The CC "got it right" on the NT canon? How do you know?

[clem456]

Could not the same question be asked in regards to how or why you chose Catholicism? Does everybody have the capability to understand, choose and believe in any Religion at all?

That is exactly the point.

 

[PRmerger]

Could not the same question be asked in regards to how or why you chose Catholicism? Does everybody have the capability to understand, choose and believe in any Religion at all?

I’ll answer that in a minute.

But let’s just clarify one thing: you are ok with another person declaring that he has been given a special power to read a text and decide if it’s theopneustos?

 

[dronald]

I’ll answer that in a minute.

But let’s just clarify one thing: you are ok with another person declaring that he has been given a special power to read a text and decide if it’s theopneustos?

There’s been quite a history behind the discussion and I do trust that the decisions made are correct.

Actually I even believe that Peter wrote 1 and 2 Peter as well as James writing James and John writing 1, 2 and 3. Hebrews was by someone obviously close to Timothy and I believe that whole heartedly.

I also believe Jesus walked on water.

 

[PRmerger]

There’s been quite a history behind the discussion and I do trust that the decisions made are correct.

Actually I even believe that Peter wrote 1 and 2 Peter as well as James writing James and John writing 1, 2 and 3. Hebrews was by someone obviously close to Timothy and I believe that whole heartedly.

I also believe Jesus walked on water.

But are you ok with a person saying that he has been given the power to read a text and decide if it’s theopneustos?

 

[PRmerger]

Could not the same question be asked in regards to how or why you chose Catholicism?

You could ask.

And if my answer was: I have been given a special power revealed by God that tells me what’s God’s Church and what’s not…

you could be as skeptical of my response as I am of Protestor’s response.

 

[PRmerger]

There’s been quite a history behind the discussion and I do trust that the decisions made are correct.

Actually I even believe that Peter wrote 1 and 2 Peter as well as James writing James and John writing 1, 2 and 3. Hebrews was by someone obviously close to Timothy and I believe that whole heartedly.

I also believe Jesus walked on water.

And you believe all these things because the CC discerned for you and me that 1 and 2 Peter, James, John, Hebrews are theopneustos…

and that the Shepherd of Hermas, Letters from Clement, Didache are not.

 

[dronald]

And you believe all these things because the CC discerned for you and me that 1 and 2 Peter, James, John, Hebrews are theopneustos…

and that the Shepherd of Hermas, Letters from Clement, Didache are not.

But to be fair we don’t have the exact same books, so wouldn’t it be more correct to say that we’ve concluded on the same NT books but the evidence that we do not defer to one another is that we have different OT books?

 

[dronald]

You could ask.

And if my answer was: I have been given a special power revealed by God that tells me what’s God’s Church and what’s not…

you could be as skeptical of my response as I am of Protestor’s response.

So then what is your answer?

 

[PRmerger]

But to be fair we don’t have the exact same books, so wouldn’t it be more correct to say that we’ve concluded on the same NT books but the evidence that we do not defer to one another is that we have different OT books?

Fair enough.

It is correct, then, to say that you defer to the authority of the CC each and every time you quote from the NT.

There is no other way that you would know what belongs in the NT, except that you submit to the authority of men, Catholic men, who discerned this for you.

 

[PRmerger]

So then what is your answer?

I will answer after you answer my question, posed first:

are you ok with a person claiming he has the ability, through revelation, to read a text and decide if it’s theopneustos?

 

[dronald]

I will answer after you answer my question, posed first:

are you ok with a person claiming he has the ability, through revelation, to read a text and decide if it’s theopneustos?

I think that through study and prayer one can come to learn which books belong in the Bible. I think the evidence is that all Christians accept the same books; which by the way I hope you see as a good thing.

Again, I’ve criticized you before on this topic for making a topic of agreement and unity into a debate. If all Christians accept the same books then it should be seen as a good thing.

I disagree though that on every time we agree it’s because of the CC. Again I believe some things that even some Catholics reject, like Peter wrote 2 Peter. We also have a different OT, so we’re not perfect in our agreements.

