The Catholic & idolatry myth

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RickHolland said:
Are you to embarrassed?
The Hail, Holy Queen: Hail, holy Queen, Mother of Mercy! our life, our sweetness, and **our hope! **To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve; to thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping in this valley, of tears. Turn, then, most gracious Advocate, thine eyes of mercy toward us; and after this our exile show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus; O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary.

It is a prayer TO, not THROUGH and there are hundreds more just like it. You can rationalize before men, but what about before God? If you faith is in accordance with God, then you have no issues at all. 🙂
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I am afraid you are the one that should be embarassed. Your lack of comprehension and your inablility to interpret is astounding to say the least.
Try looking up the word “advocate” in the dictionary. Better yet, I will save you some time.

Advocate–
–noun 2. a person who speaks or writes in support or defense of a person, cause, etc. (usually fol. by of): an advocate of peace.
3. a person who pleads for or in behalf of another; intercessor.

Also, how convienient you left out the rest of the prayer, Pray for us that we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ..

You realize that since this is part of the prayer, it shows we are asking her to pray for us. Therefore, we are praying through her in an intercessory manner.

Better luck next time.
 
Janet1983 said:
Well, when I need to go and see a doctor I surely don’t want to talk to his mom…

I’d rather go and talk to my Lord directly, because I actually have a relationship with Him…
I will therefore draw near with confidence to the throne of grace, so that I may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.
I don’t need anybody to “stand in the gap” because there is no gap…
I just do what He commands me to do…

Jeremiah 33:3
Call unto me, and I will answer thee, and shew thee great and mighty things, which thou knowest not.

Psalm 50:15
And call upon me in the day of trouble: I will deliver thee, and thou shalt glorify me.

Psalm 55:17
Evening, and morning, and at noon, will I pray, and cry aloud: and he shall hear my voice.

Psalm 55:22
Cast thy burden upon the LORD, and he shall sustain thee: he shall never suffer the righteous to be moved.

Psalm 86:6-7
Give ear, O LORD, unto my prayer; and attend to the voice of my supplications. In the day of my trouble I will call upon thee: for thou wilt answer me.

Psalm 91:15
He shall call upon me, and I will answer him: I will be with him in trouble; I will deliver him, and honour him.

Psalm 145:18
The LORD is nigh unto all them that call upon him, to all that call upon him in truth.

Hebrews 4:16
Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

No, actually… I never tried that, because my Dad was the one who made the decisions that were of more importance… My mom then usually told me to ask him instead…
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Well, when you go to the doctor, you see his nurse, who takes down all the information and passes it on to the doctor right?

Same principal, thanks for making the Catholic point!! 👍
 
RickHolland said:
How are you trying to convince, man or God? Are you ashamed of your religion to say I pray to saints and to Mary and I don’t care what anyone thinks about it? Are you not telling the truth or just to embarrased. Here is one example of hundreds.

A Mother’s Prayer to the Guardian Angels of her Children
I humbly salute you, O you faithful,
heavenly Friends of my children!
I give you heartfelt thanks
for all the love and goodness you show them.
At some future day I shall,
with thanks more worthy than I can now give,
repay your care for them,
and before the whole heavenly court
acknowledge their indebtedness to your guidance and
protection.
Continue to watch over them.
Provide for all their needs of body and soul.
Pray, likewise, for me,
for my husband,
and my whole family,
that we may all one day rejoice in your blessed company.
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Like I said, your comprehension skills are really lacking.

Do you not see the words “Pray, likewise for me,”?

We are asking the angels to pray for us, and take our prayers to the throne.

You just aren’t very good at this are you?
 
Nominefili said:
That is the way that I’ve seen it explained many times. However, when you ask your friends and family or church to pray for you, you are asking people who are alive. I think that’s really where the disagreement is centered: whether or not one can communicate to the dead.
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We believe that just because a person dies, they aren’t part of the body of Christ anymore. Quite the contrary.

The body of Christ consists of those inHeaven as well as those on Earth.

We belive that those who have died and are in Heaven, are “alive” in Christ. They are in his presence. They are from from dead.

So why not ask them to help us also?
 
sistermouse said:
I am Catholic, but, at this point in time, I must attend an Apolostic/Pentacostal church. I really can’t go into detail as to why I must, I just must. Last week, when the preacher was preaching out of Peter I, he got to the word idolatry and started talking about how the Roman Catholic Church worshiped idols!! I was frozen. I felt my cheeks getting red and I wanted to get up and run. He said it so matter of factly. I was just so stunned as the congregation started the “Amens”, as if they also knew that we worship idols. I could have seen him saying that people who worship Budda had idols, because that is fact, but Catholics?? Do other religions also think that we worship idols??
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First of all, their view of what an idol is is a SKEWED version of the 2nd commandment.

