The Christian Dogma on Satan

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SATAN:
Table of Contents
Code:
In the Bible.
In the Apocrypha.
In the New Testament.
In Talmud and Midrash.
His Functions.
In the Cabala.
In the Bible.

Term used in the Bible with the general connotation of “adversary,” being applied (1) to an enemy in war (I Kings v. 18 [A. V. 4]; xi. 14, 23, 25), from which use is developed the concept of a traitor in battle (I Sam. xxix. 4); (2) to an accuser before the judgment-seat (Ps. cix. 6); and (3) to any opponent (II Sam. xix. 23 [A. V. 22]). The word is likewise used to denote an antagonist who puts obstacles in the way, as in Num. xxii. 32, where the angel of God is described as opposing Balaam in the guise of a satan or adversary; so that the concept of Satan as a distinct being was not then known. Such a view is found, however, in the prologue to the Book of Job, where Satan appears, together with other celestial beings or “sons of God,” before the Deity, replying to the inquiry of God as to whence he had come, with the words: “From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it” (Job i. 7). Both question and answer, as well as the dialogue which follows, characterize Satan as that member of the divine council who watches over human activity, but with the evil purpose of searching out men’s sins and appearing as their accuser. He is, therefore, the celestial prosecutor, who sees only iniquity; for he persists in his evil opinion of Job even after the man of Uz has passed successfully through his first trial by surrendering to the will of God, whereupon Satan demands another test through physical suffering (ib. ii. 3-5).
Please show your justification for the assertion I underlined?
 
So accusing someone of a sin they have actually done is an evil thing? Is it a crime to be a prosecuting attorney then?
 
I’m very into Apologetics yet the hardest topic that i have problems trying to get is Satan. His origin.

The popular belief of Christians concerning Satan is that he is a fallen archangel, who now is known as the king of evil. Thing is, where does this belief come from? I find no solid scriptural basis for it. Sure, the NT gives the information of this evil being known as Satan, however it seems very unsupported in the OT. And i think OT support is needed because it helps in seeing if some indications in the NT could be metaphorical, for some reason, Satan was entirely different in concept in the NT. In the OT,such as the book of Job, Daniel, Zacariah… Satan seemed more of an agent. Just like that of a lawyer, while God is the judge. Satan does mean the Accuser/obstacle after all. In the book of Job, he was part of the heavenly court. So this eliminates another popular belief of Satan being the serpent in the garden of Eden.

I’ve talked to a couple of intelligent Jewish people and according to them, none of them believe in the Satan that Christians do because of it being absent in scripture. They think Satan is a servant/angel of God and is used to test others in order to drive them towards God. Not the hell-king devil. They think it’s illogical to think Satan is a fallen angel because of the phrase “nothing stays dry in the ocean”; they believe Angels can not work on their own free will because they are surrounded by the holyness of God (which is like the ocean). Next, if Satan is the person who turns man evil then who turns angels evil? Clearly, someone had to tempt Satan and the rest of his squad to decide on their own free will to leave/rebel against God.

So why is it that his whole image is changed? Since when did Orthodox Jews develop this belief/dogma on Satan? Are the writings of the NT concerning Satan literal or just figurative or a translation error?
You’re correct in your appreciation of the Jewish perspective with regard to Satan. Judaism has a very difficult time believing there is an evil force in the Universe who is capable of even challenging G-d’s power. As you state, Satan is the accuser, designed to test our free will and love of G-d, according to Jewish teaching. However, even Satan would prefer we remain loyal to G-d, though he tries his best to make us stray. He is not evil, however, since he is executing the Will of G-d, just as all the other angels are. They really have little choice since, according to Judaism, none of them have free will. This is what distinguishes humans: we are the ONLY creatures who have free will, which means we struggle to be true to G-d’s Will, and in so doing we become closer to G-d. This also means we are beloved by G-d even more than His angels.

Why does this perspective of Satan all change with Christianity. Christians will say it is because of G-d’s progressive, incremental teaching or that the Hebrew Bible has been misinterpreted by the rabbinical sages. Jews will say that this duality between G-d and Satan is a necessary and foundational element for Christian theology.
 
So accusing someone of a sin they have actually done is an evil thing? Is it a crime to be a prosecuting attorney then?
You asked for the info, I gave it to you. Satan is messed up. There is no rational with an entity that in the end knows he will lose to God.
 
