The Catholic Church wrong? Part two

[guanophore]

The hardest thing for a person to acknowledge is that the most important thing they have placed their total self into in life is bottomless. To believe in their salvation and especially to believe one has been “born again” with head held high in proclamation and then be confronted with reality that they have been mislead has got to be heart breaking and certainly cause for denial. Then when presented with support for Truth that can not be credibly disputed, I feel for people in this situation. But we can only provide the seed and pray for our Lord’s mercy and grace to guide them on their path to Him. Hopefully the Hanks out there will continue asking questions but with a more open ear as time goes on.

You are right, it is mind boggling and emotionally very thrashing. I had left the Catholic Church and been in Protestant circles for about 10 years when I decided to attend Seminary. While there, I took an historical theology class and read the Early FAthers for the first time. It was like being hit with a two by four. Needless to say…I am back.

 

[MariaG]

The hardest thing for a person to acknowledge is that the most important thing they have placed their total self into in life is bottomless. To believe in their salvation and especially to believe one has been “born again” with head held high in proclamation and then be confronted with reality that they have been mislead has got to be heart breaking and certainly cause for denial. Then when presented with support for Truth that can not be credibly disputed, I feel for people in this situation. But we can only provide the seed and pray for our Lord’s mercy and grace to guide them on their path to Him. Hopefully the Hanks out there will continue asking questions but with a more open ear as time goes on.

Yet if they were baptized, they are born again. The Church acknowledges those who through no fault of their own are raised in these Christian faiths are separated brethren.

So while there are lies there, they also have a critical portion of the Truth that we cannot fail to acknowledge lest we deny part of the body of Christ.

 

[a_burger]

One day I was talking to someone about starting their salvation process. I know there are many who believe in once saved always saved. This person suddenly remembered that twenty years previous they had made an alter call. How can anyone even consider that is salvation? Again we as Catholics must present Scripture for our debate. I will present the following Scripture from the NIV Bible- a Protestant Bible. Please read along in John 15:5-7. Jesus says, ‘If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.’ How clear can it be? If you decide not to follow him you will not do well later in fron of the White throne. Conversely good deeds done outside of faith in Christ are like dirty rags. It says in the book of James that faith without good deeds is dead. It says what it says. This is not to say we can’t have our ups and downs. Martin Luther wanted to get the book of James taken from the New Testament because of the previous verse. Don’t the liberals today want to take verses out of the Bible. Read about the Jesus Seminar. You do not have a license to sin because you have accepted Christ as your Saviour.

 

[guanophore]

You do not have a license to sin because you have accepted Christ as your Saviour.

Perhaps that depends upon one’s point of view?

“Be a sinner and sin boldly, but believe and rejoice in Christ even more boldly, for he is victorious over sin, death, and the world. As long as we are here [in this world] we have to sin. This life is not the dwelling place of righteousness, but, as Peter says, we look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells. It is enough that by the riches of God’s glory we have come to know the Lamb that takes away the sin of the world. No sin will separate us from the Lamb, even though we commit fornication and murder a thousand times a day.”

Martin Luther
August 1, 1521 to Phillip Melanchthon

 

[a_burger]

So we do have a license to sin. It sounds like you made your decision not to have Christ remain in you. I was raised Lutheran and spent many years at the Evangeliical Free Church. The Free Church will tell you the same thing about that statement (to sin boldly) that the Catholics would. When you go to the White Throne Judgment and you tell the Lord that one there will be a lot of people laughing but I will assure you that you won’t be one of them. I will challenge you to do the following. Ask the Holy Spirit to be your teacher.(paraclete) Listen to him and SAVE your Soul. Yes, I admit I used to think like that somewhat. Swallow your pride and save your soul.

