The Catholic Gospel?

[scylla]

As a quick response to clear up some of the posts here…

We don’t think you have to go to class to learn the Gospel, but in order to maintain order and allow for questions we have a class so people can ask questions and learn Catholic belief. It is kinda disruptive to ask questions during Mass so we have a class people go to, to learn about the faith.
This is also why we have Sunday School\Catechism classes.

Now with the mental assent thing, there are some Protestants who do believe that and in order to maintain truth, Catholics have defined this so that there is no confusion.
By Gods Grace Alone are we saved.
We are saved By God’s Grace, by Faith Working through Love.

Not just by faith with a mental assent, but with faith that allows God to work through us. And what is most important…Love.

This was in response to the belief that came up that we are saved by Faith Alone, and if that is meant to believe that faith without obedience or love then it is completely wrong, and that is what Catholics reject.
If it is Faith that includes obedience and love then we can accept that, but since it is a misleading statement that leads to confusion we don’t use the words Faith Alone. (also since it is contradicted flatly by James) But understood correctly it can be accepted by Catholics, but it must be qualified.
Which in the end means it is a poor way of describing belief.

God Bless
Scylla

 

[LatinCat]

Read, “How can I get to Heaven?” By Robert Sungenis.
The basic idea behind salvation is that we are born again Children of God in baptism in which God puts his divine life in us. If we serve Christ and avoid mortal sin we remain in this state and, thus we are undeservedly ready for heaven. If we commit mortal sin we lose God’s life in us and thus are derserving of hell. However, the sacraments, especially confession, exist to restore and increase God’s life in us if we lose it through mortal sin. This all presupposes faith and works wich are foundational in the process of salvation. The entire process of salvation is based on one principle “grace alone”. None of this would be possible without God’s grace. Grace moves us to repentance, grace draws us to the sacraments. Graces moves us to faith. Grace moves us to works. Salvation is the work of God’s grace cooperating with our free will.

 

[LatinCat]

timz:

Ignatius:

-I honestly do not understand why it is so difficult for the average Catholic to answer the most basic and important question of Christianity (how do I get to be with Jesus forever). It seems like it should be a quick short answer (maybe because of my background?). I think it would be difficult to find a fundamentalist who couldn’t explain Sola Fide. Is it just because the fundamentalist gospel is easier or more simple? Anyway, I will take you advise and repost this in another forum as well.

Thanks,
Tim

Why should it be a quick and short answer? Christ came to solve difficult problem: We are sinners but God is all loving; and We are sinners but God is all Just. Why should the solution to such a complicated problem be simple?

 

[DeFide]

timz:

Lucky certainly could be a poor choice of words. However, we all have a sinful nature and continue to sin despite our best efforts (even Paul does what he does not wish to do) and if you sin you believe you are in a “state of sin” untill you next confession and are put back in a “state of grace” ??? What happens if you get blasted by a car right after doing something stupid (sinful).

…
Tim

See this “Ask an Apologist” reply:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?postid=757651#poststop

 

[scylla]

It is easy to answer any question about Catholicism, it just is important that we try and be as precise as possible as not to mislead people.

This is the reason they were directing you to the tracts on this site, just for clarity. There are a lot of wacky or just misunderstood beliefs that people say Catholics believe, and we frequently have to deal with this as Catholics.

Feel free to ask questions, but sometimes you will have to filter out the noise here.

God Bless
Scylla

 

[Della]

Della wrote:

Well, your understanding of Catholic teaching is, to say the least, faulty

timz responded:

Thats why I am here.

As I said, “Good!”

Della wrote:

As to what I would tell your hypothetical person, I would tell him to enter the RCIA program at his local Catholic parish in which he will learn what the Church teaches about salvation and other important things, such as living the life of Christ as a member of his Body, the Church.

timz responded:

It takes a class to know the gospel?

Of course. Didn’t you say that in your hypothetical situation the Gospel (the reason Jesus was born, lived and died) had been explained to the inquiring person, so now what should we tell him? The Gospel message isn’t just “believe in Jesus” with no background, no explanations, no sharing of the Gospel. Right?

Della wrote:

You see, we don’t believe that people are automatically doomed merely because they have never heard the Gospel as you do, and quite erroneously I might add.

timz responded:

Thats not a universal view amongst Evangelicals, though it would be my take from Scripture. Is your current RCC view the historic view or the new politically correct view?

Quite true. It isn’t the universal view amongst Evangelicals because there is no universal view amongst Evangelicals, which is one of the difficulties of Sola Scriptura. Yes?