Check it out:

Thou shalt not make to thyself a graven thing, nor the likeness of any things, that are in heaven above, or that are in the earth beneath, or that abide in the waters under the earth.
Deut 5:8 SO, Likeness of THINGS, not spirits, not dieties, not angels, but THINGS in HEAVEN ABOVE, let’s call it the sky, in the earth beneath, lets call them critters & bugs or chipmunks, moles, etc…snakes…or abide in the waters of the deep. Why talk about the waters of the deep, underground & sky? (Heaven or the heavens was another way of saying sky) SO BASICALLY we’re talking about idols consisting of wings, hooves, & more than 2 legs, gills, fins, etc. THAT is an idol. Basically anything not human. A statue of mary doesnt have gills. A statue of Joseph doesnt have wings. The ONLY statues you see with wings will either be cherubs or angels. Even so, they are things that bring us closer to God. They are reminders of who they were, are, what they did, & how we can strive to be more like them & being more Christ like. Dude, those penacostals are like a cult & man, if you get sucked into that vaccuum, That tongues thing? Its charismatic KA-KA!!! The most irreverent people on the planet are them & evangelicals. very cultish.

Check out the video & witness the true nature of these nut-jobs

youtube.com/watch?v=2STDH14aJVk

Now talk to me about crazy…I’m listening…
 
Jason_1977 said:
Here ya go, I just figured you might want to get used to this now, this way you know what you’ll be surrounding yourself with

youtube.com/watch?v=wr93SsqQAlY&feature=related
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YES…PLEASE watch this one too…THIS guy hates the RCC & SWEARS HE is JESUS. Just keep in mind that THIS is the stuff you’l surround yourself with. THIS guy in this video admits he is the leader of a CULT as well!!! Was Jesus a cult leader? nope, he was a rabbi. Man, I swear…enjoy the videos, go make some popcorn…
 
MandiMija said:
Fantastic. However, to tell a Catholic that they think God is a cracker (or however you phrased it) is extremely offensive.

We believe in the real presence of God in the Eucharist, and we get that directly from Scripture. You, however, do not believe this way, and that’s your right. You have several posts here; enough, I would think, to have a sense of what is and is not offensive.
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That is just an excuse to focus on a single aspect of a post and taking it entirely out of its context because you cannot address the actual post; straw-man.

Do you understand that the priest is more powerful than the mighty cheribum like Gabriel, Michael and Satan - did you know that?
 
LittleDeb said:
The level of charity in this thread is falling quickly. I am thankful to the few people who have offered apologies for mis-communication.

The topic of the OP was that a person who had no idea what a person or religious group believed ascribed motives of idolatry.

Images are **not **and have never been idols. Idols are idols by their very nature. Their **purpose is to worship the item at a level of infinite power. That is what *defines *an idol. The item **itself **(in the idolater’s mind,) holds power, intrinsically.

Nowhere, in all of Scripture is it forbidden to use images as an aid to worship!! Anyone who wants to peddle that here is kidding him/her self. If that were so, all paintings, fish symbols, crosses, and especially Scripture itself would be forbidden. What do you think those letters on the page you read are? Letters are symbols. Words create images. The mind thinks in pictures.

To all of my “Bible-only” Protestant friends: Your Bible itself is an idol in the weird, mistaken definition some have presented here. Do you know that we are commanded not to “read” Scripture? We are commanded to “pray” the Scriptures. Before the printing press ALL of Christendom prayed without the “visual aid” of Scripture!

Images have always, always, always been used as an aid to worship. Those who say other wise are lying to themselves, us, or both. Please take off your blinders and look again to authentic Christianity. Look to the Church Fathers for how to worship. They were taught *directly *by those who learned at the feet of Christ.
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Next you will be teaching on behalf of the Church that you do not worship saints and inamate objects.

You keep convincing yourself before man; it is God you should convince, He is the one who sets the standard.

We are just pointing to the obvious in spirit and truth.

**John 5 "You do not have His word abiding in you, for you do not believe Him whom He sent. 39 "You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me; **

The word search means examine; do you think they were examining the scrolls or actually reading?

**Mt 21:42 Jesus *said to them, "Did you never read in the Scriptures, ‘THE STONE WHICH THE BUILDERS REJECTED, THIS BECAME THE CHIEF CORNER {stone;} THIS CAME ABOUT FROM THE LORD, AND IT IS MARVELOUS IN OUR EYES’? **

Here the word read, means to read and acknowledge.

