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Guest
I didn’t know she and her son are catholics. All I’ve heard was that she was a protester and her son was KIA. Must be tough to practice faith and be a soldier. Tim, fo. 29 ID, 629th M.I., Co. E L.R.S.
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Debunkerman
Guest
It may be natural to think that Cindy Sheehan’s son wanted to be a fighting soldier. But sometimes our deductive reasoning can draw the wrong conclusion if we begin with the wrong premise.
Some have concluded that there must have been a conflict between Cindy Sheehan and her son because he was a soldier and she is seeking an end to the war. It might appear the mother and son had deep differences.
From what I have learned Casey Sheehan joined the service under the belief that he would be a chaplain’s assistant. He did not want to kill anyone. When he was later told that position was not available he was told he could be a cook or mechanic. He chose mechanic.
I have long known that army recruiters are not always truthful. A high school history teacher always told us, “The army recruiter is the biggest damn liar in the world.” We did not understand until Vietnam. Then our classmates came home in pieces, in bags. I remember the same history teacher went with a father to identify the pieces of his dead son, our classmate, Terry O’Brien.
My understanding is that Cindy Sheehan’s son had first enlisted in 2000, before 9/11, and he re-enlisted when he was told he would not be sent to combat. He was a young man and he made a bad career choice and it cost him his life. I think his mother was telling the truth when she said, “Casey did not want to kill anyone.”
Her statement sounds incongruous for a soldier. But I don’t think we have been told the full story about the Cindy Sheehan and her son. Casey was not told the truth when he enlisted. We have not been told the full story about many things, including this war.
Some have made an issue of the fact that Cindy Sheehan used some profane language in anger. There is no excuse for her bad choice of words but I think it is an error to condemn this woman and her efforts to end more serious wrongs.
When I heard her speak her voice was soft and calm. She did not use any bad language. She sincerely wants to end the suffering of our soldiers and the people of Iraq. Cindy Sheehan wants our soldiers to come home to their families and this is something all of us should pray for.
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gilliam
Guest
Debunkerman,
This last post is highly speculative on your part. I have seen no evidence that he did not want to be a soldier and that he did not want to fight for his country. In fact just the opposite.
Soldiers of the 2nd Battalion, 5th Cavalry Regiment were ambushed with RPGs and pinned down and dying. While fighting off an attack himself, the Commander of the 2/5th, LTC Volesky, called for help. A Quick Reaction Force (QRF) was formed of volunteers - their mission was to go out and rescue the American troops.
Casey Sheehan’s Sergeant asked for volunteers. Sheehan had just returned from Mass. After Sheehan volunteered once, the Sergeant asked Sheehan again if he wanted to go on the mission. According to many reports (and according to his own mother), Casey responded, “Where my Chief goes, I go.”
The QRF was launched. Not long after entering the Mahdi area, the QRF was channeled onto a dead-end street where the roofs were lined with snipers, RPGs, and even some militia throwing burning tires onto the vehicles. The Mahdi blocked the exit and let loose with everything they had. Sheehan’s vehicle was hit with multiple RPGs and automatic-weapons fire. Specialist Casey Sheehan and Corporal Forest J. Jostes were killed. Seven men died with Casey Sheehan on Sunday, April 4th, 2004. It was Palm Sunday.
In recognition of Casey, the Catholic Chapel at Fort Hood, Texas (where Sheehan was stationed) named the Knights of Columbus chapter the “Casey Austin Sheehan Council”. Casey also received the Bronze Star for his Valor that day.
You should really get to know Casey.
He wasn’t a victom. He wasn’t someone someplace he didn’t want to be.
This last post is highly speculative on your part. I have seen no evidence that he did not want to be a soldier and that he did not want to fight for his country. In fact just the opposite.
Soldiers of the 2nd Battalion, 5th Cavalry Regiment were ambushed with RPGs and pinned down and dying. While fighting off an attack himself, the Commander of the 2/5th, LTC Volesky, called for help. A Quick Reaction Force (QRF) was formed of volunteers - their mission was to go out and rescue the American troops.
Casey Sheehan’s Sergeant asked for volunteers. Sheehan had just returned from Mass. After Sheehan volunteered once, the Sergeant asked Sheehan again if he wanted to go on the mission. According to many reports (and according to his own mother), Casey responded, “Where my Chief goes, I go.”