And the RCC view is the historical and biblical one. Evangelicals of all stripes, bless all of them!, don’t always include in their formulations verses and passages of the Bible they don’t understand or which don’t fit into their theological assumptions, which is why you haven’t been taught this vital teaching in your Evangelical/Fundamentalist/Protestant church.

The Catholic Church teaches ALL of the Bible, not just those bits that “make sense” to our theologians and ordained people. We don’t leave out of the formulation and development of doctrine any parts of the Bible whatsoever. Once again, just citing a general overview of a group of believers whose beliefs are so varied as to make it impossible to cite all they do believe and don’t believe.

Della wrote:

As to any person who desires to be saved, we would tell him to be baptized and believe in the Gospel handed down by the Apostles, which was the teaching of both Jesus and Paul. This believing entails much more than mere mental assent

timz responded:

Romans 10:

9That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.

Quite true, but it isn’t the only thing Paul ever said on the subject, is it? He also said that baptism was necessary for salvation:

1Cor.12:13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body – Jews or Greeks, slaves or free – and all were made to drink of one Spirit.

Col.2:12 …and you were buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.

Acts.22:16 And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on his name.

Rom.6:3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?

Gal.3:27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

I don’t think any protestant believe it is “merely mental assent” that save the sinner, but rather a “saving faith”.

Thanks for all the replies,
Tim

No, not all Protestants (of the Evangelical sort) believe in mere mental assent, but there are those who do and hold to that idea quite strongly. Once again, evidence that Sola Scriptura doesn’t work, as you have begun to understand.

Saving faith doesn’t stand alone, either. It must begin with baptism and be fed by God’s grace, which is why Jesus established the 7 Sacraments, which actually do what the Church teaches they do–impart grace to our souls–saving grace merited for us by Christ’s death on the cross.

 

[FCEGM]

timz:

Thanks fror all the replies. I am trying my best to keep up and respond. I am seriously seeking what your church teaches and usually find that I learn the most about other views when debating them (hence the choice of a forum to inquire).

I think this article might be helpful to you:

bringyou.to/apologetics/a54.htm

At Baptism Divine Life (a supernatural Birth) enters the soul, virtues are infused (habitual grace) and the person needs to put into practice (by grace) what has been received.

For the normal Catholic, therefore, the question of one’s salvation is not a major concern or emphasis; rather it is to love God by following His will by means of a sacramental life, preceded and followed by prayer, penance, love of neighbor, in one’s state of life. There is a trust that God will bring one to heaven because of what He has started in the soul. Looking at oneself there is reason to be fearful; but looking at God there is reason to hope. And this hope is the infused virtue of Hope by which one trusts that God will help you get where He desires you to end up, i.e., with Him. The normal Catholic, therefore, does not have an anxiety about salvation, yet has a realistic humility about the terms of it. He therefore does not need absolute certainty of mind that he will be saved, and sees such a need as an insecurity and distrust in the Goodness and Power of God to help the well-meaning. One must constantly turn to God, and when one does assurance (though not absolute knowledge) results. This assurance or trust comes from a practical sensing that God is actually helping one to conquer one’s sinful tendencies. . .

 

[MariaG]

Hey Tim,

here was a post from another thread. It is what is supposed to be taught to our young Catholic Christians. It is found in the Baltimore catechism 2.

Here’s the short answer from the Baltimore Catechism 2: 9. Q. What must we do to save our souls?
A. To save our souls we must worship God by faith, hope, and charity; that is, we must believe in Him, hope in Him, and love Him with all our heart.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[Nicene]

timz:

Serious question:

Pretend you meet someone who has never heard of Jesus, you tell him the basic story and he believes. He asks what to do to go to heaven. You reply?

As an evangelical/fundamentalist/protestant (pick a label) I reply that he needs to accept Jesus as savior and believe in Him (and site any of many Romans passages).

As a Catholic you reply?
My understanding of RCC would be something like if you believe in Jesus, subscribe to the Catechism, participate in the sacraments, live a good life (works?), and if you get lucky enough to die in a state of grace (after confession?) you hope to go to heaven???

Thanks for any replies,
Tim

For simplicity sake if someone asks “How do I to get to heaven” it’s summed up in 5 words “You did it to me” The rest takes time, patience, a willingness to learn, and an earnest desire to seek the truth. “Knock and the door will be opened” but you still have to walk through the door. “Seek and you will find” but you have to take up the cross and go on the journey.

