chirch still thinks it does work! (It definitely raises money!)

ok, then as I asked before -please refer me to the “correct” interpretation from a credible source that you base your discharge of these verses and Mathews verses from. That is all I am asking for.

 

[twb1621]

How does this response answer or show that works are not a required part of the equation? Yes the Jews were keeping the Mosaic Law - they weren’t doing these works to “stangers” or to the least of their brothers (see Good Samaritan Story) - so when they come to Christ he says you didn’t do what was required. Its a passage about what is required of us now. Nowhere does the passage say we don’t have to do these things–because Christ died for us and adopted us. I don’t think anyone here is disagreeing that we have been adopted by Christ and that we serve him freely with a grateful heart – seeing Christ in all our brothers and sisters - and trying to do what is best for them.

Thank you, perhaps your way of explaining will get us all further along…

 

[steve_b]

The thief on the cross? Do you mean to say, Jesus had not the power to save him?

Let’s look at it

The good thief

• is crucified with the other thief and Jesus. And he is going through agony
• Acknowledges he has done wrong and deserves punishment
• he acknowledges Jesus as God and rebukes the other thief for NOT acknowledging Jesus for who He is
• he perseveres till the end and asks Jesus for mercy
  He exibits faith under extreme duress, remorse for what he’s done, did good works in his defense of Jesus and perseveres till the end, and asks Jesus for Mercy. It’s ALL there.

hank:

Do you plant a tree, see no fruit and rip it from the ground? I should hope you give it time to mature in the new ground before tossing it into the fire.

It’s not a fruit tree of worth until it produces fruit. If something isn’t doing what God created it for, it gets ripped up and thrown away. Why else do you think Jesus cursed the fig tree?

 

[NotWorthy]

Works follow faith. Abraham would not have had works if he didn’t have faith. He had works because of his faith, not to earn or keep salvation. He was already chosen.

I believe with the first part, you do not have works if you don’t have faith. But the underlined point goes against what James right, for he says Abraham was justified by his works.

And what’s with the “chosen” line? Are you saying only the elect are going to heaven?

 

[NotWorthy]

The thief on the cross? Do you mean to say, Jesus had not the power to save him?

You know that no one believes Jesus has not the power. But how many of us are forced to testify for Jesus while suffering on the Cross. You can’t place extraordinary circumstances (like our good thief) and call it a normative situation.

Do you plant a tree, see no fruit and rip it from the ground? I should hope you give it time to mature in the new ground before tossing it into the fire.

Well then, you’ll have to explain why Jesus killed the fig tree. I understand their is a lot of symbolism going on, but the fig tree was killed because it did not have fruit, even though it was out of season.

 

[HankZ]

You know that no one believes Jesus has not the power. But how many of us are forced to testify for Jesus while suffering on the Cross. You can’t place extraordinary circumstances (like our good thief) and call it a normative situation.

Well then, you’ll have to explain why Jesus killed the fig tree. I understand their is a lot of symbolism going on, but the fig tree was killed because it did not have fruit, even though it was out of season.

I know Jesus alone, is sufficient for salvation. Do you also believe that? I need nothing but Jesus to have salvation, but I am understanding that you are saying He is not enough with out your work added to His work. Even with the thief, who was not good, has been explained that he needed Jesus attoning work, plus his own work added together to be saved.

 

[twb1621]

I know Jesus alone, is sufficient for salvation. Do you also believe that? I need nothing but Jesus to have salvation, but I am understanding that you are saying He is not enough with out your work added to His work. Even with the thief, who was not good, has been explained that he needed Jesus attoning work, plus his own work added together to be saved.

We all know Jesus is enough for our salvation. Do you understand its on us? Faith (our faith) alone is not enough. And disregarding scripture that supports that and only accepting what you want is NOT ENOUGH… We are trying to point out that you are picking and choosing what fits you most comfortably. That is only taking for granted the blood Jesus did spill and the suffering He endured. Think about it…

 

[NotWorthy]

I know Jesus alone, is sufficient for salvation. Do you also believe that?

Jesus’s death is sufficient to redeem us. We just need to participate in order to maintain our Salvation. Faith alone will get us nowhere.

I need nothing but Jesus to have salvation, but I am understanding that you are saying He is not enough with out your work added to His work. Even with the thief, who was not good, has been explained that he needed Jesus attoning work, plus his own work added together to be saved.

Let me ask you something, if faith is all we need, why is the road so narrow?

And what about all of Jesus’ teachings on Judgment - everyone of them teaches that we will be judged on our works.

