The Charismatic Movement and Glossolalia

[Omyo12]

Paul speaks about a variety of ‘tongues’ not all were meant to speak a foreign language-some were meant as a praise language and a prayer language.

Well, Paul was around at the very beginnings of the Church, and as I stated early, many early Church Fathers acknowledged this practice.

there are many Charsimatics who don’t use tongues at all.
Can different practices cause confusion- yes but you can say that about any movement. As far as behavior that some find unusual- that is up to the bishop and the diocese to decide what can and can’t be done and what behavior is deemed proper.Bishops decide that not lay people.

As I stated before, I have no problem with this movement. However I’m just weary it may send some folks too much (though obviously not most). As Pope Benedict XVI acknowledged the movement, he also stressed they not stray from traditional Church practices.

As far as practices being restored what about practices and devotions started by the laity?

Interesting, what are some examples?

I just find it odd that no holy man speaks in tongues. The Pope doesn’t and I’m sure most if not all cardinals don’t either. I’m sure most bishops and priests don’t either.

These holy men do not receive these gifts yet a group of laymen do?
But who am I to question the workings and dwellings of the Spirit… (if it indeed is the Spirit)

I’m not condemning the movement, if it promotes Church worship and the re-evangelization of society, I’m all for it.

 

[una_fides]

God is to be worshiped…nothing else and no one else. In the end, God is the final judge as to who was most :yup::yuppen to His grace.

"God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth" (John 4:24). We must not forget the last word in that verse. God has determined a specific way in which he desires to be worshiped. We must not be deceived into thinking that worshiping God is designed to entertain the people or focus on us and how to make us feel good. It’s all about Him and how he wishes to be worshiped. The Church has established rules and regulations at Mass that preserve the actual prayers and practices of the apostles throughout history. They did not all dance and fall on the ground in chaos. St. Paul firmly rebuked the Corinthians whose practices he said were being disorderly. “For God is not the author of confusion but of peace, as in all churches of the saints” (1 Corinthians 14:33).
I lead a Bible study group, and we are currently finishing up the book of 1 Corinthians. What many charismatics fail to realize is the serious problems the Church at Corinth had. They had dissensions and schisms, they were living extremely immoral lives, and they had not grown in the faith but were still “babes in Christ” that Paul laments he could still not yet feed with meat but still had to be fed with milk. It is in this Church that people were running wild with the spiritual gifts and were making a disgrace of things. St. Paul said he would “rather speak five words with understanding than ten thousand words in a tongue” (1 Cor 14:19). In St. Paul’s mind, tongues were at the bottom of the totem pole in spiritual gifts, and these gifts were being abused in this Church. No wonder the Spirit stopped producing this gift among the baptized soon after the apostolic age, after the gospel message had been preached and spread in different languages.

The Holy Spirit wishes to be worshiped in both spirit and truth, hence he cannot bestow these gifts on those who are opposed to his truth and to his Church.
From Pope Leo XII’s encyclical Ubi Primum 1823-1829:
14. Certainly many remarkable authors, adherents of the true philosophy, have taken pains to attack and crush this strange view. But the matter is so self-evident that it is superfluous to give additional arguments. It is impossible for the most true God, who is Truth Itself, the best, the wisest Provider, and the Rewarder of good men, to approve all sects who profess false teachings which are often inconsistent with one another and contradictory, and to confer eternal rewards on their members. For we have a surer word of the prophet, and in writing to you We speak wisdom among the perfect; not the wisdom of this world but the wisdom of God in a mystery. By it we are taught, and by divine faith we hold one Lord, one faith, one baptism, and that no other name under heaven is given to men except the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth in which we must be saved. This is why we profess that there is no salvation outside the Church.
[21] He who hears you, hears me; and he who despises you, despises me; and the Church is the pillar and firmament of truth, as the apostle Paul teaches.[22] In reference to these words St. Augustine says: “Whoever is without the Church will not be reckoned among the sons, and whoever does not want to have the Church as mother will not have God as father.”[23] papalencyclicals.net/Leo12/l12ubipr.htm

 

[Omyo12]

God is to be worshiped…nothing else and no one else. In the end, God is the final
judge as to who was most :yup::yup: open to His grace.

But its also not about who prays the loudest…

While these verses may be apply to charismatics, they show Christ favors humble and silent prayer.