 

[MariaG]

So we do have a license to sin. It sounds like you made your decision not to have Christ remain in you. I was raised Lutheran and spent many years at the Evangeliical Free Church. The Free Church will tell you the same thing about that statement (to sin boldly) that the Catholics would. When you go to the White Throne Judgment and you tell the Lord that one there will be a lot of people laughing but I will assure you that you won’t be one of them. I will challenge you to do the following. Ask the Holy Spirit to be your teacher.(paraclete) Listen to him and SAVE your Soul. Yes, I admit I used to think like that somewhat. Swallow your pride and save your soul.

That quote was from Martin Luther. He is the one that says to sin boldly, not the Catholic Church. Maybe you should more carefully read what Luther, your church founder actually wrote, since it appears you disagree with Luther.

 

[joe370]

I am a former Lutheran and was very surprised to hear some of the things Martin Luther did and said, but I am not hear sling mud just to confirm what MariaG said.

Martin Luther said:

*“Be a sinner, and sin boldly, but believe more boldly still. Sin shall not drag us away from Him, even should we commit fornication or murder thousands and thousands of times a day.” *(Luther, M. Letter of August 1, 1521 as quoted in Stoddard, p.93).

He seemed to overlook what the Book of Hebrews taught:

For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries (Hebrews 10:26-27).

 

[a_burger]

Who said I was Lutheran. I am Catholic. Try reading what I said again. I said was raised Lutheran. I didn’t become a Christian until I became Catholic. I do have a lot of good to say about the Anabaptists. Most of the Protestant churches don’t quite uinderstand the serious of sin. The Catholics and Anabaptists do. I just wish the Anabaptists would have a better understanding of the Eucharist.

 

[MariaG]

Who said I was Lutheran. I am Catholic. Try reading what I said again. I said was raised Lutheran. I didn’t become a Christian until I became Catholic. I do have a lot of good to say about the Anabaptists. Most of the Protestant churches don’t quite uinderstand the serious of sin. The Catholics and Anabaptists do. I just wish the Anabaptists would have a better understanding of the Eucharist.

Looks like we both could have read things a little closer

 

[benedictus2]

Looks like we both could have read things a little closer

I was about to adjudicate there and say Hey, guano, burger, mariag, check out each other’s profiles before replying.

 

[benedictus2]

I am a former Lutheran and was very surprised to hear some of the things Martin Luther did and said, but I am not hear sling mud just to confirm what MariaG said.

Martin Luther said:

"Be a sinner, and sin boldly, but believe more boldly still. Sin shall not drag us away from Him, even should we commit fornication or murder thousands and thousands of times a day." (Luther, M. Letter of August 1, 1521 as quoted in Stoddard, p.93).

He seemed to overlook what the Book of Hebrews taught:

For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries (Hebrews 10:26-27).

Yes, another clear instance of going against the Bible. It beats me how one can claim Sola Scriptura and then violate that same Scripture one is vehemently holding as the sole basis of Truth.

The devil’s influence is very evident in this onel Talking with a fork tongue.

I was about to ask guano whether Luther really said that and you just confirmed it.

And this is the man that millions of people venerate as a beacon of light?!!

 

[MariaG]

I was about to adjudicate there and say Hey, guano, burger, mariag, check out each other’s profiles before replying.

Oh yeah

 

[twb1621]

Hey Ben, would you believe I can not find that web site? I am still looking for it so don’t give up on me yet…

 

[benedictus2]

Hey Ben, would you believe I can not find that web site? I am still looking for it so don’t give up on me yet…

Give up on you? No way! You’re much too reliable to my thinking. I did quick search too and can’t find it either. It is such a lovely take on the Madonna. Maybe our Blessed Mother thinks I already have too many holy pictures

 

[benedictus2]

Hey Ben, would you believe I can not find that web site? I am still looking for it so don’t give up on me yet…

Just tried again and found it!!!

 

[guanophore]

So we do have a license to sin. It sounds like you made your decision not to have Christ remain in you.

Welcome to CAF, a burger. What makes you think I have made such a decision?

