The central contradiction running through the arguments of many of those new atheists authors

  • Thread starter Thread starter Quid_estVeritas
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Wide press?

It was given NO PRESS, it’s just repeated over and over on atheist web sites while they whine about how the theist world doesn’t like them. I said it earlier, most theists and Christians don’t dislike atheists because they don’t believe in God, most of us could care less what you believe, most believers dislike atheists because there are*** so many ***atheists who are jerks. wake up boy, that’s the real reason
To be frank, given your demeanor I’m confident to say that people like you are the reason so many atheists dislike believers.

I’ve said this elsewhere and I’ll say it again here; you may be the only Bible some people read, be aware of that.
 
care to show us the “press” that anti-atheist Bush quote got?

we have this internet thing-a-ma-jig, maybe you can show us a story in the Washington Post or New York Times?
 
Ok, let’s deal with this.

Of course it would be. My answer to that question is “no.” I don’t believe in any gods…that’s my definition of atheist, remember?

The point I’m making is that there is a significant difference – and not merely semantic – between “not believing X” and “believing there’s no X.” If you honestly cannot comprehend that, tell me, and I will make one more good effort to get you to see the difference.
It’s not that I don’t comprehend it; it’s that I disagree. The difference is, in fact, one of semantics. Your definition of an atheist is “one who holds no belief in gods”; mine is “one who believes there are no gods” – these two positions are VERY different.

An absence of belief in X includes the absence of belief in Not-X. If one believes in Not-X, then one has a belief **about ** X. Therefore, an a-X-ist holds an affirmative belief that X does not exist.
The question here is “Do you think the defendant is guilty?”
You can answer that question “no” even if you don’t believe the defendant is innocent. That’s how our justice system is set up: the prosecution has to prove its case beyond a reasonable doubt, and those who are in the “not guilty” camp include those who believe the defendant is innocent and those who merely aren’t convinced of the guilt of the defendant.
No, the question I raised is independent of the legal system’s guilty/not guilty distinction. I was positing that, even in your hypothetical jury, most of the jurors would either believe in the defendant’s guilt or his innocence, and that some would not know. Assuming a lack of evidence or a legally reasonable doubt, they may be forced to **find **him “not guilty” in the eyes of the law, but that is not the same thing as believing he is not guilty. Hence, my suggestion that the jurors would either believe X or Not-X – or just not know.
The fact of the matter is that historically Christian slave owners often appealed to the Bible as justification for holding slaves. I’m not wildly interpolating from the text here: the book gives instructions for the Israelites to keep slaves – including rules for beating them, I might add – and contains an injunction for slaves to obey their masters.
I don’t think it’s off base to suggest that the book endorses slavery.
So why does Christ never say “owning another human being is morally wrong”? Why didn’t Jesus let Paul in on that little secret?
It would seem to me that a god who doesn’t want people enslaving one another would not inspire a book that ostensibly supports the practice.
Fair enough – but I still have to question the values of a god who inspires a book and doesn’t bother ever saying in it once that it’s wrong to own another human being.
Far from the work of some “objective morality” that imposes itself on the world from beyond, what we have here seems like a straightforward case of society’s values gradually changing over time.
As fascinating as this particular debate is, we must let it go because we’re getting off topic. I will say, though, that the bold section above speaks to my point – perhaps I wasn’t clear about it. God allowed and still allows us to discover and develop our understanding of truth at a pace at which we can comprehend it. Society’s values, as you call it, do change over time – and it was not until humanity was ready that slavery began to fall by the wayside. That many slaveowners called themselves Christians does not mean that the Church – or God – ever endorsed slavery. True, it was tolerated for centuries, but it was eventually banned when our collective morality had been shaped to the point that we could accept that slavery was wrong. This is the battle we must forever fight against evil.

Peace,
Dante
 
AT, I asked a question of you previously and maybe you missed it, or perhaps you thought I was being facetious. Anyway, I’ll ask it again and elaborate.

When you are faced with a moral question and consult your values, I’ll call it Moral Decisionmaking, what reason or reasons do you give yourself for engaging in the process?

Will the answer to the question vary among atheists? and if so, how?