The QRF was launched. Not long after entering the Mahdi area, the QRF was channeled onto a dead-end street where the roofs were lined with snipers, RPGs, and even some militia throwing burning tires onto the vehicles. The Mahdi blocked the exit and let loose with everything they had. Sheehan’s vehicle was hit with multiple RPGs and automatic-weapons fire. Specialist Casey Sheehan and Corporal Forest J. Jostes were killed. Seven men died with Casey Sheehan on Sunday, April 4th, 2004. It was Palm Sunday.
In recognition of Casey, the Catholic Chapel at Fort Hood, Texas (where Sheehan was stationed) named the Knights of Columbus chapter the “Casey Austin Sheehan Council”. Casey also received the Bronze Star for his Valor that day.
You should really get to know Casey.
He wasn’t a victom. He wasn’t someone someplace he didn’t want to be.
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Debunkerman
Guest
I do not recall anyone here specifically calling service members warmongers or anyone telling you that you must enjoy killing.
I am unhappy that our service members are being placed in danger for reasons that were false. At the University of Maryland Cindy Sheehan said service members sent to Iraq deserved better armor and equipment. Sheehan gave a dollar amount, I think it was $45,000 to armor a humvee. She spoke about how some defense contractor companies receive loads of cash while our service men and women have to go without equipment needed to protect them. Please hold the friendly fire.
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gilliam
Guest
We are in Iraq now for all the right reasons. Why we went in to begin with is no longer the question. This is 2005, not 2003. If we leave now, we will have terrorists here blowing up our own markets in a matter of months.
She can funnel her speakers fees (which if I am not mistaken are $45,000 a speech) to the victoms of Katrina. We don’t need armor on humvees anymore. Thanks anyway. Again, this is 2005, not 2003 or 2004.
We didn’t have the armored humvees because they were not made to be direct combat vehicles. They were made to be back line vehicles. In war you ALWAYS have the unexpected, so you adapt. (Remember WWII tanks with sandbags on them, why do you think they were there? Because the armor was not enough to protect from German equipment). Pointing fingers at them and using that as an excuse not to fight terrorists is a red herring.
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Debunkerman
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gilliam-
As I said we have not been told the whole story Casey Sheehan and his mother. I am still finding new information.
People that have reached their conclusions already “for” or “against” the war often ignore any facts that do not support their conclusion.
For example, the link you gave above omits that Casey enlisted in the service to be a chaplain’s assiatant.
I was surprised when I heard Cindy Sheehan speak because that was the first time I had ever heard that she and her son were Catholic. The facts are available to us if we look for them. I went to hear her speak because I was curious. I was confident that what I read in the paper was not the full story.
I still do not know all the facts. I have learned some new things about the Sheehan family by being here.
Thank you for sharing information.
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gilliam
Guest
That’s fair. I don’t know all the story either. Unfortunately for those with inquiring minds, Casey’s father’s story has not been told. And those others close to Casey have not told their story either.
With that, I will leave this thread again. Casey’s life and death is not something I want drug into politics. At least not by me.
See you on other threads.
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Traditional_Ang
Guest
Debunkerman:
Like most public speakers, Ms. Sheehan tailors her speach to the audience. Polls show that large numbers of people in Maryland support the War in Iraq. The profanity and flaming rhetoric that was a “hit” in San francisco would have been disastrous in Maryland.
From your report, Ms. Sheehan obviously seems to know how to control her worse impulses when she’s around people who don’t necessarily agree with her.
I do wish that you had read the threads and links that were suggested before, then this wouldn’t have come as such a surprise.
I understand that your time is valuble, but so is everyone else’s. Please, if a couple of posters suggest that you do some research to acquiant yourself with the subject, take some time and do it instead of arguing about it.
If your time is too valuable to familiarize yourself with the topic, maybe you should think twice before about posting on it.
I believe you’ll find the threads you do post on to be much more enjoyable for all, and you won’t be arguing over junk nearly so much.
In Christ, Michael
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Traditional_Ang
Guest
Robert Bay said:
Robert:
Speaking of the “Real world”, could you let everyone know that I had to put down my favorite cat today.
He was 19 years old, and his body just couldn’t go anymore. I and his “Mother”, Diane, could use everyone’s prayers.