**Rev. 1:3 Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy, and heed the things which are written in it; for the time is near. **

You hold no credibility when you publically display such ignorance to Scripture by saying silly things like “commanded not to read the Scriptures”. Your own Church teaches the opposite doesn’t it?

graven image
“thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image”
A material effigy that is worshipped
A representation of a person (especially in the form of sculpture)-efigy

I would not like to hear your representaion of how are we to be saved? Who know what you might invent. :confused:

May God bless you with a set of spiritual eyes to see clearly. Amen.
 
sistermouse said:
I am sorry I ever posted this question. I see now that anyone not Catholic sees Catholics as worshiping all sorts of things as if the objects were a god. My question was answered as I looked over all the posts. People got pretty heated with names going back & forth and all. I just wondered if all Protestants thought we worshiped idols. Sadly, the answer is yes. But as I hold my rosary with my picture of Jesus propped up on my desk, I know I am not worshiping a picture or beads on a chain…I am worshiping Christ, my Savior and Redeemer. I have many problems to overcome in my life and in my situation, but I have never, nor will I ever, worship ANYONE or ANYTHING but my Father in Heaven, Jesus Christ, His Son, and the Holy Spirit…which, by the way, is a total of ONE GOD!!
I apologize for any feelings of anger this post may have caused…this was not my intention.
mouse
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If you had actually read the posts, then you would have seen on at least 3 posts where your Church teaches that it is okay to worship saints, images and the like. Why do you deny your own faith?
 
twopekinguys said:
I am afraid you are the one that should be embarassed. Your lack of comprehension and your inablility to interpret is astounding to say the least.
Try looking up the word “advocate” in the dictionary. Better yet, I will save you some time.

Advocate–
–noun 2. a person who speaks or writes in support or defense of a person, cause, etc. (usually fol. by of): an advocate of peace.
3. a person who pleads for or in behalf of another; intercessor.

Also, how convienient you left out the rest of the prayer, Pray for us that we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ..

You realize that since this is part of the prayer, it shows we are asking her to pray for us. Therefore, we are praying through her in an intercessory manner.

Better luck next time.
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I copied it directly as it was stated as part of a series of prayers as part of the Rosary as a whole, so perhaps you can take that up with the Catholic website. My mistake was not posting the link - apologies to all. theholyrosary.org/

"O Virgin Mary, My Mother,
I give to Your Immaculate Heart
my body and my soul,
my thoughts and my actions.

I want to be just what You want me to be,
and do just what You want me to do.
I am not afraid because You are always with me.
Help me to love Your Son, Jesus,
with all my heart and above all things.

Take my hand in yours, so I can always be with You."

same source: theholyrosary.org/

Why are you in such denial of your faith and practice? You worship and adore Mary and pray to bodily dead saints, which is having communion with spirits of the dead; strictly forbidden by God. 👍
 
twopekinguys said:
Like I said, your comprehension skills are really lacking.

Do you not see the words “Pray, likewise for me,”?

We are asking the angels to pray for us, and take our prayers to the throne.

You just aren’t very good at this are you?
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It is not me you need to convince; it is God. If you cannot convince me of what is so explicitly obvious; how much less will you convince God? You overlook the must blatent violation of God, which is asking, praying, to living spirits of the dead, something God curses. Again; it is not me you need to convince, but God and good luck with that friend because you will need a great deal more than luck. R.I.P.
 
Good luck everyone and by all means continue in your worship; as you were!👍
 
Nominefili said:
Estesbob has already explained to me that I misunderstood what I saw, and I apologized for jumping to conclusions. Now you have to jump on to say ridiculous things like “bearing false witness is not a big deal in your faith.” Do you really have no idea what a confessional Lutheran is?
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Sure, and I know that bearing false witness is a “big deal” within the faith. I was being facetious as I knew that you would not be able to provide evidence and therefore you were bearing false witness by posting something that you already explained that you, “misunderstood what you saw”…
Do you really think we’re all antinomian Marcionites skipping the Old Testament?
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Did I say that?
And of course you use the phrase “your faith,” of course to assert that we crazy heretics are not part of the Church catholic.
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Never said this. It is interesting that you try to defend false witness by… bearing false witness 🤷
I joined this forum to try and learn, but you people would rather insult than inform. Give me a break.
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You have done your fair share of insulting. Should I bring up your comment about the Pope and his “adherents”? Yea I think I will:
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Nominefili:
Do I believe that the Pope is the Antichrist? Let me answer that with a passage from Melanchthon’s Treatise on the Power and Primacy of the Pope:

Now, it is manifest that the Roman pontiffs, with their adherents, defend [and practice] godless doctrines and godless services. And the marks [all the vices] of Antichrist plainly agree with the kingdom of the Pope and his adherents. For Paul, in describing Antichrist to the Thessalonians, calls him 2 Thess. 2, 3: an adversary of Christ, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he as God sits in the temple of God. He speaks therefore of one ruling in the Church, not of heathen kings, and he calls this one the adversary of Christ, because he will devise doctrine conflicting with the Gospel, and will assume to himself divine authority.