You asked for the info, I gave it to you. Satan is messed up. There is no rational with an entity that in the end knows he will lose to God.
Why bother quoting my post in a response to the post if you’re not going to answer the question you quoted?
 
Why bother quoting my post in a response to the post if you’re not going to answer the question you quoted?
I gave you the source, what more are you looking for. If I can help you I will but I’m not a demonologist.
 
400 years between the old and the new. More than enough time for the perceived non entity called Satan of the Hebrew scriptures to be fully manifested into what the Jews of the NT knew “him” to be.
Yes, i am aware of that however the jews today claim that there was never a belief on Satan as the king of evil-fallen angel. Why is it the only jews who knew about him are the jew audience in the NT? If there is no Jew today who believes this and claims there has never been any dogma.

You guys are missing the important part here. If this belief was developed then shouldn’t this still be part of Judaism dogma too?
 
Yes, i am aware of that however the jews today claim that there was never a belief on Satan as the king of evil-fallen angel. Why is it the only jews who knew about him are the jew audience in the NT? If there is no Jew today who believes this and claims there has never been any dogma.

You guys are missing the important part here. If this belief was developed then shouldn’t this still be part of Judaism dogma too?
Have you fully investigated if all Jews today do not have the Christian view of Satan . I have understood your point but I would have to get more knowledge of Reform, Orthodox and Kabalistic areas of Judaism.

Edit: I started to think about this and am wondering if we just assume the Jews of the NT view Satan as we Christians do. The “Satan from heaven fall” may be the real portrayal of Lucifer whereas the Jews understanding of Satan was wrong (and remains wrong) for generations. We have formulated our view of Satan based on Jesus’ words and other NT ideas. The Jews of the NT may have had the “evil king -accuser view” but were learning a new view taught by Jesus. This would be similar to the jews having a certain understanding of God (until the arrival of Jesus), then getting a new picture of him.

The Jews today remain unbelieveing in a “Jesus God” so they may have remained unbelieving or"trapped" in a OT view of Satan as well.
 
I know that in Judaism and the old Testament he is Ha Satan which means the adversary. In the book of Job we see that ha Satan is roaming back and forth from heavens and the earth and he was one of the sons of God ( Of the morning stars) but when we go to the new testament we see a different Satan because he was then thrown out of the heavens by Michael and he now roams the earth looking for souls… I know this for a fact from my past before my born-again experience .
 
I know that in Judaism and the old Testament he is Ha Satan which means the adversary. In the book of Job we see that ha Satan is roaming back and forth from heavens and the earth and he was one of the sons of God ( Of the morning stars) but when we go to the new testament we see a different Satan because he was then thrown out of the heavens by Michael and he now roams the earth looking for souls… I know this for a fact from my past before my born-again experience .
According to Jews, Satan is still an angel of God not an enemy.He works for God as an accuser of man at court while God is the judge. He is given tasks to test mans faith with Hardships. The jews don’t/never believed that he tempts man to sin so that they would join him in hell. They believe this from the ot where satan is not portrayed as evil as he was in the NT but a test giver by God. They believe that in terms of evil: killing, stealing, rape… it is all of man’s own doing and choices, not because of some evil entity speaking in their ears and deceiving them to do it.
 
SATAN:
Table of Contents
Code:
In the Bible.
In the Apocrypha.
In the New Testament.
In Talmud and Midrash.
His Functions.
In the Cabala.
In the Bible.

Term used in the Bible with the general connotation of “adversary,” being applied (1) to an enemy in war (I Kings v. 18 [A. V. 4]; xi. 14, 23, 25), from which use is developed the concept of a traitor in battle (I Sam. xxix. 4); (2) to an accuser before the judgment-seat (Ps. cix. 6); and (3) to any opponent (II Sam. xix. 23 [A. V. 22]). The word is likewise used to denote an antagonist who puts obstacles in the way, as in Num. xxii. 32, where the angel of God is described as opposing Balaam in the guise of a satan or adversary; so that the concept of Satan as a distinct being was not then known. Such a view is found, however, in the prologue to the Book of Job, where Satan appears, together with other celestial beings or “sons of God,” before the Deity, replying to the inquiry of God as to whence he had come, with the words: “From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it” (Job i. 7). Both question and answer, as well as the dialogue which follows, characterize Satan as that member of the divine council who watches over human activity, but with the evil purpose of searching out men’s sins and appearing as their accuser. He is, therefore, the celestial prosecutor, who sees only iniquity; for he persists in his evil opinion of Job even after the man of Uz has passed successfully through his first trial by surrendering to the will of God, whereupon Satan demands another test through physical suffering (ib. ii. 3-5).
Where in the talmud? You see, those OT verses you gave are not interprited by the jews as an entity of evil but an agent of God whose job is to cause obstacles on mans lives so that they would grow.
 