By way of example, following are some reasons people might have for Moral Decisionmaking:
  • I believe there are moral rules and I am bound to try to follow them
  • I believe that I have a moral duty to act in a way to most benefit my fellow humans
  • I recognize that how my behavior is viewed by others will affect their treatment of me and I want to maximize beneficial treatment I receive from others
  • I have a gut instinct for what is right and wrong and I just follow it because that seems to make me the happiest
Perhaps you can understand what I’m getting at. Basically I am seeking understanding of how moral systems operate for an atheist. I realize that there are various ethical systems developed by atheists, I just wonder how, as they work on such theories and systems, they answer the question, why am I working on this?

Thanks.
 
care to show us the “press” that anti-atheist Bush quote got?

we have this internet thing-a-ma-jig, maybe you can show us a story in the Washington Post or New York Times?
Look at this internet of yours. See if you can find it… I think it’s probably out there somewhere.

In the light of this ‘thing-a-ma-jig,’ ‘press’ can be used to mean more than graying sheets of paper whose ink gets all over your fingers.
 
AT, I asked a question of you previously and maybe you missed it, or perhaps you thought I was being facetious. Anyway, I’ll ask it again and elaborate.

When you are faced with a moral question and consult your values, I’ll call it Moral Decisionmaking, what reason or reasons do you give yourself for engaging in the process?

Will the answer to the question vary among atheists? and if so, how?

By way of example, following are some reasons people might have for Moral Decisionmaking:
  • I believe there are moral rules and I am bound to try to follow them
  • I believe that I have a moral duty to act in a way to most benefit my fellow humans
  • I recognize that how my behavior is viewed by others will affect their treatment of me and I want to maximize beneficial treatment I receive from others
  • I have a gut instinct for what is right and wrong and I just follow it because that seems to make me the happiest
Perhaps you can understand what I’m getting at. Basically I am seeking understanding of how moral systems operate for an atheist. I realize that there are various ethical systems developed by atheists, I just wonder how, as they work on such theories and systems, they answer the question, why am I working on this?

Thanks.
I know I’m not AntiTheist but I hope you won’t mind if I take a crack at this question (too).

I thankfully live a life where I don’t encounter very many complicated moral situations–downside it’s a bit boring at times but that’s not germane here–so most of my moral decisions can be made but just being a nice guy. Hold doors open for old ladies and people with small children, for example. I think that you would get a wide variety of answers if you asked a variety of atheists but I think the same would be true, perhaps with a somewhat decreased scope of variety, if you asked an assortment of Christians.

When I come to a complicated moral question then I usually try to look at it from as many moral perspectives as possible (utilitarian, aeritaic and deonotological) and see what I see. If the answers differ, how do they do so and why? Are the solutions I’m considering the only (reasonable) possibilities? I usually hang my moral hat on the hook of Kant’s categorical imperative but it’s by no means glued there.

I hope this answers your question(s) and I hope I didn’t miss any.
 
I know I’m not AntiTheist but I hope you won’t mind if I take a crack at this question (too).

I thankfully live a life where I don’t encounter very many complicated moral situations–downside it’s a bit boring at times but that’s not germane here–so most of my moral decisions can be made but just being a nice guy. Hold doors open for old ladies and people with small children, for example. I think that you would get a wide variety of answers if you asked a variety of atheists but I think the same would be true, perhaps with a somewhat decreased scope of variety, if you asked an assortment of Christians.

When I come to a complicated moral question then I usually try to look at it from as many moral perspectives as possible (utilitarian, aeritaic and deonotological) and see what I see. If the answers differ, how do they do so and why? Are the solutions I’m considering the only (reasonable) possibilities? I usually hang my moral hat on the hook of Kant’s categorical imperative but it’s by no means glued there.

I hope this answers your question(s) and I hope I didn’t miss any.
Thank you very much. But I guess I did not articulate my question well. Why do you bother holding a door or bother trying to get the right answer to a tough question? Why do you care?

By the way, I’m not implying that atheists are uncaring, selfish people. I just wonder what they think about the fact that they care.
 
ThomasToo

*What distinguishes an atheist is that he doesn’t believe in any gods just like a belief in Jesus (amongst other theological points) is what distinguishes a Christian. *

As James said in his epistle, “Faith without works is dead.” Christ also said it. Criminals in or out of prison are not famous for their works of charity. Christ also preached this in Matthew 25.