And even Revelation 20 talks of this:

I saw the dead, the great and the lowly, standing before the throne, and scrolls were opened. Then another scroll was opened, the book of life. The dead were judged according to their deeds, by what was written in the scrolls. 13 The sea gave up its dead; then Death and Hades gave up their dead. All the dead were judged according to their deeds. 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the pool of fire. (This pool of fire is the second death.) 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the pool of fire.

 

[Martin777]

How does this response answer or show that works are not a required part of the equation? Yes the Jews were keeping the Mosaic Law - they weren’t doing these works to “stangers” or to the least of their brothers (see Good Samaritan Story) - so when they come to Christ he says you didn’t do what was required. Its a passage about what is required of us now. Nowhere does the passage say we don’t have to do these things–because Christ died for us and adopted us. I don’t think anyone here is disagreeing that we have been adopted by Christ and that we serve him freely with a grateful heart – seeing Christ in all our brothers and sisters - and trying to do what is best for them.

Bro-What part of…“A man is justified by faith apart from ANY works of the Law” …do you not understand? (And he repeats it numerous times!) Do you think if you wait long enough those verses will change? By the way, I’m limited right now…sitting in the intermission between Little Big Town and Carrie Underwood!

 

[NotWorthy]

Bro-What part of…“A man is justified by faith apart from ANY works of the Law” …do you not understand? (And he repeats it numerous times!)

Two comments:
a) Bro-What do “Works of the Law” have to do with Good Works, such as those described in the parable of the Sheep and the Goats? Apples and oranges, man!
b) What part of “See how a person is justified by works and NOT by faith alone” do you not understand?

Do you think if you wait long enough those verses will change? By the way, I’m limited right now…sitting in the intermission between Little Big Town and Carrie Underwood!

No, your logic is faulty in assuming that the Judaic Ritual Laws are just as useless as doing Good Works.

 

[steve_b]

Bro-What part of…"A man is justified by faith apart from ANY works of the Law" …do you not understand?

You do understand that works of the law, are NOT the same as good works.

 

[Cinette]

Attention to all Protestants - especially those who were on The Catholic Church is wrong - Part One.

You will remember Ag_not’s challenge? The thread was ended before you got a chance to respond.

Well here is your chance to respond. Ag_not started a thread and this is the OP

**The Challenge:

Give me ONE example of something the Catholic church teaches, that is AGAINST Scripture. Read that again. Carefully. A SINGLE teaching, by the Catholic Church, that is AGAINST, or in other words, ANTI - Biblical.

I believe there is none. That is partly why I believe that the Catholic Church is the one true apostolic church, founded on Christ, and protected for all times against being overwhealmed by Hell.

However, I am not yet confirmed or baptised.

If you really believe my soul is in danger, then show me just ONE area of teaching by the Catholic Church that flies in the face of Scripture, and I will immediately quit RCIA. I will pm someone here we can trust, Fathers number, so he can confirm I have quit RCIA.

I have a very open mind, and question everything. Even though I believe, I have not stopped questioning and dont believe I ever will as it’s not my nature. So show me.

Now, discussion.

The rules are, we are polite and charitable at all times. At NO point will name calling or insults be tolerated in this thread. Vearing too far off topic will be redirected back to the issue at hand. You’ll get a warning for being rude, beligerant, uncharitable, dishonest, insulting, persisting with a derailing issue, etc. 3 warnings and you disqualify yourself from taking part any further in this thread. The same rules apply to me. Humor is encouraged, but not sarcism. Over to you guys**

There is no reason why you should not make your case right here on this thread. After all the Thread is called The Catholic Church wrong?

So…here is your chance to prove it. And…as Ag_not said this is also your opportunity to “save her soul”. How can you resist such an opportunity?

 

[guanophore]

I find this pasage to be an example of God’s grace given through Christ to His elect. Those who are saved are going to be given the right to be His sheep without understanding why. They even ask Him, when have we done these things? The deeds spoken of in this pasage, He is not directly saying that they were done by each and everyone of those that are saved. It may be He is putting the sheep in a group and they are judged in that group, collectively. Those who refused Him are unable to to good deeds so they are also judged as a group, collectively.
Obviously the deeds He is speaking of are important, but you first have to have total faith in Jesus as your Savior before you can qualify for the sheep’s judgement(or pardon.)
HankZ

The sheep know that they did good deeds. They may not have realized they did it for “Him”, since “He” is veiled in the flesh of those in need, and not revealed in His glory. Yes, He is saying that each one will be judged by his deeds. However, what you have noted here is Catholic Teaching. first, you have to have faith in Jesus as Saviour before you can be a “sheep” or do any good deeds of value. Catholics call this being in a state of grace, or right relationship with God. When one is not in a state of grace, no amount of good deeds are of any eternal value.