Matthew 6

5 And when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites; for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, that they may be seen by men. Truly I say to you, they have their reward. 6 But when you pray, go into your room and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you. 7 And in praying do not heap up empty phrases as the Gentiles do for they think tat they will be heard for their many words. 8 Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him. 9 Pray then likes this:
Our Father who art in heaven,
Hallowed be thy name.
10 Thy kingdom come.
Thy will be done,
On earth as it is in heaven.
11 Give us this day our daily bread;
12 And forgive us our trespasses,
As we forgive those who trespass against us;
13 And lead us not into temptation,
But deliver us from evil.

If you read Matthew 6:1-4 concerning almsgiving, you see its also the humbleness in our actions that Christ rewards.

 

[Paul_Brann]

15 year ago I went to an Alpha Course and Holy Spirit Day (Penticost) run by Fr David Ryan, St Georges RC Church, Warminster. I was introduced to this extrovert behaviour, they laid hands on me and ‘prayed in tongues’ and I felt obliged to ‘comply’. I was resolute enough to accept whatever God wanted me to do, I was genuinely willing to allow to happen whatever God willed…nothing happened…I was the ‘odd one out’ but I did feel genuine. I was expected to fall down in the spirit…I did not resit but I did not act out either. I felt that I was expected to conform, someone was waiting behind me to catch me when I fell. I was willing to accept whatever God wanted of me, but I was not struck down. It seemed to me that most people there (including me) were very needy and slightly off beam. The whole thing seemed a little bit contrived and, for me, a distraction from rather than an attraction to God. A power trip of sorts for some members there. What a funny old world this is, and Jesus asked us simply to love God and to love one another.
Paul

 

[sauce]

Only God knows who is holy.

Only God knows who pays Him lip service.

Pope John Paul II prayed with charismatic leaders and he prayed in tongues alongside them. Among those present was Catholic author and guest on EWTN
Ralph Martin. This was in the Vatican. I heard Ralph Martin say so in a talk he gave
at a conference.

So now laymen aren’t holy? And holiness is a prerequisite for receiving a gift from God?
Who was it that abused Catholic boys and girls? Clergy I believe.
And many bishops covered up for years. And these guys preside at Mass.

No man, no group, no sect, no practice are worthy to be held up higher than Jesus Christ. We can kick God’s gifts aside, but how foolish indeed. Actually, how vainglorious.

 

[sauce]

15 year ago I went to an Alpha Course and Holy Spirit Day (Penticost) run by Fr David Ryan, St Georges RC Church, Warminster. I was introduced to this extrovert behaviour, they laid hands on me and ‘prayed in tongues’ and I felt obliged to ‘comply’. I was resolute enough to accept whatever God wanted me to do, I was genuinely willing to allow to happen whatever God willed…nothing happened…I was the ‘odd one out’ but I did feel genuine. I was expected to fall down in the spirit…I did not resit but I did not act out either. I felt that I was expected to conform, someone was waiting behind me to catch me when I fell. I was willing to accept whatever God wanted of me, but I was not struck down. It seemed to me that most people there (including me) were very needy and slightly off beam. The whole thing seemed a little bit contrived and, for me, a distraction from rather than an attraction to God. A power trip of sorts for some members there. What a funny old world this is, and Jesus asked us simply to love God and to love one another.
Paul

Hi Paul,

I’ve been to meetings like this. It’s called the human condition.
I’ve also been to Mass where couples can’t keep their hands off each other.
Talk about distraction. And they talk and talk during Mass.

YIKES!

 

[praise_Jesus_1]

I’d just like to share my viewpoint on the Charismatic movement. When I was younger I have been to a few ‘Charismatic’ retreats, I also spent some time in a Catholic seminary that had a charismatic aspect to their spirituality.

The difference between the retreats and the seminary was like night and day for me. From the various retreats I had been to it seemed as if people were almost encouraged to just let loose and speak in tongues and that anybody could do it… just open yourself up to the Holy Spirit.