What works have the atheists done lately? Hmm? :rolleyes:

Where are their hospitals, their orphanages, their schools, their soup kitchens, their shelters, etc. etc.? Beats me. 🤷
 
Thank you very much. But I guess I did not articulate my question well. Why do you bother holding a door or bother trying to get the right answer to a tough question? Why do you care?

By the way, I’m not implying that atheists are uncaring, selfish people. I just wonder what they think about the fact that they care.
Because it makes people happy.
 
It’s not that I don’t comprehend it; it’s that I disagree. The difference is, in fact, one of semantics. Your definition of an atheist is “one who holds no belief in gods”; mine is “one who believes there are no gods” – these two positions are VERY different.
I think you are mixing things up a bit.

a-theist means ‘one without god’.
anti-theist means ‘one against [the notion of] god’

What you describe as “one who believes there are no gods” is actually an anti-theist. By definition all anti-theist are a-theist as well. However, not all a-theist are anti-theist.
 
ThomasToo

*What distinguishes an atheist is that he doesn’t believe in any gods just like a belief in Jesus (amongst other theological points) is what distinguishes a Christian. *

As James said in his epistle, “Faith without works is dead.” Christ also said it. Criminals in or out of prison are not famous for their works of charity. Christ also preached this in Matthew 25.

What works have the atheists done lately? Hmm? :rolleyes:

Where are their hospitals, their orphanages, their schools, their soup kitchens, their shelters, etc. etc.? Beats me. 🤷
So it’s not about going to church but about doing charity as a result of one’s beliefs?

How many scientific and technological advances have been the result of atheists? Is it possible the reason we have heart transplants, dialysis machines or high-yield dwarf wheat (responsible for saving over a billion people from starvation)–to give just three examples–is because atheists ‘do science’? There are plenty of atheist charities but there are also lots of all the organizations you described–and many without any religious affiliation (which is basically as atheist as charities get, by the way)–so atheists may simply donate time and money to areligious charities.
 
I say this with all due respect but that’s quite possibly one of the biggest cop-outs I’ve ever heard. The Church–that is to say the assembled hierarchy of cardinals, bishops, priests and lay people with the full consent of this ordained hierarchy–has done an immense amount of terrible things. It cannot get off scott free by saying that the weren’t doing what Jesus is said to have taught; I don’t care whose teachings they were following when the Church does something, it still does it even if it’s not christ-like (i.e. Christian).
Immense amount of terrible things? Unsubstantiated handwavium. Name one, just one, with an authoritative reference. It will either be 1) a lie or 2) not an action by the Magesterium, but rather an individual.
On the question of slavery and the Church.
Earlier I noted that AntiTheist went on quite a rant about the Bible and the Church supporting slavery in the past. Again, these charges are gross oversimplifications to the extent that the conclusions are objectively wrong. Apparently I was ignored when I suggested that AntiTheist learn a little about facts and history. If you are going to attack the Church and the Bible on the grounds of slavery, you should at a bare minimum 1) learn the facts and 2) learn what was actually taught - both now and in the past - so that you can attack what was actually taught. Unless you do that, you are guilty of believing things without evidence; worse, of being willfuly ignorant to support an unsubstantiated belief - which is inconsistent with your philosophy.

Slavery and the Church: catholic.com/thisrock/1999/9907fea2.asp

Catechism of the Catholic Church paragraph 2414: vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s2c2a7.htm#2414
On the question of “lack of belief.”
Upon reflection, I think Charlemagne is right, all this talk of “lack of belief” is meaningless semantics to justify an actual disbelief in God. It’s quite ironic that the strongest proponent for this position is a person who has named themself AntiTheist. While I am sure that AntiTheist would posit that he or she is simply against theism, and has a lack of belief his or himself, I think defining oneself in opposition to a position proclaiming belief in God to be quite telling.
 
So it’s not about going to church but about doing charity as a result of one’s beliefs?

Yes. By their fruits you shall know them. 😉

There are plenty of atheist charities…

I noticed the long list you provided! :rolleyes:
 
Immense amount of terrible things? Unsubstantiated handwavium. Name one, just one, with an authoritative reference. It will either be 1) a lie or 2) not an action by the Magesterium, but rather an individual.
My point is that an individual acting as a member of the Church hierarchy and acting in the name of the Church either needs to be formally rebuked for the action or that the Church is ultimately answerable for it.

