The Catholic Cindy Sheehan

[shockerfan]

Debunkerman:

Clearly you have not heard the words of Cindy Sheehan. Can you provide quotes from Cindy Sheehan to support your statement that she preaches hate?

There have numerous threads in this forum about the “loving” (sarcasm intended) words of Ms. Sheehan.

Simply do a search, type in “Cindy Sheehan”, and you will find plenty of links to the wonderful things she has said.

You have a total of 7 or so posts in this forum…so you probably were not around when those forum discussions took place.

 

[soccerDad]

Tibbar:

I believe that your assessment of the positions of Cindy Sheehan, and the above mentioned Popes is quite accurate. Some may ask: “Why is this so?” In order to understand this we must further examine the Roman Catholic world view .

Roman Catholics are “process” Christians. They are constantly told how to do things in order to be pleasing to God. They are taught to view conversion as a process. They do not accept the finished work of Christ, completed, once for all, at Calvary. For the Roman Catholic, people are weakened by sin, not totally deficient in and of themselves. Catholics believe a person must achieve sanctification by “cooperation” with the grace of God. This is done through outward works of merit by which the person actually becomes objectively good and holy.

For the Catholic, it is not faith in Christ alone that saves, but an inner process that leads one to salvation. Catholics are told they must “offer it up,” or “give their lives to Christ.” Such an understanding is nonsensical to the Christian that understands that salvation in Christ is a free gift to which nothing can be added, plain and simple.

Cindy Sheehan, Edward M. Kennedy, the above mentioned Popes, etc., all follow this maxim. They all believe that by standing up against the War on Terror, they are doing something noble in the sight of God that will help them become objectively holy and hopefully merit eternal salvation. They are not trusting in Christ alone and His finished work on Calvary in behalf of all who would believe on Him.

The only way we can “be perfect” as our “Heavenly Father is perfect,” is to accept the perfection that is our Heavenly Father’s, that of Christ’s perfect sacrifice. Only then can we say, “I am a man in Christ. I do not sin. Old things have passed away. Behold, all things are new.”

Tibbar; I disagree. This sounds alot like protestant evangelizations I have heard. Born Again? Calvary Baptist Church? I had to look at your profile after that, but it did not tell me anything.

With regard to Ms. Sheehan and the Catholic World View, I am curious whether the Church has an active ministry to those who are in the public eye. This would seem like a good idea, now that she is more a public figure, she cannot help but represent Catholics in some way, as do Supreme Court nominees, actors, etc. This surely brings more reponsibilities, and it might help for us as a Church to extend our support and help.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Debunkerman:

How about you, have you formed you opinions based on what you have personally heard Cindy Sheehan say? What have you ever heard Cindy Sheehan speak about for any length of time?

Mr Debunkerman.

1. This is a news forum. As such the only requirement is that we provide links to the webpages to which we refer. This we have done. There have been threads on Ms Sheehan before. It is contingent on you to read those threads. My thoughts are set out there. I have very very little else to add to what I have already said.
2. As for personally hearing Ms Sheehan speak. The Gutenberg Press was invented some hundreds of years ago. I do not believe that personally attending a newsmaker is a requirement anymore for research. It if it is, then none of us would be able to comment on the thoughts of anyone who died over a generation ago.
3. Ms Sheehan’s use of profane language and namecalling imho speaks for itself, whether I have heard her speak personally, whether I have read extended writings of hers, or whether I have ‘merely’ read numerous newsbites quoting her. This is a Catholic Forum. We have had discussions about guidelines about referring to newsmakers who use such language. We ourselves are not allowed to speak as she has spoken.
4. One of my degrees was in English Lit. One learns there to be discerning in what one spends time reading. After reading what I have read of Ms Sheehan, I am afraid her thoughts do not quite make it onto the plane of Mr Faulkner whose words have been whispering to me from the floods in Mississippi.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Debunkerman:

You have changed the subject from the truth. The previous statement was, “I believe that Cindy Sheehan’s position on America’s invasion of Iraq is pretty much the same as that of Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI.”

That statement is true.

No, that statement is your opinion.

To substantiate your opinion you would have to provide supportive argumentation, references, and you would have to reconcile the opposing opinion.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Debunkerman:

Cindy Sheehan like the Pope questions the decision to go to war. Have you heard her speak?