At the seminary it was made clear that the charismatic gifts were GIFTS from the Holy Spirit and thus the Holy Spirit could manifest these gifts as it so chose. There was no pressure to display any of the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

My intention isn’t to put down any charismatics. But from my own experience I would be wary of any more charismatic retreats. And I see a lot of the stuff that goes on at the charismatic retreats that I have been to as a real distraction from God. But I do not deny that people are able to receive gifts of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Paul_Brann]

Hi Sauce,
Some clergy abused children just as some lay people have abused children just as some medical doctors have abused children and others. Some superiors have covered up this abuse. I attend a local Overcomers Outreach (a bit like a Christian version of AA) and there are a few Charismatic Protestants there and much hidden anti Catholic feeling. I try not to express my difference too vociferously but there is a certain claim to superiority by those who ‘talk in tongues’, as opposed to those of us who, in their eyes, ‘worship the virgin!’ They even teach the willing to learn just how to ‘talk in tongues’. Seems to negate the idea that it’s a gift of the spirit if one has to learn it.
Paul

 

[sauce]

Hi Paul,

Understood. Been around plenty of non-Catholics who look at you funny when you say you’re Catholic. I love being Catholic. To me it’s the only way to go.
I also have experienced renewal. And I’ve been around those who don’t have common sense. Or are manipulative whether they are charasmatic or traditional Catholics.
So it goes. People are people wherever you go. I tend to get along best with my protestent
and Catholic friends from childhood. We don’t let religion get in the way of a good friendship.

About the tongues thing: I think that they are trying to help people to “yield.”
Nobody can “teach” tongues. But they can encourage a person to yield.
If one doesn’t get it, it’s no big deal. Everyone expresses and manifests the spirit
differently anyway.

Scripture has noted, “THIS IS THAT WHICH WAS SPOKEN OF BY THE
PROPHET JOEL…”

Today, I’m afraid most people aren’t interested so much in operating in the gifts of the spirit. They’re more enthusiastic about the newest iphone. More fun I guess.
But I jest.

regards

sauce

 

[hope_7]

There are all kinds of things that many of you have experianced, positive and bad when it comes to things that have been done in differant groups when it comes to the baptism of the Holy Spirit and speaking in tongues. There are many ideas and beliefs that are shared here Including what other people have said and taught. I find that everyone wants to defend what they believe.The problem is that most hear are looking at the wrong thing and from a perspective that keeps them from really seeing what this is. Because they have not been willing to take a serious look at Gods word to see whai He says. Untill this is done thease types of conversations really get us nowhere. We are no closer to the truth then when we began.

I could give you scripture after scripture about this but I feel many of you would just blow me off or try to discredit me in some way . 

If you really want to learn about this being baptised in the Holy Spirit and speaking in tongues. The best place to look is in the Holy Scriptures, in humility, and with prayer, asking God to show you what He says about this. Ask Him to help you to read this without preconcieved ideas and in a spirit of poverty. Pray over His word untill you know from Him that you have what He wants for you. We must be poor in spirit or we cant acknoweledge our need before God.. If we have pride it will not let us admit to our need and it will exault us over God Himself with us telling Him what we will except and what we will reject, even trying to force an answer from Him can be a sign of this enemy called pride.

 

[sauce]

People aren’t interested. Until they have an Epiphany …

“THIS IS THAT…”

 

[tm30]

As dangerous as schismatic traditionalists?
It is obvious most here know diddly-squat about the charismatic Renewal.You want to take the extreme and make it seem like the everyday. It is simply not true. most Catholics do not know who the Charismatics are in the midst- they keep a low profile despite what you may think. as far as ectastic behaviorit’s always been in the Church and experienced by many saints. Ecstatics appear in both OT and NT. It can degenerate but that is true of many movements that are not under ecclesiastical control- which the Charismatic Renewal is.If you want to look for fanatics look to ultra- traditionalist who deny that the this pope and others are illigetimate.

I used to be a member of the Charismatic movement. I went to more than one Life in the Spirit event in California years ago. I used to pray in “tongues” regularly, assisted at healing masses, etc.

It took a while, but I finally came to the conclusion that the core reliance on feelings and emotions and physical display contradicts what sets us apart from the Pentecostals from whom much is borrowed in this movement. As if we just pray harder or sing louder or clap our hands the Holy Spirit will deign to fall upon us and reward us with warm feelings from heaven. I had no idea what I was saying when I was praying in tongues. I had no idea who or what I was calling on or praising, and what the response was. I have no idea what anyone else was praying, nor could anyone reasonably prove that they could actually interpret the gibberish.

I believe people in the Charismatic movement are well-intentioned. I am still friends with those I used to share membership with. They’re devout and love the Holy Eucharistic, but not surprisingly, they are also very much into Medjugorje. This is not a slap at any individuals, so please don’t take this personally. But we’re not Pentecostals. It’s not for us to expect the Holy Spirit to come down and dance a jig at our beck and call. The Spirit blows where HE wills, not where WE will.