Imagine if Secretary of State Rice went somewhere in Sub-Saharan Africa and began talking about the benefit and necessity of condoms in the fight against AIDS (this is an arbitrary example and I don’t want to pull this discussion in that direction). She is either speaking in her official capacity and the United States and President Bush’s administration are responsible for the remarks and their fallout or she was speaking on her own and President Bush’s administration should distance itself from her comments given the assumption that without a formal statement the first scenario is–rightfully–assumed.

I gave a list above but if I must go with only one I will say the burning of 15,000 people at the stake in the first decade of the Spanish Inquisition (Henry Kamen, The Spanish Inquisition, 62) and if I can be more broad the very notion of the Inquisition as a means to ensure and create orthodoxy by pain and fear (cf. terrorism).
 
So it’s not about going to church but about doing charity as a result of one’s beliefs?

Yes. By their fruits you shall know them. 😉
By that logic I’m a Christian…
There are plenty of atheist charities…

I noticed the long list you provided! :rolleyes:
Sorry, I had a link on my clipboard and clearly forgot to paste it. techskeptic.blogspot.com/2007/12/atheist-charities.html

I would happily claim any organization that makes no formal religious statement as for all intents and purposes atheist insofar as it has no established position on the existence of any gods. I doubt that you will accept that definition but frankly when we’re trying to do good I don’t know many atheists that sees the fact that we’re atheists as important.
 
On the question of evil perpetrated by proclaimed believers in a philosophy, or the good done by proclaimed believers in a philsophy.
There’s a lot of banter about “who killed whom,” and whether theists or atheists have done more good works (orphanages, scientific discoveries of better species of wheat, whatever). I think this is misdirected, as you cannot judge a philosophy by those who fail to live up to it or indeed by the actions of a few. You have to judge the philosophy itself.

In terms of practical consequences, when judging a philosophy the two most meaningful questions are: “is a given philosophy more or less likely to be consistent with the commission of a grave evil?” and “is a philosophy more or less likely to promote the common good?” The answer to the first question is critically important, because if a philosophy is consistent with the commission of a grave evil, then that philosophy is self-evidently bad (practically). If honest, even AntiTheist would have to agree, as he or she believes that theism is wrong and results in “bad things”. The answer to the second question is an indicator of how closely a given philosopy conforms to the Truth.

If a philosophy is practically bad, it must be abandoned as detrimental to the self and society. That is why people get so upset and defensive about defending their philosophy as being correct.

So, we are comparing atheism and theism. There is some debate as to what “atheism” is, but for my purposes both “lack of belief without evidence” and “disbelief” in God can be equivalent. As for Theism, for simplicity, I will confine myself to Catholicism because that is what I assert is the philosophy that holds the fullness of Truth. (Other philosophies, even atheism, can have aspects of the Truth).

At it’s core, Catholicism preaches love God, in the person of the Trinity, above all other things and love for neighbor as for self, including enemies, to the point of self sacrifice. Catholicism admonishes both the active promotion of the common good, as well as both avoidance of and opposition to evil.

Any evil deed commited by a Catholic is inconsistent with Catholicism itself. Therefore, for both the individual and for society, Catholicism as a philosophy is ordered towards establishing order, promoting good, and suppressing evil.

In contrast, atheism, does not preach anything other than either 1) lack of belief or 2) disbelief. Atheism, in either form, by itself, stands for nothing. An atheist may believe whatever he or she wants, and different atheists can have radically different moral conclusions regarding actions.

However, nothing stops an atheist from taking a more sinister road. For example, nothing about atheism prevents Stalin (an atheist) from stating that his murderous pogroms were good. While Leela and other atheists may naturally recoil from such a statement and provide various reasons why Stalin’s pogroms were NOT good (maybe even Evil), nothing about atheism as a philosophy itself contradicts Stalin’s position. Atheism is consistent with Stalin’s actions and his beliefs regarding the rightness of his actions.

AntiTheist has argued that you cannot logically be lead from atheism to evil (Stalin, killing all religious people, etc.) Upon further reflection, in a vacuum, AntiTheist is correct - nothing compels an atheist to do evil.

However, atheism is consistent with Stalin or any other evil. This should be self evident; there’s a reason why Soviet Russian and China have adopted atheism as the state religion, because nothing in atheism *prevents *the belief that the state has absolute uncontested authority over everything, including life and death, and those in power can do what they want with no limits.