I did not hear her say that. When did you hear her say that?

Clearly you have not heard the words of Cindy Sheehan. Can you provide quotes from Cindy Sheehan to support your statement that she preaches hate?

Everything you are asking has already been answered several times over in previous threads. It is my belief that this thread – the first post you have ever made on this forum – is flamer bait.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

soccerDad:

Tibbar; I disagree. This sounds alot like protestant evangelizations I have heard.

Tibbar would do well imho to spend some time on the Apologetics Forum. Most of what he has said is a strawman and bears no resemblance to what the Catholic Church actually teaches.

soccerDad:

With regard to Ms. Sheehan and the Catholic World View, I am curious whether the Church has an active ministry to those who are in the public eye…it might help for us as a Church to extend our support and help.

The Church does extend her support and help in the form of Confession and Communion. Ms Sheehan could also seek out counsel in the form of a spiritual director.

 

[Jabronie]

Debunkerman:

Cindy Sheehan like the Pope questions the decision to go to war. Have you heard her speak?

I did not hear her say that. When did you hear her say that?

Clearly you have not heard the words of Cindy Sheehan. Can you provide quotes from Cindy Sheehan to support your statement that she preaches hate?

Here are some of her apparently love-filled quotes.

“I don’t understand” the “Gold Star Moms who still support [Bush] and his war,” and “I … pray for these ‘continue the murder and mayhem’ moms to see the light.” [From her online diary, Aug. 27, 2005]

Saddam Hussein and Donald Rumsfeld are “kindred spirits.” [Online diary, Aug.24, 2005]

Her son “was killed for lies and for a … neo-con agenda to benefit Israel.”[From an e-mail to “Nightline,” March 15, 2005]

The president and “his destructive neo-con cabal” are “the biggest terrorist outfit in the world.” [From her essay, June 6, 2005]

“We are waging a nuclear war in Iraq right now. That country is contaminated. It will be contaminated for practically eternity now.” [San Francisco State University speech, April 27, 2005]

The Bush administration is “a bunch of f—ing hypocrites.” [San Francisco State University speech, April 27, 2005]

“If George Bush believes his rhetoric and his bulls–t, that this is a war for freedom and democracy, that he is spreading freedom and democracy, does he think every person he kills makes Iraq more free?” [San Francisco State University speech, April 27, 2005]

Bush “needs to sign up his two little party-animal girls. They need to go to this war.” [San Francisco State University speech, April 27, 2005]

“… [W]e have to impeach everybody from George Bush down to the person who picks up dog s–t in Washington. …” [San Francisco State University speech, April 27, 2005]

These came from an editorial by Larry Elder (worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=46579)

 

[MikeWM]

Debunkerman:

Anyone who has been quoted in the press knows, what is reported is often very different from reality.

Indeed. We had a whole thread here called ‘Now Cindy Sheehan is channeling Casey’ which was based on a NewsMax article which was a complete misrepresentation of what she had said. It is wise to be as careful as possible.

Mike

 

[abcdefg]

Jabronie:

Bush “needs to sign up his two little party-animal girls. They need to go to this war.” [San Francisco State University speech, April 27, 2005]

I want to bang my head. but I can’t seem to find it after reading this
:crying: :crying:

 

[Jaypeeto2]

All I know about Cindy Sheehan is that she is being promoted in her nationwide tours by numerous known Communist organizations and fanatical Anti-Israel and anti-US groups. I watched the “let’s hate America” rally live on C-Span last Saturday and was appalled at all the Marxist, anarchist, and generally godless people who made up the bulk of the crowds. Their speeches were as hateful as homemade sin. And these are the groups that promote Cindy Sheehan. I’m sorry she lost her son. 2,000 families have lost sons and daughters in Iraq, but few of them are hanging around with Communists, antiSemites, or anarchists, and few of them are publicly trashing the United States like Cindy Sheehan’s supporters do. There is no excuse for her choosing the likes of Marxists and other radical leftists to hang around with. If the war in Iraq is a bad thing, so are those people, in fact they are much worse. Love, Jaypeeto2

 

[StratusRose]

She spoke in the very same chapel I attend Mass in. If you want to read the coverage of the campus’ newspaper. Click on the link.
diamondbackonline.com/vnews/display.v/ART/2005/09/28/433a479f0da3b

I feel sorry for this woman. There is nothing more heart wrenching than a mother’s pain for a lost child. I don’t agree with the war, but now is not the time to pull out. We have to finish what we started.