As one with a quia subscription to the Confessions, yes I believe that the Pope is the Antichrist.
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Yep. Coming here with the attitude that the Pope is the Anti-Christ is a really great frame of mind to “learn” in.

God bless you
 
RickHolland said:
We are just pointing to the obvious in spirit and truth.

**John 5 "You do not have His word abiding in you, for you do not believe Him whom He sent. 39 "You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me; **

The word search means examine; do you think they were examining the scrolls or actually reading?

**Mt 21:42 Jesus *said to them, "Did you never read in the Scriptures, ‘THE STONE WHICH THE BUILDERS REJECTED, THIS BECAME THE CHIEF CORNER {stone;} THIS CAME ABOUT FROM THE LORD, AND IT IS MARVELOUS IN OUR EYES’? **

Here the word read, means to read and acknowledge.

**Rev. 1:3 Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy, and heed the things which are written in it; for the time is near. **

You hold no credibility when you publically display such ignorance to Scripture by saying silly things like “commanded not to read the Scriptures”. Your own Church teaches the opposite doesn’t it?
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Your personal, fallible interpretation of Scripture is full of holes. Not once have you shown a *command *to *read *Scripture. It is a good thing to do and brings us blessings, but God never commanded that we must read a Bible to know Him. The original teachings were oral and with pictures. Images. Icons predate the printing press.

And your understanding of the “word” is leading to the root of your troubles. The Word is a Who, first and foremost.

Please raise your level of charitable posts if you plan on remaining here.
 
RickHolland said:
If you had actually read the posts, then you would have seen on at least 3 posts where your Church teaches that it is okay to worship saints, images and the like. Why do you deny your own faith?
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Mr. Holland,
I would NEVER deny my Faith!! You may twist my words, you my falsely accuse me of idolitry, but I will never move one iota when it comes to my Faith & my Church. I may not be able to express my Faith at the present time, but I will never be moved from my beliefs.
Mr. Holland, you have said some very hurtful & hateful things here, and I wish to no longer carry on this discussion. I will pray for you and those like you, and if I bump into you in purgatory, then I will know that my prayers were answered.
mouse

A.B. Fulton Sheen: “The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it, and a lie is still a lie, even if everybody believes it.”
 
RickHolland said:
I copied it directly as it was stated as part of a series of prayers as part of the Rosary as a whole, so perhaps you can take that up with the Catholic website. My mistake was not posting the link - apologies to all. theholyrosary.org/

"O Virgin Mary, My Mother,
I give to Your Immaculate Heart
my body and my soul,
my thoughts and my actions.

I want to be just what You want me to be,
and do just what You want me to do.
I am not afraid because You are always with me.
Help me to love Your Son, Jesus,
with all my heart and above all things.

Take my hand in yours, so I can always be with You."

same source: theholyrosary.org/

Why are you in such denial of your faith and practice? You worship and adore Mary and pray to bodily dead saints, which is having communion with spirits of the dead; strictly forbidden by God. 👍
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I know you can’t be serious, because no one is taking you seriously.

Again, you miss the obvious…help me to love your son Jesus. Again, we aren’t worshipping her, we are asking for her assitance.

Why not try the “official” website vatican.va/ ?

You won’t do that because facts are too hard for you to comprehend, and we all know you have a problem with reading comprehension.

Come back when you can actually provide something of substance.
 
At my parish you see the tabernacle on the north side entrance. On the south side a large porcelin Mary statue. There are three kneelers in front of the porcelin statue of the BVM and there are none in front of the tabernacle. The tabernacle holds the precious body of Christ, the statue is, well, porceline. Yet there are three kneelers in front of the Mary statue with regular droves of people kneeling on them and getting up and kissing the feet and hands and robe of this statue. I think a casual observer might question this. I see Mexican folks in particular walk in and pray in front of the fatima statue in front of the porceline Mary statue, kissing the statues both and putting roses in front of them. Outside the church there are flowers under her feet and people kneeling and praying in front of statues regularly. I think it crosses a line.
 
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