Peace and God Bless
Nicene

 

[Elzee]

I heard Jimmy Akin answer this very simply one time. I’ll paraphrase as best I can:

1. 
   *]Repent and be baptized.
   *]Obey what Jesus told us to do as infallibly explained to us by the Church
   *]If you mess up, repent (confession) and start again. God always welcomes us back.
   
   It’s a cycle we’ll live out our entire life. As we grow in our relationship with Jesus, #3 won’t be required as often!

 

[MIKED777]

as a catholic speaking to a person whos never heard the gospel i would try to speak in simple terms, feed him with milk and not the meat. so Id tell them

I would teach them God’s Law -Ten Commandments- Then how that law pertains to the inner man not just external acts. How we all are sinners and fall short of Gods requirements -LAWS.

How Jesus Came to Save Sinners and that if We repent of our sins and trust in Jesus for our forgiveness we shall be saved.

Then I would tell them the Visable Sign of our repentence to sin and The Gift of God’s Forgiveness and Mercy is inate ,embedded in the sacrament of baptism, which will empower us with grace to live out our faith in obedience.

 

[hurst]

Mordocai:

salvationhistory.com/bookstore/audioRsrcs.cfm#L3
and then click on “bible” then click on ‘catholic gospel’

That was great! It was Scott Hahn contrasting the Catholic Gospel with the Protestant version. He then discusses the Catholic understanding of the ancient sacrifice as a renunciation of idolatry, and the difference between Catholic Mass and Protestant “altar” calls, between covenant and contract, and between being restored family members and saved sinners. ~55 minutes audio.

Thanks for the link!

hurst

 

[krysianka]

Mordocai:

By the way, wanna hear the Catholic Gospel as it really is?
ewtn.com/vondemand/audio/resolve.asp?rafile=iq_708.ra
If link fails, click here
salvationhistory.com/bookstore/audioRsrcs.cfm#L3
and then click on “bible” then click on ‘catholic gospel’

prolly one of the best speeches ive ever heard
God Bless, Mary Keep,
Mordocai

Mordocai you rock . . . thank you

 

[twf]

Hey Tim! I know how you feel. I’m a former Evangelical myself (as a fair number of us here are). The Catholic Gospel is both simple and complex. It depends on how you look at it. If I explained the “basic story”, as you put it, to someone and they asked me what they must do to be saved, I would say the following:
“Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ so that your sins may be forgiven; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you, for your children, and for all who are far away, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to him.” (Acts 2:38-39, NRSV).
With all due respect, how many Evangelicals would respond in this way? Yet this is what Peter told them to do…repent and be baptized. That is the first step. If you read the New Testament as an organic whole it becomes clear, I believe, that salvation is a journey. The initial act of repentance and baptism is essential, but it is not the end…just the beginning. Also feel free to email me at tyler_fehr@rendreality.com

I highly recommend Dave Armstrong’s book A Biblical Defense of Catholicism. Dave is a former Evangelical as well, and his book was very helpful for me during my conversion process. It relies, as the name suggests, heavily upon Scripture. (See ic.net/~erasmus/BOOKS.HTM for his book site. His main site, at socrates58.blogspot.com/, has a lot of great and indepth apologetics material as well).
As you investigate the Holy Catholic Faith, I also recommend scripturecatholic.com/ as a quick resource. It provides Biblical and patristic (early Church Fathers) references to back up a host of Catholic doctrines…from salvation to justification to the saints and sacraments.
catholicbridge.com is also excellent. This site was put together by a former Evangelical (yet again ) with the explicit purpose of explaining the Catholic Faith to Evangelicals. You may find some of his articles on salvation and justification helpful.
Finally, don’t forget this site! Catholic.com.
In Christ,
Tyler

 

[twf]