Finally, will you answer my question?

 

[PRmerger]

I think that through study and prayer one can come to learn which books belong in the Bible.

You can see my confusion here. Study? Based on what knowledge?

What information do you have already, that’s NOT in Scripture, that tells you that something is theopneustos?

The only way this could make any sense is if you are tacitly saying that you are NOT Sola Scriptura.

That is, you received Sacred Tradition, and from that you read a text and “study” it to determine whether it is theopneustos.

And, this means that you are okay with folks removing some books from the Bible after their “study” and adding books based on their study?

Yes?

Finally, will you answer my question?

I did not choose Catholicism based on receiving revelation from God, telling me which churches are not theopneustos and which church is.

 

[Protestor]

This is the most astonishing thing I’ve ever read on this forum. But this does prompt the question: did this special, private revelation you received happen to coincide with what the Christian church has discerned for 2000 years regarding the NT texts? Your special revelation told you that Hebrews is inspired but that the Shepherd of Hermas is not? Could you give us the list of books that your special revelation told you are theopneustos?

What is astounding is that it seems as though you niether actually read a full post by me or understand most of what I am saying in them enough to ask pertinent questions. The other option is that you are so astonished that you miss key parts of what I have said. Pls read my prior posts on this thread because i have either answered these question or answered analogous ones. I actually spend an

And I assure you that no credible, sane Christian thinker has ever claimed for himself to have this special privilege and power to decide for himself what’s theopneustos and what’s not. You are the first one in 2000 years to assert this.

Didn’t the protestant church claim or use something similar in determining it’s cannon? Didn’t Luther at one point deny that James was part of the canon?

 

[Protestor]

Astonishing…no just nonsensical
But at least honest… This is why solo and sola scriptura are interchangeable in substance…

Pls help me because obviously I need it

 

[Protestor]

But are you ok with a person saying that he has been given the power to read a text and decide if it’s theopneustos?

You should be asking “Does your theology allow for the possibility of this happening?”

Even if he wasn’t okay with it what should I care? This weak language that you are using is incapable of changing my mind. This is the kind of language that is used ask “if my food was okay”. I really think that you want to say that I am being heretical, and I would respect you more if you used such language. So maybe you should be asking “Isn’t this heretical even by protestant standards?”.

 

[clem456]

Finally someone understands my true concerns about this issue. I have been raising concerns about God’s relationship to his people and the authority he entrusted to the church practically the whole discussion

Individualism vs communion of saints is the issue here. We are unique and diverse individuals, and at the same time we do not exist alone. We are members of a community. God does not reveal himself in an individualistic way, he reveals himself to all people of all time. Christ, the last and final Word of God, comes to save all people of all time.

Christ is the head of this Body, so any revelation given to individuals is given in the context of his Body, the Church. The Holy Spirit impels us toward this unity. His inspiration impels us toward communion not to our own self determination. We are all called to submit to the Church out of charity, just as Christ submitted himself out of charity. In this way then, by submitting to Christ we submit to the community, or “the Church”. It can be a real sacrifice to test your personal understandings of scripture by submitting your own understanding to the “holos”, but we are all called to be one. One man cannot determine for himself what is Inspiration. Catholic means “of the holos” or “whole”.
It does not mean “exclusive”.

I’m not going to argue with you about the true church, because you do not believe in such. No problem. But if we believe in Jesus of Nazareth, unity must exist somewhere in a real and substantial way, because that is what he prayed for and died for. He is the head of his Body. Where and how are we going to find this Body, this real unity? For sure, it will not be found by determining for ourselves what is Inspired and what is not.

“Listening to” the body is known as obedience, and it can seem like we are abdicating our reason and going along like sheep with what others say. But it is just the contrary. Relying on our own reason without listening to others is folly and leads to bad things.

Only by listening to the Body can you begin to “make sense” of Scripture, and your reason and “sensus fidei” can converge.