When you go to the White Throne Judgment and you tell the Lord that one there will be a lot of people laughing but I will assure you that you won’t be one of them. I will challenge you to do the following. Ask the Holy Spirit to be your teacher.(paraclete) Listen to him and SAVE your Soul. Yes, I admit I used to think like that somewhat. Swallow your pride and save your soul.

Do you think it was prideful of me to post Luthers’ quote?

 

[benedictus2]

Welcome to CAF, a burger. What makes you think I have made such a decision?

Do you think it was prideful of me to post Luthers’ quote?

I think burger thought that by posting Luther’s quote you might be an andvocate of his theology.

That’s why I said it is always good to check people’s profiles before replying. Although I have wondered sometimes at the stand that some Catholics take in this forum.

 

[a_burger]

I think I must have lost my mind when I read the quote. The more I read about Luther the more I wonder about him. Great quote and I will certainly use it. If any of you want to go to the website for the the Lutheran Church the Missouri Synod. They proclaim the lines of popes to be the antichrist. Of course Martin Luther said that also.

 

[benedictus2]

I think I must have lost my mind when I read the quote. The more I read about Luther the more I wonder about him. Great quote and I will certainly use it. If any of you want to go to the website for the the Lutheran Church the Missouri Synod. They proclaim the lines of popes to be the antichrist. Of course Martin Luther said that also.

Well, what else would you expect from the man who would do violence to the Word of God by trying to alter it.

 

[joe370]

**Just thought I would share this with any non-Catholics at this forum, and see what they thought, since Mike from something somethinglight.net, since we are not allowed to use real names --doesn’t allow anyone to refute his claims, even though he bashes the C.C. **

This is the article, entitled: Paul’s Gospel In Catholic Tradition?

Gal 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel.Gal 1:7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed (anathema).

Gal 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed (anathema).

All very true!!!

That tells me to test what is taught by what Paul taught. Now, outside of scripture, where exactly does Catholic Apostolic Tradition quote the unwritten words of any of Paul’s teaching?

**Is Paul the final arbiter on all matters; why did he then defer to the authority of first Peter, James and the elders? What that tells me, is to listen to the Apostolic Church that St. Paul was an integral part.

If I tell you to see the early church fathers, you will just tell me –how can I know that these ECF quotes are the unwritten words of any of Paul’s teachings? And I can’t! All I can say with certainty, is trust Jesus when He said, nothing would ever vanquish His Apostolic Church! If His Church fails, we are are all in Big trouble. **

Where does Paul teach that Mary was immaculately conceived?

Where does Paul teach that Mary was assumed into heaven?

Where does Paul teach prayer to Mary or other supposed saints?

Where does Paul teach Mary is the mediatrix of all grace?

Where does Paul teach the veneration of images?

Where does Paul teach Sunday keeping has replaced the Sabbath?

**So, if Paul doesn’t mention the preceding teachings of the C.C., you are not going to believe them? Paul also said: “…I have shewed you all things, how that so labouring ye ought to support the weak, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, It is more blessed to give than to receive. No where in the New Testament are those words spoken by Jesus or any of the other Apostles. Does that mean Matthew, Mark, Luke, John etc. can’t be trusted because they didn’t teach that it is more blessed to give than to receive? According to your logic, it does!

Jesus said to His Apostolic church, "I have yet many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you. All that the Father has is mine; therefore I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to you.”**

**Did the Holy Spirit stop guiding Jesus’ Church into all truth, once all of the Apostles died? If so Jesus lied when He said, “…and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.”Jesus Church cold never have survived without the guidance and protection of the Holy Spirit; it would have been nothing more than another man-made church. —when He said, “Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age." --when He said, I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

If Jesus can’t fail and He can’t, and Jesus’ Apostolic Church is being guided by the Holy Spirit into all truth, in perpetuity, then you are wrong my friend regarding the preceding doctrines of the C.C.! Where does that leave your premise?
**…