Where in the talmud? You see, those OT verses you gave are not interprited by the jews as an entity of evil but an agent of God whose job is to cause obstacles on mans lives so that they would grow.
Did you read post 27 I wrote. In addition the Jewish commentary that i provided to you states that although Satan was part of the divine council, he had evil intent. That is an “entity of evil”.
 
Did you read post 27 I wrote. In addition the Jewish commentary that i provided to you states that although Satan was part of the divine council, he had evil intent. That is an “entity of evil”.
Yes. I did. But evil intent is an assumption because based on scripture, it is as if he was assigned in his role as the persecutor. The jews believe that Satan is still an angel who only tests man under god’s orders in order to bring out and prove their faith.
 
I’m very into Apologetics yet the hardest topic that i have problems trying to get is Satan. His origin…?
The History channel has an excellent synopsis of how the idea of satan was developed along with the emergence of monotheism. There is also a very useful idea regarding satan as symbolic of the usual unawakended state, or subject/object perceptive state of the human mind before the last four stages of spiritual development.
 
Yes. I did. But evil intent is an assumption because based on scripture, it is as if he was assigned in his role as the persecutor. The jews believe that Satan is still an angel who only tests man under god’s orders in order to bring out and prove their faith.
You raised a good issue to discuss. Personally, as I already expressed to you, I believe that the Hebrew view of Satan is as skewed as the Hebrew view of the Chrisian God. Their views have not evolved but the Christian view has.

I still feel the Jews of the OT were learning about the true nature of Satan from Christ. Jesus was a Rabbi and taught. Remember he taught as one having authority. That is why they may not have acted “surprised” at the different description of Satan and accepted it.
 
You raised a good issue to discuss. Personally, as I already expressed to you, I believe that the Hebrew view of Satan is as skewed as the Hebrew view of the Chrisian God. Their views have not evolved but the Christian view has.

I still feel the Jews of the OT were learning about the true nature of Satan from Christ. Jesus was a Rabbi and taught. Remember he taught as one having authority. That is why they may not have acted “surprised” at the different description of Satan and accepted it.
Yes, i understand that but the problem is that when Jesus talked about Satan, we see in the gospels that his audience knew who he was. So that causes problems with your belief that the Jews never evolved because during Jesus’ time the gospel makes it look that Satan was common knowledge.
 
Yes, i understand that but the problem is that when Jesus talked about Satan, we see in the gospels that his audience knew who he was. So that causes problems with your belief that the Jews never evolved because during Jesus’ time the gospel makes it look that Satan was common knowledge.
The problem is using non-Jewish sources to learn about Judaism. I certainly would not turn to an Islamic source to learn about Christianity. Likewise, we should not be surprised by the problematics of turning to a Catholic source to learn about the concept of “Satan” in Judaism.

In monotheistic Judaism there can be no powerful free willed non human entitities as in the Christian concept of the Devil. see:
whatjewsbelieve.org/explanation7.html

In Judaism all people are born innocent with two basic inclinations ( the “bad” inclination is one of self indulgence the “good” inclination is one of care for your fellow man). God in the creation stated repeatedly “it is good”. God did not make evil, it comes about by the free choice between our inclinations. The bad inclination of self indulgence, of disregard for others, can lead to evil. However, it is not evil in itself. The bad inclination allows a person to marry, to raise children. Carrying only for others, the good inclination, would not allow this. So we require a balance. Our guide post for this balance is through God’s commandments (for the Gentile the seven Noahide commandments). The rule for Adam and Eve to not eat of the fruit from a certain tree was a commandment. Adam and Eve both had free choice to follow or not follow this commandment.

There is no Devil in Judaism in the Catholic context. Catholics view the Devil as an uncontrolled adversary against God. However, God created all things and all things which were created are good. Satan in Judaism is totally under God’s control and is merely carrying out God’s will.
 