 

[guanophore]

Well here’s a couple of thoughts on that. First, I think prior to the cross and resurrection, Jesus was still trying to get the Pharisees and other Jews to understand that they fall short. That their righteousness doesn’t match up. You can’t get a person saved until they know they are lost.

I agree, however, are you saying this passage does not apply to Gentiles?

Secondly, nothing in that verse contradicts salvation by grace through faith. Genuine saving faith produces good works. “You will know a tree by its fruit.”

Absolutely! This is Catholic Teaching. We are saved by grace, through faith, for the purpose of doing the good works that God has prepared beforehand.

Did you know that there are a lot of good works that will be burned up at the Bema (judgement) seat of Christ ("wood, hay and stubble") because they were done for the wrong motives--either selfish gain or out of fear?!  But genuine faith works, or it is dead!

Yes, Catholics consider these “works” to be done when one is not in a state of grace, faithless works, those that one depends upon to “earn” their way into heaven.

 

[guanophore]

Our good deeds are not a natural result of our faith. They are our faith working through our Love. They are part of what we are judged for, as is evidenced in numerous parables.

Well, yes and no. I think “natural” perhaps not, but 'supernatural". Good deeds flow from authentic faith in God. Fruit does not “force” itself to grow, it grows naturally from a healthy tree. I agree that these works are part of the judgement, but I also think that Jesus is trying to show us that, when we are properly connnected to the vine, we will, by our new nature created by the HS, produce these fruits.

 

[twb1621]

Bro-What part of…“A man is justified by faith apart from ANY works of the Law” …do you not understand? (And he repeats it numerous times!) Do you think if you wait long enough those verses will change? By the way, I’m limited right now…sitting in the intermission between Little Big Town and Carrie Underwood!

Martin777,

the problem with your interpretations first is due to the fact you throw out everything in scripture that speaks of any obligation on our part to choose to do as we are asked and only accept what fits your philosophy. the second is (as you describ it) it removes man’s free will to choose to perform good works to others in the love and example Jesus gave us with the premise we are so filled with the Holy Spirit due to our being saved that we can’t help but to do these good works and therefore we are not dependant on performing them toward the retention of our salvation we just do them without thought because the Holy Spirit drives us to doing them. If this were true, how could Jesus possibly credit anyone at judgment for any works they performed and why would He. This would mean He died for our sins forever, gave us the holy spirit to make sure we couldn’t help but do what He taught us to do and although we still have the free will to commit sin, we’re already forgiven for any sins we might commit because we have faith in Him. But then, if we still have the free will to choose to commit sin or not, why would we not have the free will to choose to perform good works or not to. Would you say when we commit serious sin the Holy Spirit remains in us? Faith is the foundation, no doubt. However, we receive Grace of the Holy Spirit from the performance of good works, the more the works the more the grace, the more the grace the closer to holiness a person becomes. Grace through the Holy Spirit is God’s gift to us for the works we do in the love of others in His name.

 

[guanophore]

No argument there, but that doesn’t prove your point. We all know that you can’t earn your way into heaven. But just because you have saving faith, doesn’t mean you will have good works.

I think that it is easily shown in scripture that saving faith does, indeed, produce good works. If it does not, then it is not a faith that saves. You demonstrated that in your reference to the book of James.

Good works is secondary. Salvation comes by faith alone. Working to keep the salvation you have been given, is a works based salvation and is not what God offers us. Works are not done to keep salvation, but the result of already recieving salvation. If you are saved, it is a done deal. If you can lose it by not working hard enough to keep it, that is no different from working to recieve it.

Where in Scripture does it say “good works is secondary”?

Where in Scripture does it say “salvation comes by faith alone”?

You have made a logical error. You say “working to keep the salvation you have been given is a works based salvation”. This is not the case. If one is given a free gift, then leaves that gift by the side of the road so it can get stolen, this does not mean that the gift was not free in the first place. It may mean that the recipient had little value for it, and thought it could be thrown away, but it does not change the Source.

Furthermore, the ability to “lose” that gift through neglect does not change it’s Source either. The fact that something can take away life does not imply that the something can give life. For example, a bullet can take my life if someone shoots me in the head or heart. It would be a logical error to imply that the bullet could also give life.