Here is a previous post of mine I once made on another thread…

The Church teaches that justification is by grace through faith and works. Sola fide (faith alone) is rejected by the Church as heresy, but sola gracia (grace alone) is upheld as sound teaching. We must realize that neither faith nor works can save us. All the faith in the world would be nothing, without grace. Likewise, all the works under the sun would be, as you said in the other thread, like filthy rags without grace. This is where the distinction must be made. Both faith and works are worthless if they do not flow from God’s grace. Our salvation is only made possible because Christ took our eternal penalty on the tree at Calvary; however, this perfect work of Christ must be applied to each of us. God has given us freewill, so we must accept this gift and co-operate with him. Not just once (the moment you accept Christ), but all through our lives. Catholics can say that we merit salvation, but only in a secondary and derivative sense. The grace that Christ gives us leads to faith. This grace-empowered faith leads to works. The two go hand in hand. Our faith and works become our way of co-operating with God’s plan for our salvation, and become worthy of merit before God because Christ’s merit is applied to us through his grace. The faith and works in and of themselves are nothing, but when they flow from the grace Christ has given us, they become creditable.
One thing that really hit home for me was the realization that even the Evangelical position requires human effort to obtain salvation. If we are to say that there is nothing we can do to be saved, then logically, all human beings should be saved automatically…as Christ’s grace would be universally applied; however, we know that this is not the case. Even in the Evangelical view, one must make an conscious act of the will, exert a mental effort, to decide to accept Christ and to repent of one’s sins. In a sense, this is a work, as it is an act of the will, and takes effort on our part. But this is only made possible by grace in the first place (remember, the Father must draw us to His Son before we can accept Him), so we can not take credit for it, even though our effort was involved. So once you realize that even the Evangelical view requires human effort, it falls into place (at least for me) that works, those that are the fruit of the grace God has given us, can also play a role in our part in salvation.

The importance of works is found throughout Scripture. I highly recommend that you check out some of the resources I mentioned above. You’ll find many powerful arguments for the Catholic position on justification/salvation.
There are some key passages to consider:
Matthew 24:45-51 (Note that the wicked slave is still a servant of the Master…a Christian…he is cast out because he mistreats his fellow servants).
Matthew 25 (all of it! We have here three parables. All concern salvation and the final judgement. All clearly teach that good works are necessary for salvation. Why do the “sheep” enter the Kingdom of Heaven? Christ doesn’t say: because they believed in me…he says they fed him, gave him water to drink, clothed him, etc).
Mark 4:1-20
Luke 8:4-15 (The parable of the sower again)
Luke 12:35-48 (Again, clearly the wicked slave is a Christian…he knows that the master will come, and that he serves the master…but he is thrown out because of his wicked deeds. The righteous servant is rewarded for his good works).
Luke 13:6-9 (The tree is clearly a Christian…it is in the Master’s vinyard. He will shower it with grace…the fertilizer mentioned. But if it refuses this grace, and contines to remain bare, the Master will cut the tree down).
Luke 19:11-27 (The servants, or Christians, are given various amounts of money. The servant who does nothing with his money is cast out—damned…the servants who earn more money are rewarded).
John 15:1-17 (This is a great passage. We must remain on the vine, the source of grace…Christ. If we do not produce fruit, the natural outcome of the grace we receive from the vine, we are cut off, and damned. This lack of growth is a rejection of grace).
There are so many more, but this is a good start.

Just as a clarification, do you believe in eternal security, or do you accept that a Christian can “fall from grace”?

Didn’t think of this earlier…I also recommend David Currie’s Born Fundamentalist, Born Again Catholic. He points out, in his chapter on justification, that Protestants start with certain passages of Paul (which we believe are taken out of context) and build a doctrine of justificaiton from there. They then read the Gospels (and James, etc) and try to force the passages concerning salvation in these books into their sola fide model. David Currie points out that one should start with the Gospels, and then understand Paul’s teachings in light of
Christ’s.
In Christ,
Tyler

 

[jimmy]

timz:

Serious question:

Pretend you meet someone who has never heard of Jesus, you tell him the basic story and he believes. He asks what to do to go to heaven. You reply?

As an evangelical/fundamentalist/protestant (pick a label) I reply that he needs to accept Jesus as savior and believe in Him (and site any of many Romans passages).

As a Catholic you reply?
My understanding of RCC would be something like if you believe in Jesus, subscribe to the Catechism, participate in the sacraments, live a good life (works?), and if you get lucky enough to die in a state of grace (after confession?) you hope to go to heaven???

Thanks for any replies,
Tim

The answer is, you have faith in Christ and the Trinity and you follow Christ when living your life. Not living the life of Christ leads to sin and ultimately away from God(in other words, to Hell). I would site James2, Matt25 and several other passages. The Catholic Church teaches that salvation is a process where you are made like Christ. Christ tells us to be perfect as our heavenly Father is perfect. Revelation tells us that nothing imperfect shall enter heaven. Through the Holy Spirit we are brought into unity with the Trinity.

 

[Flopfoot]

timz:

Lucky certainly could be a poor choice of words. However, we all have a sinful nature and continue to sin despite our best efforts (even Paul does what he does not wish to do) and if you sin you believe you are in a “state of sin” untill you next confession and are put back in a “state of grace” ??? What happens if you get blasted by a car right after doing something stupid (sinful).

