The Church doesn't oppose racism much.

[LaramieHirsch]

If you’re going to go that route, Laramie, you might get some use out of the section of the CCC dealing with “The Covenant with Noah.”…

scborromeo.org/ccc/p1s1c2a1.htm

Ooooo, very nice! This is what I’m talkin’ about! Thanks so much! Very instructive. I’ll take more, if ya got it.

Fascinating. Babel explained.

 

[ringil]

Race is a social construction.

The concept of “race” wasn’t even thought about until the 18th. c. and further codified into the myth of the “Great Races” ala. Meyers Konversations-Lexikon.

The best thing we can do is think of people as people. Honor difference, and honor love between people whenever it is found.

 

[UntimelyGiggles]

Yes, that’s right. You heard me.

The Catholic Church of Jesus Christ does not oppose racism…much.

But it does…some.

The problem is, I don’t know where.

I’m looking for official infallible pronouncements on the subject of racism, and race-mixing in particular.

Catechism, Bible–you name it. I’m looking for official opposition to racism and miscegenation laws. I’ve combed the internet a bit in the last few days, and was taken aback that there’s not too many official discussions about it. Sure, there may have been priests here and there who worked to fight racism. But what about official stances of the Church Herself?

I have found that most of the logic on racism has to be deducted with reason after doing a bit of broad reading. There’s not one single commandment or paragraph in the Catechism that speaks out against it. At least, I don’t think there is.

But if there is, where? I’m looking.

You’re funny. Really. But, what more evidence do you want from the church when you have the best examples? I know some people have mentioned the saints of different descent, but I do think Pope John Paul is also a really good example of this. I honestly don’t think you need evidence in writing even when actions can portray what Jesus really intend for us – and that’s to love one another as He himself loves us.

Just a thought.

 

[LaramieHirsch]

You’re funny. Really. But, what more evidence do you want from the church when you have the best examples? I know some people have mentioned the saints of different descent, but I do think Pope John Paul is also a really good example of this. I honestly don’t think you need evidence in writing even when actions can portray what Jesus really intend for us – and that’s to love one another as He himself loves us.

Just a thought.

I disagree with nothing you’ve said.

I am merely on a quest for original source material.

And if folks want to talk about these issues I’ve discussed, that’s fine too, as this thread has a broad title.

 

[JerryZ]

Yes, that’s right. You heard me.

The Catholic Church of Jesus Christ does not oppose racism…much.

But it does…some.

The problem is, I don’t know where.

I’m looking for official infallible pronouncements on the subject of racism, and race-mixing in particular.

Catechism, Bible–you name it. I’m looking for official opposition to racism and miscegenation laws. I’ve combed the internet a bit in the last few days, and was taken aback that there’s not too many official discussions about it. Sure, there may have been priests here and there who worked to fight racism. But what about official stances of the Church Herself?

I have found that most of the logic on racism has to be deducted with reason after doing a bit of broad reading. There’s not one single commandment or paragraph in the Catechism that speaks out against it. At least, I don’t think there is.

But if there is, where? I’m looking.

Of course if you live in a predominantly white race country and a minority are blacks that also happen to be descendats of slaves there might be some prejudice but lets go back to the roots of Catholicism. The middle east has been a melting pot where races have been coming and going for millenia.
The jews actually have all shades when it comes to skin colour. What skin color do you think the Queen of Shaba had? Hint! BLACK

Also the Catholic Church following the tradition set forth by the Apostles has gone on to evangelize the African continent which she sees as a great price for herself.
I doubt there will be any Dogma stating what to any Catholic should be self evident.

Love your neighbor as yourself (What? Do you need to qualify what constitutes neighbor?)
Ah right! I remember someone even went as far as have a trial to determine if the black race was human.

Also the protestants not so long ago debated if the black people actually possesed a soul!

Shocking no?

 

[UntimelyGiggles]

Also the protestants not so long ago debated if the black people actually possesed a soul!

Shocking no?

When was this!? Better yet, where was I… :whacky:

 

[bzkoss236]

Something that I don’t really think has been asked yet, but why, LaramieHirsch, are you looking for source material on this subject? Out of curiosity. IMHO, what the CCC says on human dignity covers it all, even those specific questions you mentioned before. So aside from everyone else’s statements on why they too think there isn’t need of anything else, and your views on why there should be, why are you asking for sources? What brought about this search? If I may ask.

 

[Elisabethelisa]

The native Algerian population is not now, nor was it at the time of Augustine, what we would call “black,” by which is commonly understood the native peoples of sub-Saharan Africa. That there may happen to be blacks born in Algeria, being numerically insignificant, does not by itself change the general conception of the Algerian people, nor does it give us any more reason to suspect that Augustine was black than the fact that a black person was at any time born in France gives reason to suspect that Charlemagne was black. On the other hand, what we know about Augustine’s family gives us very good reason to suspect that Augustine was not black.

