The Church as anti-Christ

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sthudium

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A friend of mine explained that the Church is the anti-Christ because of the priests, who supposedly usurp the power of Jesus, by supposedly placing themselves between Christ and the laity. I suspect this issue has been addressed over the centuries, but am ignorant.

What should have been my response?
 
You could explain to your friend that Christ sent the Apostles and their successors into the world to establish the His Kingdom on Earth and to act in His place. (Luke 10:16-19; Matthew 28:16-20; Luke 22:19; John 20:23; Matthew 16:19, 18:18)

Why exactly does he believe that priests “usurp” the power of Jesus? Maybe knowing why and what his faith background is would help better.
 
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I would advise you to:
  1. Get a copy of Catholicism for Dummies - which is a great basic catechism that you can easily read and digest.
  2. Ask your friend to show you where Jesus taught “bible alone” or bible anything. He did not.
  3. Ask your friend to read 1 John 4:1-4 and describe how, when and where the Catholic Church has ever denied that Christ has come in the Flesh. Hint: it has not.
Sadly, your friend has been taught by those who seem to hate more than they love.
 
My friend is an Evangelical, you know, the me-and-Jesus believer. For example, he thinks priests take the role of Jesus when they hear confession.

I guess I am looking for a succinct description of the roles of priests, vis. Jesus’ authority,

Thanks. BTW, I’m in RCIA and so just a baby in the faith tradition.
 
sthudium said:
My friend is an Evangelical, you know, the me-and-Jesus believer. For example, he thinks priests take the role of Jesus when they hear confession.

I guess I am looking for a succinct description of the roles of priests, vis. Jesus’ authority,

Thanks. BTW, I’m in RCIA and so just a baby in the faith tradition.
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@Todd_Easton beat me to the punch. You’ll find a nice a nice defense of the priesthood there. This CA article, Did Jesus Give Priests to the Church? is also a good source.
 
sthudium said:
A friend of mine explained that the Church is the anti-Christ because of the priests, who supposedly usurp the power of Jesus, by supposedly placing themselves between Christ and the laity. I suspect this issue has been addressed over the centuries, but am ignorant.

What should have been my response?
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Tell them I went to confession, to my Priest, last night, and I’ve never felt closer to Christ. 😉

Also…

Bishop Polycarp of Smyrna (d. cir. A.D. 156) said in his Letter to the Philippians, “Everyone who does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is an antichrist.”

Can’t really recall a Priest ever saying that Christ didn’t come in the flesh.

Finally, ask them if they mean putting themselves between Christ and the laity the way Paul did…
1 Corinthians 4:14-15Fatherly Admonition
14 I do not write this to make you ashamed, but to admonish you as my beloved children. 15 For though you have countless guides in Christ, you do not have many fathers. For I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel.
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St. Paul tells us here that he is a father because he is a Bishop/Priest because when he baptizes them they become his spiritual children.
Ephesians 3:14-15
14 For this cause I bow my knees to the Father (Patera) of our Lord Jesus Christ,
15 Of whom all paternity (patria) in heaven and earth is named,
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St. Paul here gives thanks to the Father in heaven. Patera meaning to the Father.

From whom all paternity/fatherhood (patria) is named. Which means gets its authority.

Jesus tells us in Matthew 23:9 that true fatherhood participates in the Fatherhood of God. And it is only through God that this fatherhood has any authority.

A priest is a father because he participates, like St. Paul, through a sacrament. So it is OK to use the term father as long as you are not worshiping this person or usurping the Fatherhood of God. We don’t worship our priests. If he says we do ask him to show you in the Bible were God gave him the power to know what is in your heart.

Hope this helps

God Bless
 
The short answer is that we have Priests because that’s the way God set it up, and we Catholics do things the way God set them up.

The long answer has been provided in answers/links above. Here’s another one (geared toward confession, but based upon the same subject of Priests):


And in case you get hit with “The Bible says to call no man father, but Catholics call Priests (and Dad’s and Patriarch’s…] “Father”!”

 
I am not sure how one can usurp a position which has been granted to them in the first place. Evangelicals take great pride in their pastors, they have some very real celebrities which they value very highly, they’ve read their books watched their tv shows. They are super stars. It is easy to fall into that trap, since Jesus Christ seems so far away, and we are almost like abandoned children remembering a fleeting moment 2000 years ago where we could touch heaven, and heaven truly touched earth.

As a Catholic I feel closer to Jesus Christ than what I did as an Evangelical, where I was searching and searching in every possible place I could (except the Catholic Church of course) for a glimpse of the person of Christ.

I would much rather have a priest in persona than be my own priest.
 
Jesus has established the Catholic Church which is Holy,Jesus himself has instituted the Priesthood

Matthew 19:12 For there are eunuchs, who were born so from their mother’s womb: and there are eunuchs, who were made so by men: and there are eunuchs, who have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven. He that can take, let him take it.

Mather 16:16-18 16 Simon Peter answered and said: Thou art Christ, the Son of the living God.

17 And Jesus answering, said to him: Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jona: because flesh and blood hath not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in heaven.

18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
 
sthudium said:
. For example, he thinks priests take the role of Jesus when they hear confession.
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Well, he’s right.

Priests DO take the role of Jesus in Confession.

We don’t confess our sins to Father x in the confessional - we’re confessing to Jesus. The priest sits there in the person of Christ.
 
