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PRmerger
Guest
So you are a Scripture AND Tradition advocate?
There are 2 channels of God’s Revelation: Scripture and Tradition?
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There are 2 channels of God’s Revelation: Scripture and Tradition?
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PRmerger
Guest
If I start with the framework, “I am a Christian…so what church should I join”, here’s how the thinking goes:
First I look at history: there is only 1 church (ok, 2 churches if you include the Orthodox) that can trace itself back through history to Christ.
Then I look at the documents that this organization wrote and produced.
One of the documents says that Jesus started a Church, gave a man the keys to this church, assured his Church that it would be infallible.
And so because this Church has been given the charism of infallibility, I trust it, and submit to it because it is the Body of Christ.
And could you please answer my questions:
You can see my confusion here. Study? Based on what knowledge?
What information do you have already, that’s NOT in Scripture, that tells you that something is theopneustos?
The only way this could make any sense is if you are tacitly saying that you are NOT Sola Scriptura.
That is, you received Sacred Tradition, and from that you read a text and “study” it to determine whether it is theopneustos.
And, this means that you are okay with folks removing some books from the Bible after their “study” and adding books based on their study?
Yes?
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Starwarsfan2
Guest
Not , quite it , I’m for tradition , it is authoritative, if it is subject to , checked by , and secondary to the Holy Scriptures ( hence sola scriptura ) .
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Starwarsfan2
Guest
Also resurrection of all in the future, and morals after justification ,
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PRmerger
Guest
So you have to show us where your list of “basics”, which you say now comes from Tradition, is “checked by” Scripture.
So where does Scripture give us this list of “basics”?
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PRmerger
Guest
And you’ll have to tell us where the Holy Scriptures “check” the 27 book canon of the NT.
How does that work?
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rcwitness
Guest
We recognize a distinction between tradiation (as in customs and old practices) and Tradiation which was an essential belief from the actual Apostles.
The latter is Sacred, like Scripture.
I am not sure there is one Tradition which cannot be supported quite strongly with Scripture.
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PRmerger
Guest
How about the belief that there are 27 books in the NT canon?
Or that there will be no further public revelation?
Or that revelation ended with the death of the last apostle?
None of those are strongly supported by Scripture.
J
JMM1957
Guest
If you accept Tradition, then you must acknowledge that it came down to us from Jesus to the the Apostles, from the Apostles to their disciples (ECF’s), and down to us today. Otherwise I’m sure you wouldn’t accept it, correct? So, if Tradition is Apostolic, then it automatically qualifies it to be authoritative, correct? That makes Tradition equal to the Scriptures, not secondary. Why would it be secondary? If the NT Scriptures were written by the Apostles, and Tradition comes from them also, don’t Scripture and Tradition both have the same source of authority then?
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rcwitness
Guest
Wouldn’t those be considered Dogmas?
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PRmerger
Guest
They are beliefs that come from Tradition, and are NOT found in Scripture.
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dronald
Guest
It does! So by your own means, and not private revelation; you came to believe the CC is the one true church?Sorry to interupt Sir,
If I was asked that question my answer would be:
The Catholic Church started on the day of Pentacost and has lasted to this day.
The Catholic Church produced the canon of 73 books of scripture that all Christian Churches use even though some took 7 books out of the OT. Every Christian Church uses the NT that the Catholic Church produced.
The Real Presence in the Eucharist.
The History, good and bad.
The Sacred Music.
I could keep going, but I hope this sorta helps!
Peace,
Michael
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clem456
Guest
How does any person know anything “by his own means”? It’s not possible.
Who can say their faith does not rest on the shoulders of the community that came before?
Show of hands please.
Even St Paul, who received a powerful and personal revelation from Christ, did not come to faith in Christ by his own means. Christ himself told him where to go and who to see.
Every author of the New Testament came from the Way, the Community, the Church. Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul…none of them came to the faith or authored inspired scripture “by their own means”.
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JMM1957
Guest
There’s not a single person in the last 2000 yrs. that hasn’t been been born into a family of faith or a family of no faith, its one or the other. And until at least the age of reason, we don’t even think about doing anything differently than we’re doing. Many of us though, at some point, start questioning and finding reasons for what we believe or don’t believe. Scripture says that God puts in everyone the desire to seek Him, its built right into us. Some people go through their whole lives in the faith they were raised in, and never really question it, others though, have a stronger desire to investigate further into what they believe, and when you begin to take seriously what is at stake, you naturally want to get as close to the whole Truth as you can. But, this process of searching for the Truth is not all our own doing, “God, who desires all people to be saved and come to a knowledge of the Truth”, helps us, and draws us closer to Him by Grace.
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dronald
Guest
Right, I agree. Which by those so means someone could conclude that the books of the NT are the right ones; which all Church’s have agreed on anyway. Really a useless discussion as I’ve said before that someone can make an agreement a point of contention.
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JMM1957
Guest
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Michael68
Guest
I am a cradle Catholic and like many I left the Church for a period. I was in my early 20’s and I experimented with other churches. Through this, the Catholic Church became clearer and clearer to me as the One, True Church.
It could be private revelation that brought me back. I did weigh the pros and cons. I believe the Holy Spirit was leading me through this process.
Peace,
Michael
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dronald
Guest
Awesome.
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rcwitness
Guest
You could certainly “conclude” the Church was/is right about the Canon (or any Teaching) but that doesn’t mean you did that from the beginning. Furthermore, many individuals probably have all sorts of heterodox opinions regarding what is Scripture, what it means and what our duties in the faith are. No one’s opinion has authority over the Church. Only one person can exercise that authority, the person in the office Jesus appointed Peter to. But generally it is exercised by the Magisterium.
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PRmerger
Guest
If you could tell us how you came to the conclusion that Hebrews is inspired and the Epistles of Clement are not, that would be helpful.
What “means” did you use to discern this?
And did you use these “means” to read all of the over 400 ancient Christian texts?
And did you, just by coincidence, come to the same conclusion that the Catholic Church did?
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