Thank you.
Michael
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Traditional_Ang
Guest
Thank you, Gilliam. I had only heard part of the story.
Good post.
Michael
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Traditional_Ang
Guest
Tim:
Thank you for your service.
A few of the members of the congregation at St. Mary’s have been rotating in and out of Iraq. One is a Master Sargeant. We also have a mother whose son disposes of bombs who was last in Pashawar Province, Pakistan (he kept a Shia Mosque full of worshippers from being blown up).
A nun (LA Archdiocese) had the gall to walk away from the mother of this man when she said he was in the armed forces. It is tough keeping your faith on these deployments, and when people keep questioning what you’re doing and why.
I can only imagine how difficult that is.
May God bless you and His angels protect you.
In Christ, Michael
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Traditional_Ang
Guest
Debunkerman:
So, Can I assume that you would rather we have left Saddam Hussein alone so that he could:
- Torture 10,000’s of Iraqis to death, some as young as 7 years, and had equal numbers of women gang-raped in front of their husbands, parents and other loved ones, some as young as 11 years old?
- Deny food, water, electricity, medicine and other necessities to Shias and other suspected political oponents while using money from the “Oil for Food Program” to buy weapons, build palaces and bunkars and reward his chronies for their service?
- Continue paying $25,000 to the families of Homicide Bombers who successfully slaughtered Jewish men women and Children in Israel? and, Providing training camps, hospital care, safe haven and money for known Al-Queda members and boses?
- Walk around as a free man after trying to assassinate President Bush the elder and paying for the first attack on the WTC (evidence linking him to the attack came out during the various trials), and attacking the civilian populations of countries he wasn’t at war with during the Gulf War? and,
- Contunue manufacting and stockpiling WMD as reported by most of the world’s intelligence services? (Mossad reports they helped the Russians drive the WMD to three storage facilities in Syria in the months leading up to the latest Gulf War)
I’m asking the question, because I don’t think you realize what the alternative to deposing Saddam was, or just how many INNOCENT Iraqis he had slaughtered between 1991 and 2002.
Goodnight and peace be with you.
In Christ, Michael
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Lonevoice
Guest
Traditional Ang:
Rainbow Bridge
Just this side of heaven is a place called Rainbow Bridge.
When an animal dies that has been especially close to someone here, that pet goes to Rainbow Bridge.
There are meadows and hills for all of our special friends so they can run and play together.
There is plenty of food, water and sunshine, and our friends are warm and comfortable.
All the animals who had been ill and old are restored to health and vigor; those who were hurt or maimed are made whole and strong again, just as we remember them in our dreams of days and times gone by.
The animals are happy and content, except for one small thing; they each miss someone very special to them, who had to be left behind.
They all run and play together, but the day comes when one suddenly stops and looks into the distance. His bright eyes are intent; His eager body quivers. Suddenly he begins to run from the group, flying over the green grass, his legs carrying him faster and faster.
You have been spotted, and when you and your special friend finally meet, you cling together in joyous reunion, never to be parted again. The happy kisses rain upon your face; your hands again caress the beloved head, and you look once more into the trusting eyes of your pet, so long gone from your life but never absent from your heart.
Then you cross Rainbow Bridge together…
Author unknown…
I know it’s not theologically sound
but I hope it makes you and yours feel better.
Sorry for your loss. My dog went away 5 years ago, and it still seems odd to not see him lounging around. WHen he died, a friend gave me this:
Rainbow Bridge
Just this side of heaven is a place called Rainbow Bridge.
When an animal dies that has been especially close to someone here, that pet goes to Rainbow Bridge.
There are meadows and hills for all of our special friends so they can run and play together.
There is plenty of food, water and sunshine, and our friends are warm and comfortable.
All the animals who had been ill and old are restored to health and vigor; those who were hurt or maimed are made whole and strong again, just as we remember them in our dreams of days and times gone by.
The animals are happy and content, except for one small thing; they each miss someone very special to them, who had to be left behind.
They all run and play together, but the day comes when one suddenly stops and looks into the distance. His bright eyes are intent; His eager body quivers. Suddenly he begins to run from the group, flying over the green grass, his legs carrying him faster and faster.