So, the crux of the problem is that atheism, as a philosophy in and of itself, is not inconsistent with the commission of what nearly everyone acknowledges is grave evil. While an atheist may properly deny that atheism leads to or compels evil, it is undeniable that evil is consistent with atheism. Whether that consistency derives from a lack of fear of eternal consequences, from the unprovability of a given ethical standard, or something else, is a matter of interesting speculation.

If so, then atheism is a philosophy to be rejected as bad for both the individual and society. Ironically, even if atheism were the Truth (a disputed point) for the same reason atheism should be rejected as a philosophy because it is inherently dangerous in that it is consistent with evil - as demonstrated by history.

Turning to the second question posed above, atheism is at best neutral on the second question (whether it is more or less likely to promote the common good). Again, the decision of the atheist to support the common good is up to the atheist; atheism in either form neither confirms nor denies promotion the common good.

The question then becomes, “which philosophy to adopt?” Obviously I would advocate for Catholicism because I assert it proclaims the fullness Truth (I’ve advanced arguments a plenty on why, but leave them off from here). Catholicism as a philosophy meets the test of both questions, whether it is consistent with evil (it actively opposes evil) and whether it promotes the common good (it actively requires adherents to promote the common good). The assertions to the contrary are one of 1) false, 2) lies, or 3) misdirected onto a fallen person instead of on the philosophy itself.

The atheist might challenge, why not Budhhism or Islam or Hinduism, Hellenism, or the Baptist Church down the road? That’s a different question, directed towards which of all of the race horses in the race is the winner, but the question itself does not change the above conclusions - especially the conclusion that atheism is a broken philosophy.
 
I gave a list above but if I must go with only one I will say the burning of 15,000 people at the stake in the first decade of the Spanish Inquisition (Henry Kamen, The Spanish Inquisition, 62) and if I can be more broad the very notion of the Inquisition as a means to ensure and create orthodoxy by pain and fear (cf. terrorism).
The Spanish inquisition was never a magesterial teaching of the Catholic Church, and thus falls under the category of “actions performed by individuals,” rather than an evaluation of the philosophy itself. Additionally, you and your source have oversimplified it. Read this: catholic.com/library/Inquisition.asp (directed towards a debate between Catholics and some protestants, but nonetheless helpful for purposes of this issue here).

Additionally, you do not have to denounce a given action to avoid being complicit with a gravely evil act. The Catholic Church does not denounce every individual and particular act of murder as evil - but does proclaim that, generally, unjustified killing (murder) is evil.

Furthermore, your example of the secretary of state is misplaced. The secretary of state actually represented the position of the State itself. If wrongly represented, then the State would have to retract or denounce the position stated. That is not the case with an evil act committed by a member of the Church, even possibly an individual leader in his or her individual capacity (rather than representing an official teaching of the Church).
I would happily claim any organization that makes no formal religious statement as for all intents and purposes atheist insofar as it has no established position on the existence of any gods. I doubt that you will accept that definition but frankly when we’re trying to do good I don’t know many atheists that sees the fact that we’re atheists as important.
As I showed in my last post, the issue of atheist or religious charities are not the real questions, but rather whether the philosophy itself is consistent or inconsistent with evil and whether the philosopy itself advocates the promotion of the common good.

Atheism fails the first test and is at best neutral on the second.
 
The Spanish inquisition was never a magesterial teaching of the Catholic Church, and thus falls under the category of “actions performed by individuals,” rather than an evaluation of the philosophy itself. Additionally, you and your source have oversimplified it. Read this: catholic.com/library/Inquisition.asp (directed towards a debate between Catholics and some protestants, but nonetheless helpful for purposes of this issue here).

Additionally, you do not have to denounce a given action to avoid being complicit with a gravely evil act. The Catholic Church does not denounce every individual and particular act of murder as evil - but does proclaim that, generally, unjustified killing (murder) is evil.

Furthermore, your example of the secretary of state is misplaced. The secretary of state actually represented the position of the State itself. If wrongly represented, then the State would have to retract or denounce the position stated. That is not the case with an evil act committed by a member of the Church, even possibly an individual leader in his or her individual capacity (rather than representing an official teaching of the Church).
I think one needs to give special attention to actions done in an organization’s name by members of that organization (not just adherents but members of the clergy). As the recent scandal with child raping priests has shown it’s not enough to denounce the act itself but also to denounce (and ideally punish) those in one’s ranks that are responsible.