 

[Debunkerman]

Jabronie-
Thank you for posting sevearl quotes from Cindy Sheehan. I found the entire transcript of her comments at S.F. State here www.discoverthenetwork.org/Articles/Stewartrally.htm

I was disappointed to see that she used profanity in that speech. When she spoke at the U of Maryland she was very softspoken and used no profanity. Sometimes people use profanity when they are angry. When I saw her speak, I did not get the impression she was inclined to use four-letter words. Clearly she has in the past and it is unfortunate. Clearly on that occasion she used bad judgement.

People chose to use some things she has said and disregard other things she has said. Would you agree it is best to look at the big picture before we form our opinion?

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Debunkerman:

Sometimes people use profanity when they are angry.

Anger does not excuse the profanity. The profanity and alleged slander is so frequent that it seems more the norm than the exception. Ms Sheehan has not apologized.

Debunkerman:

Clearly on that occasion she used bad judgement.

On that occasion? It is a case of more than one occasion. It is a case of many occasions.

Debunkerman:

People chose to use some things she has said and disregard other things she has said.

This is an unsupported statement and an unfair characterization of the discussion which has already taken place before you joined CA.

If you would take the trouble to review the threads which have already appeared on this forum, you will see that Ms Sheehan was given much more than her 15 minutes of fame. She was given a reasonable examination; people researched her statements, the money trail, the organizations to which she was affiliated.

Debunkerman:

Would you agree it is best to look at the big picture before we form our opinion?

Oh most certainly. And that has already been done on this forum. Diminishing and mischaracterizing the discussion which has already taken place does not strengthen your position.

 

[Debunkerman]

StratusRose:

She spoke in the very same chapel I attend Mass in. If you want to read the coverage of the campus’ newspaper. Click on the link.
diamondbackonline.com/vnews/display.v/ART/2005/09/28/433a479f0da3b

The Diamondback journalists could have transcribed and published the words of Cindy Sheehan. People came to hear her words. The campus paper published very little of what she said. Did you hear her speak? Did you hear about her son’s Catholic faith?

The anti-war politician present was an empty suit. No one came to listen to him or the faculty members present. The Catholic Sheehan had the presence of a genuine leader that I seldom see or hear. It is curious that The Catholic Standard, the Archdiocese of Washington newspaper ignored this Catholic leader speaking in their diocese. How could the Campus Ministry ignore this woman on their campus? Were the Catholics on campus, like me, ignorant that Cindy Sheehan and her son were Catholics?

 

[shockerfan]

Debunkerman:

The Diamondback journalists could have transcribed and published the words of Cindy Sheehan. People came to hear her words. The campus paper published very little of what she said. Did you hear her speak? Did you hear about her son’s Catholic faith?

The anti-war politician present was an empty suit. No one came to listen to him or the faculty members present. The Catholic Sheehan had the presence of a genuine leader that I seldom see or hear. It is curious that The Catholic Standard, the Archdiocese of Washington newspaper ignored this Catholic leader speaking in their diocese. How could the Campus Ministry ignore this woman on their campus? Were the Catholics on campus, like me, ignorant that Cindy Sheehan and her son were Catholics?

See post #27 in this thread. Hmmm…are these the quotes of a leader? What say you about these quotes??? The “Catholic Sheehan” is has morphed into a shill for the Democratic Party. Does her being Catholic give any legitimacy to her words? Should we now listen to “Catholic” Ted Kennedy on the issue of abortion? How about “Catholics for choice”…should they have legitimacy because they claim to be Catholic? How about John Kerry or Tom Daschle? They are both Catholics.

I oppose what Cindy Sheehan says, and I’m Catholic. The point is, here being Catholic is a big non-issue.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Debunkerman:

How could the Campus Ministry ignore this woman on their campus? Were the Catholics on campus, like me, ignorant that Cindy Sheehan and her son were Catholics?