You have been spotted, and when you and your special friend finally meet, you cling together in joyous reunion, never to be parted again. The happy kisses rain upon your face; your hands again caress the beloved head, and you look once more into the trusting eyes of your pet, so long gone from your life but never absent from your heart.
Then you cross Rainbow Bridge together…
Author unknown…
I know it’s not theologically sound
but I hope it makes you and yours feel better.
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Ani_Ibi
Guest
From the job description for a US Army Chaplain’s Assistant:
- I have already responded to this. The issue is not whether he wanted to kill anyone. The issue is whether he was prepared to follow orders; do his job to the best of his ability including carrying a weapon and using it if necessary.
- How do you know he did not want to kill anyone? If Ms Sheehan is your source on this, do you not think her ‘testimony’ is no more than biased hearsay?
Do you have any rationale for this aspersion on the character of army recruiters?
Did your high school history teacher offer any rationale for this personal attack on the character of army recruiters?
How does this make the army recruiter – allegedly, in your history teacher’s words – “the biggest damn liar in the world”?
Soldiers have job descriptions. If they want a guarantee that they can be spending time with their families on a day-by-day basis, then soldiering is not the job for them. Even if they are not sent into combat zones, they could be posted anywhere in the world far far away from family.
There are many other jobs – besides soldiering – which a person can do inside the home or commuting to a job site in the morning and commuting back home at night.
Also, as a mother, I am very suspicious of this stay-at-home son business. Sons grow up and have their own lives and make their own decisions. Their jobs are not to stay at home and keep their mums company.
Casey made his decision. His decision was one which differed from the decision that his mother wanted him to make. And that is why I suggest that there is a problem with personal boundaries here.
To wit: Ms Sheehan has a right to make decisions about her own life but she did not have the right to make decisions about her adult son’s life and – while I certainly can imagine the sorrow at losing a child, particularly to death – I believe that Ms Sheehan does not have the right to subvert Casey’s personal decision in order to drive her own goals when those goals differ so markedly from Casey’s goals.
Having said that, I feel that Ms Sheehan has been saying some things which indicate that she would do well – as a Catholic – to apprise herself of confession, communion and spiritual direction as well as distancing herself from the influence of organizations which promote activities which go against Catholic teaching.
I also have some serious difficulties with Ms Sheehan’s money trail. I have to go to work, but this has been discussed on the previous Sheehan thread and so can be found through the search window.
Even for someone who has not been posted into a combat zone, accidental death is a risk with a high degree of possibility on military bases. Military equipment is dangerous, even when it is working properly. I believe there are some stats on this too on the previous Sheehan thread, but I have to go to work now.
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Ani_Ibi
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TradAng: I am very sorry to hear about your cat. Hugs, Ani.
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dc_dave
Guest
We can be more specific on these points. An interview of Cindy Sheehan was just published on the conservative/libertarian/antiwar site, LewRockwell.com:
CS: For eight years I was a youth minister at our parish and for three of those years in high school he was in my youth group; then for three of those years in college he helped me.
TD: Tell me about his decision to join the Army.
CS: A recruiter got hold of him, probably at a vulnerable point in his life, promised him a lot of things, and didn’t fulfill one of the promises. It was May of 2000. There was no 9/11. George Bush hadn’t even happened. When George Bush became his commander-and-chief, my son’s doom was sealed. George Bush wanted to invade Iraq before he was even elected president. While he was still governor of Texas he was talking about: “If I was commander-and-chief, this is what I would do.”
Back then, my son was promised a twenty thousand dollar signing bonus. He only got four thousand dollars of that when he finished his advanced training. He was promised a laptop, so he could take classes from wherever he was deployed in the world. He never got that. They promised him he could finish college because he only had one year left when he went in the Army. They would never let him take a class. They promised him he could be a chaplain’s assistant which was what he really wanted to do; but, when he got to boot camp, they said that was full and he could be a Humvee mechanic or a cook. So he chose Humvee mechanic. The most awful thing the recruiter promised him was: Even if there was a war, he wouldn’t see combat because he scored so high on the ASVAB [Career Exploration] tests. He would only be in war in a support role. He was in Iraq for five days before he was killed in combat.
TD: Did you discuss Iraq with him at all?
