The Catholic Church

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ralphinal said:
ckempston,
Is it acceptable for a Christian to hold that Jesus is not God?
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No.

John 8:58 “I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”
John 20:28 Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”
Is it acceptable for a Christian to say that we have more than one God?
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No.

1 Corinthians 8:6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

Eph 4:4-6 There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to one hope when you were called— one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.
Is it acceptable for a Christian to say that the Father IS the Son and IS the Holy Spirit?
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No.

John 5:19 Jesus gave them this answer: "I tell you the truth, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does.
 
ckempston said:
No.

John 8:58 “I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”
John 20:28 Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”

No.

1 Corinthians 8:6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

Eph 4:4-6 There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to one hope when you were called— one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

No.

John 5:19 Jesus gave them this answer: "I tell you the truth, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does.
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You gotta believe in the Trinity.
 
ckempston said:
Well, this gets to the very basis of my disagreement with Catholicism. There’s no need to define it any further than what is explicitly stated in Scripture. Because what happens is you end up explaing your explanations, then explaining your explanation to your explanation, ad infinitum. This is way too far from the simple faith held by the first Christians.
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Yes but then if some things are not defined you end up with what you have in protestantism which by the way are still fighting over many of the same issues already resolved by the 6th Century. All you have to do is go to a protestant board and see my meaning. The church had to say the gnostics were wrong. They had to say Nestorius was wrong. How? By defining what they meant or else you would have a very permisive faith boardering on the B’hai-ism.
 
sambos671 said:
Yes but then if some things are not defined you end up with what you have in protestantism which by the way are still fighting over many of the same issues already resolved by the 6th Century. All you have to do is go to a protestant board and see my meaning. The church had to say the gnostics were wrong. They had to say Nestorius was wrong. How? By defining what they meant or else you would have a very permisive faith boardering on the B’hai-ism.
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Examples? And are they salvation issues?
 
ckempston said:
Examples? And are they salvation issues?
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Examples of what discussions protestants are having on their message boards? As far as salvation issue you and I first have to agree what is meant by that. Are you just singling out Justification or everything inlcuded in Salvation?
 
sambos671 said:
Examples of what discussions protestants are having on their message boards? As far as salvation issue you and I first have to agree what is meant by that. Are you just singling out Justification or everything inlcuded in Salvation?
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Never mind. It’s not really worth discussing as I will end up agreeing with Catholics over Protestants anyway.
 
sambos671 said:
It’s my own term. I was Catholic to begin with, left the church and was whipped back in. I’m not really a swim team member.
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I see. Since I grew up Catholic (poorly catechesized), I suppose I would be on the same team were I to convert.
 
ckempston said:
I see. Since I grew up Catholic (poorly catechesized), I suppose I would be on the same team were I to convert.
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Yeah, that was my problem too. And I blamed it all on the church when my family was to blame. But being 15 I give myself some leeway.
 
phil8888 said:
God doesn’t have a God, God IS God.
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Not according to that passage. You missed my point, apparently. The Trinity, while probably correct insofar as divinity can be explained using human language, likely falls far short of the reality. The point of the passage is that Jesus Christ has a God. His God is the Father. Paul says this explicitly. How do you explain that? (HINT: You don’t, that’s the point).
 
ckempston said:
Not according to that passage. You missed my point, apparently. The Trinity, while probably correct insofar as divinity can be explained using human language, likely falls far short of the reality. The point of the passage is that Jesus Christ has a God. His God is the Father. Paul says this explicitly. How do you explain that? (HINT: You don’t, that’s the point).
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Nobody does. Jesus is of the same substance. Jesus is subject to the Father. Jesus calls on the Father “Eli Eli” My God My God. It is the mystery of the trinity. And I think what you mean when you say reality you mean full understanding as God understands it. In which case we can’t because we’re men and it’s a mystery how the Trinity works.
 
sambos671 said:
Nobody does. Jesus is of the same substance. Jesus is subject to the Father. Jesus calls on the Father “Eli Eli” My God My God. It is the mystery of the trinity. And I think what you mean when you say reality you mean full understanding as God understands it. In which case we can’t because we’re men and it’s a mystery how the Trinity works.
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Right, I agree with this. But this is precisely why I would be hesitant to make affirmation of the Trinity a test of one’s Christianity; however, as I pointed out, if someone denied the Trinity, I would be concerned and seek clarification. If they affirmed the parts of the Trinity doctrine, but were simply uncomfortable affirming something they don’t understand and is not explicitly taught in Scripture, I wouldn’t call that person a heretic.
 
ckempston said:
Right, I agree with this. But this is precisely why I would be hesitant to make affirmation of the Trinity a test of one’s Christianity; however, as I pointed out, if someone denied the Trinity, I would be concerned and seek clarification. If they affirmed the parts of the Trinity doctrine, but were simply uncomfortable affirming something they don’t understand and is not explicitly taught in Scripture, I wouldn’t call that person a heretic.
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What about the trinity is not taught in scripture? Scripture obviously refers to Jesus as God. Scripture also indicates that the Holy Spirit is God and operates as a person. Scripture obvioiusly refers to the Father as God. The scripture refers to each working as a person. Scripture also indicates there is only one God. There is no aspect of the trinitarian doctrine that cannot be supported by scripture.
 
sambos671 said:
What about the trinity is not taught in scripture? Scripture obviously refers to Jesus as God. Scripture also indicates that the Holy Spirit is God and operates as a person. Scripture obvioiusly refers to the Father as God. The scripture refers to each working as a person. Scripture also indicates there is only one God. There is no aspect of the trinitarian doctrine that cannot be supported by scripture.
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What I mean is that it places a distinct limit on God. The fact is that we do not know, nor are we capable of knowing, the true nature of God as He knows it, as you have pointed out.

EDIT to add: I pointed out a passage that poses difficulty for the Trinity doctrine. God has a God.
 
ckempston said:
What I mean is that it places a distinct limit on God. The fact is that we do not know, nor are we capable of knowing, the true nature of God as He knows it, as you have pointed out.
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I don’t think Trinitarian Doctrine limits that. It does limit views that Jesus’ humanity was swallowed up by this divinity and anything else that is not supported by the doctrine. I believe the doctrine is a bare bones belief about God’s nature that can be expressed but the mystery continues. In other words you can build upon the belief established in trinitarian doctrine however to believe something contradictory to it would mean you’re talking about something else. God’s nature as he knows it is something we can contemplate for eternity.
 
As a rule, the definition of doctrine came after conflict or heresy about it. Generally, it was to say what it was not, not what it was.

For example, the Trinity was defined not so much to say what God is, or Jesus, or the Holy Spirit, but to say what He is not.
 
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