 

[Protestor]

Individualism vs communion of saints is the issue here. We are unique and diverse individuals, and at the same time we do not exist alone. We are members of a community. God does not reveal himself in an individualistic way, he reveals himself to all people of all time. Christ, the last and final Word of God, comes to save all people of all time… “Listening to” the body is known as obedience, and it can seem like we are abdicating our reason and going along like sheep with what others say. But it is just the contrary. Relying on our own reason without listening to others is folly and leads to bad things. Only by listening to the Body can you begin to “make sense” of Scripture, and your reason and “sensus fidei” can converge.

Do you have anything I can read on the holos and/or the communion of saints as you have described it here. The concept is rather alien among the protestant church that I have encountered especially not relying on our own reason. The unity you are talking about is something that is attractive and unattractive to me depending on the context. Subjugation isn’t really my style, and I have a general distain for authority.

 

[Michael68]

Do you have anything I can read on the holos and/or the communion of saints as you have described it here. The concept is rather alien among the protestant church that I have encountered especially not relying on our own reason. The unity you are talking about is something that is attractive and unattractive to me depending on the context. Subjugation isn’t really my style, and I have a general distain for authority.

May I suggest going to biblechristiansociety.com. There is a wealth of information there on several topics of the Catholic Church that seem to confound Protestants. The info is clear and understandable to the lay person.

Peace,
Michael

 

[clem456]

Do you have anything I can read on the holos and/or the communion of saints as you have described it here. The concept is rather alien among the protestant church that I have encountered especially not relying on our own reason. The unity you are talking about is something that is attractive and unattractive to me depending on the context. Subjugation isn’t really my style, and I have a general distain for authority.

I am having trouble thinking of a specific book to recommend you, there are so many. Someone else may have a suggestion. I’m not sure Catholic apologetics books would be a good place to start, maybe I’m wrong.

Let’s look at Jesus Christ together.
What does his life look like, in communion with his Body? Christ is a model of obedient sacrifice for His Body. His obedience is “listening to”, (ob-audiere) his father. His Father’s Word is love. “Love them”. As God-who-needs-nothing, Christ is in sacrificial relationship with us. God desires that we exist in relationship with him, in communion. And he does whatever it takes to accomplish this communion for us. Everything but force us.

So this obedience is not slavery, or subjugation, as you call it.
The communion of saints is not subjugation to authority, it is all of us listening to the voice of love together . That love is simply expressed in and through Christ, who is the head of a community. Everyone in the Body has gifts, from the infinite storehouse of Christ’s grace. You and I have gifts. As individuals we have unique and diverse gifts, but we have no life apart from the Body. The “theo-pneustos” of our gifts has no meaning apart from the Body. To be separated from the Body is to death. The Body cannot exist without a Head, and the Head has a Body. In the end, this all boils down to acceptance of Jesus Christ, who lived, died, rose, and offers us eternal life in this communion.

Jesus Christ has freed us from the subjugation we all fear. We have slavery to things like pride, anger, dissension, greed, etc…all things which divide us and are unreasonable. The unity which Christ calls us to does not violate our reason. Unity of faith informs our reason, makes it more reasonable.
I can tell you from personal experience, pure self reliance on my own reason does not lead to “theo-pnesustos” of any kind.

 

[PRmerger]

What is astounding is that it seems as though you niether actually read a full post by me or understand most of what I am saying in them enough to ask pertinent questions. The other option is that you are so astonished that you miss key parts of what I have said. Pls read my prior posts on this thread because i have either answered these question or answered analogous ones.

I read and remember all of your posts in our dialogue, Protestor.

And it is astonishing to me, and to so many other folks here, that you claim a revelation from God that you can read a text and know if it’s inspired.

I’ve asked for some Scriptural resources that support your view that this is possible.

And I’d like to know if you think all other Christians have this special power, and what are we to do if some Christians say that God told them that the Gospel of John is not inspired?

What do we do then, with Christians who believe that the Gospel of John isn’t theopneustos?

Didn’t the protestant church claim or use something similar in determining it’s cannon?

Can you provide a source in which the Protestant Church claimed for itself the ability to read a text and determine if it’s theopneustos or not?