CS: Yes we did. He didn’t agree with it. Nobody in our family agreed with it. He said, “I wish I didn’t have to go, Mom, but I have to. It’s my duty and my buddies are going.” I believe we as Americans have every right to, and should be willing to, defend our country if we’re in danger. But Iraq had nothing to do with keeping America safe. So that’s why we disagreed with it. He reenlisted after the invasion of Iraq, because he was told if he didn’t, he’d have to go to Iraq anyway – he’d be stop-lossed – but if he did, he’d get to choose a new MOS [military specialty] when he got home. (end excerpt)
Casey Sheehan reminds me a great deal of myself. At the college in which I chose to enroll in 1961, ROTC was mandatory for the first two years. In the spring of 1963 I gave a presentation to the ROTC class on the distant Vietnam War in which I concluded that it was not going well for our side, but it would be self-defeating for us to turn it into America’s war, because the Vietnamese were very nationalistic and would simply see us as just a replacement for the French, whose rule they had finally thrown off. Nevertheless, figuring I faced the draft anyway, and it would be better to be an officer than an enlisted man, I opted to continue in ROTC and get my commission. It could have been the worst mistake I ever made in my life. There are classmates of mine whose names are on that long black wall on the Mall. We all overestimated the wisdom and virtue of our leaders at the time, as poor Casey Sheehan seems to have done this time. The main difference between him and me, as I see it, is luck.
Kadena, Farewell
“Now boarding…for Danang, Vietnam,”
A shudder went through the hall
Among the young men around me
–Many names there bound for a wall.
As they left the island terminal,
Refreshed by a brief overnight,
Their mood was deep resignation:
Time to get into the fight.
For their return to “the world,”
Many forever would wait.
'Twas the time of the big offensive,
Midwinter of sixty-eight.
DC Dave
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dc_dave
Guest
There is nothing in this account of Casey Sheehan’s death that contradicts what Cindy has to say about his general opposition to the Iraq war in the interview at lewrockwell.com/engelhardt/engelhardt117.html .
Again, as I have written elsewhere in this thread, Casey Sheehan reminds me a good deal of myself. I was opposed to our role in the Vietnam War from the beginning, but by the time we got in with both feet, I had already made my military commitment. In a combat exercise at Fort A.P. Hill in 1966, I was made temporary commander in a combat exercise. I had made some good friends who were all able fellows, and I quickly made them my deputies. We performed well and the officer supervising the exercise later told me that he would like to have me with him if he were ever in combat in Vietnam. Fortunately, if never came to that for me, like it did for Casey. The sense of loyalty to comrades takes over in situations like that, but that doesn’t mean at all that Casey and his mother disagreed over the U.S. invasion of Iraq.
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aimee
Guest
The Catholic Cindy Sheehan is still… 
:rolleyes:
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convert_2000
Guest
dc dave:
I wonder how much of her foul language was used in the presence of the youth that she’s used in the public recently. I’m glad she wasn’t ministering to my children.
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dc_dave
Guest
My guess is none. That is not to say that she has not lapsed into some strong language to describe the massive bloodlet that our leaders have unforgivably lied us into. I, for one, would love to have had her ministering to my children, one of whom is now in the seminary.
Cindy Sheehan also stands accused of questioning the motives of our leaders. For shame! Check out what former Reagan administration official, Paul Craig Roberts, has to say along those lines:
Bush’s Iraq policy is based on lies, and force based on lies cannot bring democracy to Iraq or to any other country.
Bush’s lies are discrediting and destroying democracy in America. His “Patriot Act” alone has done more damage to Americans’ freedom than Osama bin Laden.
Why did Bush invade Iraq?
Cynical Americans say the answer is oil. But $300 billion would have bought the oil without getting anyone killed, without destroying America’s reputation in the world and without stirring up countless terrorist recruits for al Qaida.
Congress gave Bush the go-ahead for the invasion because Congress trusted Bush and believed his word that Iraq had fearsome weapons that would be unleashed on America unless we preempted Saddam Hussein’s attack by striking first. Congress did not give Bush the go-ahead for initiating a war in order to spend hundreds of billions of dollars and thousands of American lives “building democracy in Iraq.”
Will President Bush ever tell us the real reason why he committed America’s treasure, the lives of American soldiers and the reputation of our country to war in Iraq?
Does he even know?
informationclearinghouse.info/article9230.htm
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