Yes, i understand that but the problem is that when Jesus talked about Satan, we see in the gospels that his audience knew who he was. So that causes problems with your belief that the Jews never evolved because during Jesus’ time the gospel makes it look that Satan was common knowledge.
Your concern (and mine) may lie in our view that the Gospel “makes it look like” Satan was common knowledge. Do we mean that the apostles or others didn’t say, “who is this Satan guy?” Or something to that effect. I want to say I clearly hear all of your points (as it doesn’t seem all do). But maybe the NT is simply not concerned with the apparently differing views of Satan from old to new.
I have to admit that doesn’t sound 100% right though. As of this point I agree with you that this issue is not solved. You have given me something to really dig into. If you get any more info that is explanatory on the subject you can PM me. Thanks.
 
khuldar said:
I’m interested to hear your point of view. (regardless of whether I agree or not) However I would ask that you back up your opinions with historical evidence that I & others can ponder to help us better learn and understand…

But as to your OP the increasingly secular world we live in is gradually changing/has changed the perception of Satan (at least in New Zealand where I live)

As to if there is a translation error that depends on who has done the translation and what agenda (if any) there is behind it. Personally speaking I believe that the writings in the NT regarding Satan are real i.e.for example the temptation of Jesus in Luke 4:1-13 & not figurative as Jesus came & died for us so that Sin/Satan would hold no power over us.

That being said the Catechism of the Catholic Church says the following:

391 Behind the disobedient choice of our first parents lurks a seductive voice, opposed to God, which makes them fall into death out of envy. Scripture and the Church’s Tradition see in this being a fallen angel, called “Satan” or the “devil”. The Church teaches that Satan was at first a good angel, made by God: "The devil and the other demons were indeed created naturally good by God, but they became evil by their own doing.

392 Scripture speaks of a sin of these angels. This “fall” consists in the free choice of these created spirits, who radically and irrevocably rejected God and his reign. We find a reflection of that rebellion in the tempter’s words to our first parents: “You will be like God.” The devil “has sinned from the beginning”; he is “a liar and the father of lies”

Food for thought…
I’m saying that it is possible that Satan is actually metaphorical. I’m not saying my words 100% right but what i am thinking is that there is no great 2nd entity, no actual “god/leader” of evil. Because it is problematic in my eyes to believe the popular belief of Satan. Satan’s existence (as the evil living being) gives logical problems, scriptual, and even academical problems to me. Why would Satan be created if God knew what would happen? Why is it that we have no source from the Jews (from BC to now) of them believing in the same satan we do?

Look at this logic. We all say that Man commits sin due to falling for the temptation of Satan. But how did Satan sin? Who tempted him and the other angels? How can evil be present in heaven and yet it would still be considered heaven? When Man brought Sin into the world, this caused what we have as present yet we additionally see sin being brought to heaven (because Satan was an angel) so why hasn’t that been contaminated just like the world when sin was brought into it. Gradually the first sin ever should have been in heaven if so Satan and his company where sent down.

Maybe the “fell like lightning from heaven” is just figurative and not a description of an angel being cast down due to sin. Satan being a symbol for our animalistic minds where our humanity is ignored for our own gratification and has the potential to corrupt us. Or in short, the negative feelings/emotions inside of us.
 
I’m saying that it is possible that Satan is actually metaphorical. I’m not saying my words 100% right but what i am thinking is that there is no great 2nd entity, no actual “god/leader” of evil. Because it is problematic in my eyes to believe the popular belief of Satan. Satan’s existence (as the evil living being) gives logical problems, scriptual, and even academical problems to me. Why would Satan be created if God knew what would happen? Why is it that we have no source from the Jews (from BC to now) of them believing in the same satan we do?

Look at this logic. We all say that Man commits sin due to falling for the temptation of Satan. But how did Satan sin? Who tempted him and the other angels? How can evil be present in heaven and yet it would still be considered heaven? When Man brought Sin into the world, this caused what we have as present yet we additionally see sin being brought to heaven (because Satan was an angel) so why hasn’t that been contaminated just like the world when sin was brought into it. Gradually the first sin ever should have been in heaven if so Satan and his company where sent down.

Maybe the “fell like lightning from heaven” is just figurative and not a description of an angel being cast down due to sin. Satan being a symbol for our animalistic minds where our humanity is ignored for our own gratification and has the potential to corrupt us. Or in short, the negative feelings/emotions inside of us.
What I get from reading your words is that you think Satan / The Devil as we today know him is a combined figment of our collective imaginations.

Would this be a correct interpretation?
 
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