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With regard to the priest forgiving sins in the place of Jesus, see John 20:21-23
Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you.” And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the holy Spirit. Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained.”
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Notice, Jesus specifically puts the Apostles in his place (“as the Father has sent me, so I send you”) and explicitly gives them the power to forgive sins (or to hold back forgiveness, where appropriate).
 
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The intermediary role played by Catholic priests (presbuterous) in the forgiveness of sins is touched upon in the Epistle of James, where he discusses the sacrament of the Anointing of the Sick:
Is any among you sick? Let him call for the elders (presbuterous) of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord; and the prayer of faith will save the sick man, and the Lord will raise him up; and if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven. (James 5:14-15)
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Notice the sick Christian is not told to just pray directly to God for healing and forgiveness of his sins but to call for the priests of the Church and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord.
 
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sthudium said:
A friend of mine explained that the Church is the anti-Christ because of the priests, who supposedly usurp the power of Jesus, by supposedly placing themselves between Christ and the laity. I suspect this issue has been addressed over the centuries, but am ignorant.

What should have been my response?
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Tell them that Christ was incarnated as a first century Jewish man and was fully immersed in the faith of that people. Christ is not “Spirit-dude”.
Nor does he throw out temple Judaism as so many would like to assert.

Read Brant Pitre “Jesus and the Jewish Roots of the Eucharist”.
 
Spyridon said:
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sthudium:
. For example, he thinks priests take the role of Jesus when they hear confession.
Click to expand...
Well, he’s right.

Priests DO take the role of Jesus in Confession.

We don’t confess our sins to Father x in the confessional - we’re confessing to Jesus. The priest sits there in the person of Christ.
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Yes.
Christ could have stayed here without going to the cross. We could all be in line right now to confess our sins directly to Jesus. But he was killed for our sins.
And he passed on his ministry to others.
in persona Christi
 
Hi sthudium,

You have already received some terrific advice and answers so I won’t add anything more except to give you some thoughts on taking a different tact with your friend. I’ve had much experience in dealing with evangelicals as I very nearly left the Catholic Church after speaking to one over a period of time (I was ignorant of my faith and was easily swayed by his arguments).

In my experience your friend won’t stop at this one topic. After this one he will move to Mary, Purgatory, Bible vs Church authority, etc. You will have to defend multiple attack angles and it can be overwhelming as your friend will use Bible quotes to back up his contentions and likewise you will have to defend using Bible quotes (sometimes the same ones your friend uses!) but with an entirely different interpretation. And that is the rub…I call it the “my interpretation is better than yours” type debate. I’ve had many of these and they rarely get anywhere and due to my unfortunate aggressive personality the conversation tends to get heated. I now take a different tact by asking a simple question for most attacks of the Catholic faith.

I tell/ask them, “since Jesus’ truth never changes the truth yesterday is the truth today so if what you say about priests (in this case) is really the truth then there must be evidence of it being the truth “yesterday”. So who believed in your version of the truth in say 800 A.D. or earlier?” Let them struggle with that question or demean its importance, but don’t let your friend off the hook. Tell him/her that you have evidence of the Church actually formally believing in the Eucharist (which requires a valid priesthood) per the very first church council documentation. Express empathy for their position, but point out that without proof their belief is just opinion…whereas your belief is backed up by what the Church actually believed.

Your friend will likely try to invalidate “Catholic” councils, but point out to him that early councils represented the Christian Church as the term “catholic” was used with a small “c” to denote that it was a universal church. Therefore, at that time it wasn’t the Catholic Church as much as it was the single universal Christian Church. No other group even claimed to be the universal apostolic church. If you would like greater detail please let me know.

I use this type of logic for most attacks on the Catholic faith so that I don’t have to remember all of the biblical quotes necessary to defend all of the attack angles. It’s just a different way to defend that works for me, but may not for others. I look at it similar to defending yourself…some like boxing, others wrestling, karate, etc. You need to find what works best for you.

Anyway, I hope this helps and if not you have a lot of good information given by others to work from!! God Bless!

-Ernie-
 
Thanks, all, for your very illuminating responses. I think the question I have for my friend is, “What is the purpose of the church?” “Is it merely for good people to get together to celebrate their collective goodness and maybe support evangelization/”
 
FWIW, you might want to be careful about your use of the word church with evangelicals. For your friend church will likely be defined as all believers in Christ or some variant and you’ll go down yet another “my interpretation…” debate. For me, when I talk about church with evangelicals I always ask it as it relates to the church that Jesus describes in MT 16:18. Where is the Church that Jesus built and how can you validate that He kept His promise to protect it?

The Catholic Church is the only Christian group that can validate and prove Jesus kept His promise as the beliefs of the early Church are the beliefs of the Catholic Church today (as expected since Jesus promised protection). All forms of Protestantism have no ability to prove an unbroken chain of beliefs that could prove Jesus kept His promise…unless the start of that chain is in the 15th or 16th century. The key is to get them to realize that truth applies not only to people today, but of all people from 33 A.D. on. The hard truth for them is that many of their beliefs would have had them labeled a heretic up until the start of their chain…a hard pill to swallow so be kind and respectful!

-Ernie-
 
sthudium said:
I think the question I have for my friend is, “What is the purpose of the church?”
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Great question.
There is a huge gap between God and the laity. One reason is because we are sinners. God bridges this gap by working through the holy priests He has given to us.

2 Corinthians 5:20
“So we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We beseech you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.”

See how the Church carries on the mission of Christ through

Apostolic Succession.
http://www.defendingthebride.com/ch/apostolic_succession.html

Hope this helps,
John
 
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