Need to clarify something here. You don’t lose your state of grace (and enter into state of sin) by venial sin, only by mortal sin. Mortal sin is a lot more than just ‘doing something stupid’. You have to make a conscious decision to reject God (well, reject His commandments at least) in order to commit mortal sin - since it must be a grave matter, you must know it is a grave matter, and you must still freely consent to do it.

IMHO, there’s a chance that if someone commits a mortal sin, even if they get to live another 10 years they might never repent this sin. Because just as you made a conscious decision to act against God, you must make a conscious decision to repent. 2 of the steps for repentance are having sorrow for your sins and making a resolve to never again offend God in that way. Obviously, if you were turned against God at one time (hence you committed the sin), you are going to need a real change of heart to realise that it is wrong and re-commit yourself to following God’s commandments so that you can take those 2 steps of repentance.

Another point to mention is that if you do truly repent and die before you have a chance to get to Reconciliation (maybe while you’re on your way there), you can still be forgiven and returned to a state of grace. God uses the sacraments to impart grace, but He is not bound by them.

So what I’m trying to say here is that if someone goes to hell because they died in a state of mortal sin, it’s not a matter of bad luck, doing something merely stupid, or bad timing (getting hit by a car the next day). It’s a matter of their bad heart. And a lot of people might go through life never committing a mortal sin, even though we commit venial sins relatively often.

---

You say that it should be a simple answer (of how you get to heaven). Well, in a way it is simple, but parts of it are hard to put into words - but they are ‘written’ into your conscience. The ‘main way’ into Heaven is that you believe, and then you get baptised, thus recieveing sanctifying grace. Then you live a good life (this is where your conscience comes in, to help to direct you, as well as that you’ve got the commandments and etc) and don’t commit mortal sin. If you do commit mortal sin you lose your state of grace, but if you then repent and go to confession then your state of grace is restored. Then, if you die in a state of grace, you will go to heaven.

PS This is not the ‘only way’ into Heaven (eg, there’s things like invincible ignorance, but that’s not what you’re asking about)

PPS For infant baptisms, their parents make the profession of faith for them and promise to raise them in the faith. So it’s like the steps of believing and being baptised are reversed, but its basically the same thing (for all we know, deep down all little children might have great faith).

PPPS I’m not an expert on apologetics, I might some things slightly wrong in this post, if I have, hopefully other members on CAF will correct me. I think what I’ve said is alright though.

 

[Jabronie]

Hey Tim, thanks for posting here. Try reading Scott Hahn’s conversion story: chnetwork.org/scotthconv.htm

He talks about some of the things you bring up.

 

[x4us]

Dear Timz - To put the Gospel in a nutshell: Catholics believe that we must love the Lord our God w/ all our heart, soul, and mind and love our neighbor as ourselves. Christ said that there is no commandment greater than these (Mark 12:30-31) - so we humbly try to follow this great commandment, and “continue to work out our salvation with fear and trembling” (Philippians 2:12). God Bless you in your journey. You will find many converts here.

 

[Ignatius]

timz:

Ignatius:

-I honestly do not understand why it is so difficult for the average Catholic to answer the most basic and important question of Christianity (how do I get to be with Jesus forever). It seems like it should be a quick short answer (maybe because of my background?). I think it would be difficult to find a fundamentalist who couldn’t explain Sola Fide. Is it just because the fundamentalist gospel is easier or more simple? Anyway, I will take you advise and repost this in another forum as well.

Thanks,
Tim

Hi Tim,

I apologize if I wasn’t clear. I only get a few moments at break time to post, then I have to get back to work so sometimes I am rather turst. I did think my answer was pretty direct though, here is the quote:

Ignatius:

No, your understanding is incorrect. We are saved by Gods free gift of Grace alone. If not for this gift of saving Grace, we could not even accept Jesus. Everything else flows from this. Of course of one chooses to reject Gods gift of salvation, then they are not forced to receive it.

I think that’s as direct as you can get and still be consistent with the entire teaching of Christ. Remember, if everything was simple and clear, there wouldn’t be a zillion denominations, each with their own unique understanding and interpretation.

Then I pointed out that if you want the Authentic teaching, not a lot of peoples opinions, you should consider the following :

Ignatius:

You need to get your information about Catholics from Catholic sources. Even this is not the best place. The Ask an Apologist forum is the best place to get Authentic answers to your questions.

I apologize for not being clear earlier.

May the grace of Jesus Christ, the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you always.

Your brother in Christ.