I picked the one point I did because it’s not oversimplified; 15,000 people were burned at the stake by people acting in the name of the Church with the Church’s support–implicit or otherwise. Unless, of course, you can provide me contemporaneous documentation that the Church did in fact oppose these activities (and yet didn’t speak out on the topic or recall/call off its priests who were involved).

No action is a teaching so you’ve structured your argument that any claim against any action could roll off leaving your Church pristine. My example of Secretary of State Rice was based on the assumption–evidently mistaken–that former President Bush’s administration was opposed to the use of condoms and I didn’t want to get into the Mexico City policy. How is is that leaders in the Church, in committing evil acts–in the name of the Church I must add–do not warrant and official distinction and rebuke?
As I showed in my last post, the issue of atheist or religious charities are not the real questions, but rather whether the philosophy itself is consistent or inconsistent with evil and whether the philosopy itself advocates the promotion of the common good.
Many atheists, myself included, feel that a world without gods or an afterlife is one in which we have more reason to help one another not less. In a meditation on the picture “Pale Blue Dot,” Carl Sagan wrote the following:
Our planet is a lonely speck in the great enveloping cosmic dark. In our obscurity, in all this vastness, there is no hint that help will come from elsewhere to save us from ourselves…
It has been said that astronomy is a humbling and character-building experience. There is perhaps no better demonstration of the folly of human conceits than this distant image of our tiny world. To me, it underscores our responsibility to deal more kindly with one another, and to preserve and cherish the pale blue dot, the only home we’ve ever known.
The problem I see in your argument is that while Christianity, more or less, offers a complete weltanschauung while atheism answers only one (small) question. I think a better comparison, to looks at apples and apples, is between theism and atheism. I think taking only the principle ‘there exists some supernatural entity over and above the universe’ compared to ‘there is probably no such entity’ gives you lackluster answers to both of your questions. If you want to compare the full body of Catholic theology then take an atheist’s full worldview and then see how the answers compare. Seems only fair…
 
ThomasToo

*I gave a list above but if I must go with only one I will say the burning of 15,000 people at the stake in the first decade of the Spanish Inquisition (Henry Kamen, The Spanish Inquisition, 62) and if I can be more broad the very notion of the Inquisition as a means to ensure and create orthodoxy by pain and fear (cf. terrorism). *

Too bad you have to go back 500 years to find 15,000 victims of bad Catholics. 😉

I only have to go back 70-80 years to find tens of millions annihilated by the atheist regimes of Stalin, Hitler, and Mao.

How is it that leaders in the Church, in committing evil acts–in the name of the Church I must add–do not warrant and official distinction and rebuke?

Again, you are way off base, blind-sided by your own bigotry?

Pope John Paul II has already apologized for all the past sins of past leaders of the Church. However, he did not apologize for the existence of the Catholic Church, nor should he have, any more than we should apologize for slavery but not apologize for being the United States.

It was not the Church that committed evil acts in the name of the Church, but evil men inside the Church that committed evil acts. Would you indict the entire United States for the evil act of a President or a Senator? No, you would indict the Senator or the President.

When Christ created his Church, he did not create it so that it could do evil things. He created it strictly for good things to be done in his name. Every good thing done in his name is godly. Every bad thing done in his name is satanic. Bad popes, bad bishops, and bad priests have been deposed from office down through history. The poet Dante even put some of them in hell.

Even a less than desirable American president was deposed … Nixon. But Nixon’s acts were not warranted by the Constitution any more that the Inquisition was warranted by the Gospels.

Are you going to indict all Americans who ever lived for the sins of a few bad Americans? Then why indict all Catholics who ever lived for the sins of a few bad Catholics?

I do not indict all atheists for the sins of Stalin, Hitler, and Mao. But they were atheists. If you want to see what the world will be like without any religion at all, you got a quick glimpse of the possibilities between 1920-1950.

Read some history other than the Inquisition. 😉 Start with *How the Catholic Church Built Western Civilization *by Thomas E. Woods … if you dare.

You need to get over the Inquisition and see that the Church has always been vastly important to Western Civilization even when some of her members betrayed their calling.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top