I look back on my experience with the Charismatic movement as a well-intentioned desire to become closer to God. But they use an extremely liberal interpretation of “tongues” as it occurs in Scripture. The tongues spoken with by the Apostles were intelligible to people of every native language. Glossolalia is nothing of the sort. If people want to engage the Holy Spirit in a unique way, they only need to make frequent confessions and, if desired, get a spiritual director.

 

[tm30]

Some people are not open to the in-filling of God’s power so there is never a
demonstration of that power. It doesn’t make anyone a bad person either.

To make a comment about emotion and hype is not the correct story.
This is not about emotion. Or obsession. Or even a movement.

It’s about the Spirit of God renewing the face of the earth…if we are open to it.
I’ve often listened closely to clergy invoking the Holy Spirit at services. But I find it
odd that when the Holy Spirit shows up, many do not like the manner or form in which the Holy Spirit shows up. So it is criticized, repressed, and rejected by those who don’t
understand or are afraid.

What do you mean “when the Holy Spirit shows up”? Unlike doubting Thomas, I don’t need physical and emotional proof to know that “where two or more are gathered in my name, there am I in their midst…”

Why would God demonstrate His power to those who put Him to the test?

God is to be worshiped…nothing else and no one else. In the end, God is the final
judge as to who was most :yup::yup: open to His grace.

You mean the grace of spiritual discernment?

 

[tm30]

Hi Paul,

I’ve been to meetings like this. It’s called the human condition.
I’ve also been to Mass where couples can’t keep their hands off each other.
Talk about distraction. And they talk and talk during Mass.

YIKES!

So, it’s Paul’s fault that he wasn’t slain in the Spirit? Are you kidding me?

 

[sauce]

What do you mean “when the Holy Spirit shows up”? Unlike doubting Thomas, I don’t need physical and emotional proof to know that “where two or more are gathered in my name, there am I in their midst…”

Why would God demonstrate His power to those who put Him to the test?

You mean the grace of spiritual discernment?

There’s a demonstration of God’s power if there is a healing that takes place at the healing service, for instance. Or after the reception of the Eucharist. I’ve heard of this happening at Masses. God ministers to His people. It happens then and there at the service. It is a demonstration of His power. It is something He is doing, because He wants to. Not because we demand it or anything like that.

What do you mean by God being put to the test? I thought people gather with
expectant faith. Why do people go to Lourdes to bathe in the waters? I don’t
feel that that is necessary, but people go. I wouldn’t criticize anyone for going.

When the Spirit shows up, we see and hear manifestations, like prophecy, or the speaking in tongues with interpretations (not translations), which are a form of prophecy. Or “holy laughter” which is healing to a person experiencing that. God’s “Glory” is present and it can be “felt.” Some people have even seen the “glory cloud.”
Angels minister to people in this atmosphere of God’s Glory. Anything can happen.
But God is in the situation. Sometimes people don’t like it, because they think it
should be something else…or look like something else…or nothing at all.
“Words of knowledge,” a spiritual gift, is meant for someone in the gathering. It is for the purpose of “ministry.” And it is a demonstration of God’s power.

Discernment of spirits belongs with a ministry (not for entertainment) usually for
healing prayer and casting out of an evil spirit.

I wasn’t talking about spiritual discernment when I was talking about God knowing
who has best responded to His grace. His graces are many. One lives life the
best they can. And God is there for us with His grace.

People have to be “hungry” for a “touch of God.” That is totally up to the person.
The Holy Spirit is a gentlemen. He doesn’t force Himself on anyone.

One is free to partake or not partake. After all, it’s an invitation.

Hope this clears up a few concerns.

regards

 

[Omyo12]

sauce,

What do charismatics make of the gift of prophesy?
I’ve never attended a charismatic mass, so what other spiritual gives are common?

 

[sauce]

sauce,

What do charismatics make of the gift of prophesy?
I’ve never attended a charismatic mass, so what other spiritual gives are common?