Because what she promotes is not Catholic. Because the organizations which back her are anti-Catholic. Because bearing false witness against the people she opposes and using profane language violates Catholic teaching. She has marginalized herself by her own violent words toward others.

As for Ms Sheehan and Casey: there is a boundary problem here. Ms Sheehan is a human being separate and distinct from Casey. Each of these human beings has free will. Each of these human beings has exercised that free will by making diametrically opposed choices.

Ms Sheehan by her own choices, by her own words, and by her own actions has separated herself from the Church and from the choices of her son, Casey. For her to then attempt to ride on the coat tails of the Church and of her son, Casey, doesn’t even strike me as rational let alone impress me as an example of moral rectitude.

If you have come onto this forum to ‘singlemindedly promote an agenda’ then expect opposition. But if that agenda is to ‘teach’ us that Ms Sheehan’s ways are the ways of the Catholic Church or that the ways of the Catholic Church are wrong, then that is going to go over like a lead balloon.

Personally I wonder why you did not spend more time acquainting yourself with Catholic Answers before you used your first post to re-hash a subject which has already been thoroughly discussed.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Debunkerman:

The anti-war politician present was an empty suit.

Please take a look at the guidelines.

Debunkerman:

No one came to listen to him or the faculty members present.

‘No one’ has the appearances of an exaggeration and also of an *argumentum ad populum. *How many people came to hear her speak has no bearing on the legitimacy of what she actually said. Her words must be taken on their own merits not on how popular she is or is not.

 

[Jabronie]

Debunkerman:

The Diamondback journalists could have transcribed and published the words of Cindy Sheehan. People came to hear her words. The campus paper published very little of what she said. Did you hear her speak? Did you hear about her son’s Catholic faith?

The anti-war politician present was an empty suit. No one came to listen to him or the faculty members present. The Catholic Sheehan had the presence of a genuine leader that I seldom see or hear. It is curious that The Catholic Standard, the Archdiocese of Washington newspaper ignored this Catholic leader speaking in their diocese. How could the Campus Ministry ignore this woman on their campus? Were the Catholics on campus, like me, ignorant that Cindy Sheehan and her son were Catholics?

I don’t want someone with so much hate in her heart speaking for me as a Catholic.

 

[StratusRose]

Debunkerman:

The Diamondback journalists could have transcribed and published the words of Cindy Sheehan. People came to hear her words. The campus paper published very little of what she said. Did you hear her speak? Did you hear about her son’s Catholic faith?

The anti-war politician present was an empty suit. No one came to listen to him or the faculty members present. The Catholic Sheehan had the presence of a genuine leader that I seldom see or hear. It is curious that The Catholic Standard, the Archdiocese of Washington newspaper ignored this Catholic leader speaking in their diocese. How could the Campus Ministry ignore this woman on their campus? Were the Catholics on campus, like me, ignorant that Cindy Sheehan and her son were Catholics?

No one said the Diamondback was a good newspaper, in fact, it sucks.

 

[Debunkerman]

shockerfan:

Does her being Catholic give any legitimacy to her words? Should we now listen to “Catholic” Ted Kennedy on the issue of abortion? How about “Catholics for choice”…should they have legitimacy because they claim to be Catholic? How about John Kerry or Tom Daschle? They are both Catholics.

Unlike the politicians you named, Cindy Sheehan is opposed to killing. She said, “Killing people is wrong.” Pro-abortion polilticians like Ted Kennedy have not taken a position to end the killing in Iraq.

At the public gathering on the University of Maryland campus Cindy Sheehan sincerely gave witness to her son’s Catholic faith. I think this sets her apart from those you have named.

Unlike our political leaders Cindy Sheehan has publicly taken a position against war. Cindy Sheehan’s oppostion to the killing of innocent people is the right postion just as opposition to abortion is the right position. Catholics are right to oppose abortion. Sadly not all Catholics oppose abortion and not all Catholics support an end to the killing of innocent people in Iraq. John Kerry is one example.

The Catholic Cindy Sheehan is not a saint, but she is an exception by siding publicly with the Pope against the war. Many Catholics prefer to go along with whatever is popular as they did in England in 1535. St. John Fisher and St. Thomas More were the exceptions that sided with the Pope.