I’m not an expert, and your question deserves a healthy answer. I can only give a little
bit of insight from experience. Prophecy as a gift of the Spirit is meant for those gathered. It usually is a comforting word, or a word of direction and encouragement. It is meant to build up the body of Christ, those present. It is referred to as new testament prophecy. Because it’s not adding anything to scripture. It is in the here and now.
All I know is we are meant to listen and pay attention when we hear it. And respond to God’s call if it applies. Or claim the blessing in faith if it applies. We also need to discern if the word is indeed from the Spirit. Others will confirm this in the group.

Mass is Mass. It’s just that the priest will incorporate praise and prophecy usually after communion where there is a peaceful place for it. Also. I’ve been at Mass where the priest is operating in the gift of the word of knowledge and he will call out something to the assembly that is being healed. Or something that someone present needs to hear as a direction for their life.

Hope this helps a little.

 

[Michael_Francis]

Several posts have been deleted for being off topic.

Please remain on your topic or this thread will be closed.

 

[IanGE]

I am saddened that so many think that the Charismatic Movement was started by the Protestants in the 1800s. Perhaps the title of this thread should be Charismatic RENEWAL, because the movement (the bestowal of charisms) began long before that!
Jesus’ last words to His disciples according to Luke (24:49): “And behold, I send the promise of My Father upon you, but stay in the city until you are clothed with power from on high.” (I use Greek (Koine) texts from Interlinear and Zonderman).
Acts 2, that first Pentecost and wow! were they clothed with power! Especially
V4: “And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit (pneumatos agiou, *breath holy *[as in God breathing into Adam-figure’s nostrils to give life I always think!], substance spirit which Jerome turned into Ghost when he went Latin), and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit gave them to speak out.”
Acts 10, Peter sent by the Spirit to Cornelius’ house, where a large gathering of Gentiles awaited his visit. Peter preached at their request and:
V 44 - 46: “While Peter was still speaking, the Holy Spirit fell on all hearing the word,
The circumcised believers who accompanied Peter were amazed that the gift of the Holy Spirit had also been poured out on the Gentiles. For they heard them speaking in tongues and magnifying God.”
Interestingly enough, Peter baptises them AFTERWARDS! I read other comments in this thread about tongues and Holy Spirit gifts being exclusively for ‘holy men’ and Apostles and Bishops: I praise and thank God for Gentiles and (that awful, divisive word) Laity - LIKE ME, on whom that promise of the Father yet falls!
Finally, a fave reading is the beginning of Acts 19. Paul meets some disciples in Ephesus. He asks them if they received the Holy Spirit; they declare they hadn’t heard of the Holy Spirit. Paul asks what baptism they received - they answer “the Baptism of John”. Paul says they need the Baptism of Jesus.
V6 : “As Paul laid his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied.”
As others have written, you will find ample evidence of Charismatic activity throughout Acts and the Epistles, notably 1 Cor. 12 -14. In the penultimate verse of Chapter 14, Paul writes: "Therefore my brothers, be eager to prophesy and DO NOT FORBID SPEAKING IN TONGUES.
While Charismatic activity apparently abounds in the 1st Century AD (pooh to BCE!), it is sad to note an almost total lack in Eusebius’ history (@338?). I remember a disparaging comment about a Church Council somewhere “…of course the Tongue-Speakers tried to put their tuppence in (or words to that effect)”. I guess that was when the Church decided that the Holy Spirit was not wanted on voyage. Shades of 2009!

 

[Paul_Brann]

I seem to remember that Paul also counselled his followers to not do anything that might make people feel uncomfortable of ‘put off’. He was also concerned that, if not carefully metered, his pride and fortitude might get in the way of his ultimate salvation. He was very human and I believe from a sect of Judaism (under the instruction of Gamalial) that also enjoyed this ‘gift’ of talking in tongues; so apparantly it wasn’t ‘new’ to the jewish followers of Jesus post penticost but had, in fact, been a continuation of a previous practice. However the ‘new wine’ incident was specific to penticost and, I believe, the true meaning of the ‘gift of tongues’ for the spreading of the message of salvation to those who could not speak Aramaic (of Greek, for that matter). I’ve also been to other ‘non-Christian’ events where there is emotional ‘hype’, and there have been claimed miracles and cures, the majority of which seem to be short lived and for the purpose of performance; witness the euphoric state of mind after supporting a football match when the home team wins…same sort of stuff really. I fear the danger of trying to interpret scripture on my own, or selecting small specific parts to score points. We are warned by Jesus Himself that the Devil can cite scripture for his own porpose. (And I’ve just done it!}
Paul