I wasn’t talking about Saint Augustin but in general. Because the assumption that Algerians are white is false. Wether it was back in the day or now. They come in all form and shade. But I realise the word black does not mean the same thing depending on where people live or they from. Anyway.

 

[Elisabethelisa]

JerryZ Of course if you live in a predominantly white race country and a minority are blacks that also happen to be descendats of slaves there might be some prejudice

I think the problem is some people won’t let it go. No matter their skin color. It’s like every time there is a problem with a black and white person the racist card, slavery card …etc is played on both sides. Weither it’s in France or America. But if I’m correct the US government did apologise for that. Same as in France. But still people would keep the grudge and keep coming up with this like they have nothing else to do wich is tiring.
That’s why I don’t personally belong to any black something movement because it’s always a reminder that there should be a difference between people when there shouldn’t.
The race issue is and has always been a thing created by Man. Genetically there is no inferiority or superiority what’s so ever. Some might say some diseases are only for black, for Asian, for white wich is true … But at the end of the day if you need blood transfusion one day we don’t look up to know who’s body its coming from but only if the blood type is the same and it will be fine no matter the skin color of the person.

 

[LaramieHirsch]

Something that I don’t really think has been asked yet, but why, LaramieHirsch, are you looking for source material on this subject? Out of curiosity.

bzkoss236, your question *has *been asked previously. Here are my previous answers to that question:

Catechism, Bible–you name it. I’m looking for official opposition to racism and miscegenation laws…

I’ve spent my time lately arguing against racial supremacy.…

I’ve also spent the last month defending the right to choose a mixed-race union.…

You can’t get any more solid than having original source material from the Catholic Church (when talking with Catholics)…

I just wanted as much source material as I could get, because I’m a terrible apologist, truth be told…

…I am merely on a quest for original source material.

 

[bzkoss236]

bzkoss236, your question *has *been asked previously. Here are my previous answers to that question:

I apologize for missing it. Have you mentioned with whom you are arguing? Are they Catholic? (if not it would make sense why you are asking)

 

[LaramieHirsch]

I apologize for missing it. Have you mentioned with whom you are arguing? Are they Catholic? (if not it would make sense why you are asking)

No prob.

Yes, I’ve actually been arguing with Catholics. Hence, the need for Catholic material on the matter.

Faithless folks just wouldn’t “get” all of the material I’ve been asking for.

 

[ringil]

No prob.

Yes, I’ve actually been arguing with Catholics. Hence, the need for Catholic material on the matter.

Faithless folks just wouldn’t “get” all of the material I’ve been asking for.

You might want to stay away from the culture wars site. There is some really weird stuff over there.

One of the frequent writers believes in a geocentric universe.

And it is absolutely rife with jewish conspiracy theory stuff. It’s pretty fringe.

 

[LaramieHirsch]

You might want to stay away from the culture wars site. There is some really weird stuff over there.

One of the frequent writers believes in a geocentric universe.

And it is absolutely rife with jewish conspiracy theory stuff. It’s pretty fringe.

Meh. I’ve enjoyed it thus far. But let’s not roam off topic, here.

I wouldn’t mind you emailing me your thoughts about those two points, though.

 

[Genesis315]

Here’s a good, short, definitive encyclical from the 1500s. In it, Pope Paul III calls those who say the natives of the new world are to be treated like bumb brutes, and not like men, are satellites of Satan. He also forbids anyone to deprive them of their liberty.

papalencyclicals.net/Paul03/p3subli.htm

 

[hannajomar]

If you are looking for written sources, how about Matthew 28: 19-20

Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you;

I haven’t read this whole thread. But I write as a white Catholic who is married to a black Catholic. We attend a parish with at least 20 native languages represented, and Masses held in two languages. Our diocese holds Masses in more languages than that. Sitting in the pews, I have seen every hair color/texture, eye color, eye structure, skin color, body type I can imagine. I’ve seen people come to Mass in western suits, as well as in African dresses with elaborate headpieces.

 

[QNDNNDQDCE]

I wasn’t talking about Saint Augustin but in general. Because the assumption that Algerians are white is false. Wether it was back in the day or now. They come in all form and shade. But I realise the word black does not mean the same thing depending on where people live or they from. Anyway.

This is a really silly conversation. “Algerians” as far as it designates an ethnicity, designates a people who are not black.

 

[4Squarebaby]

This is a really silly conversation. “Algerians” as far as it designates an ethnicity, designates a people who are not black.

However the post said “not white”. Race is political and people who Americans see as “white” are seen as “other” in most of Europe. Of course when an African American says Black he means someone with mostly noticeable sub Saharan West, Central, darker skin toned Northeast Africans and Southern African features , or known parentage of someone who can trace heritage there.

 

[Robert_in_SD]

Yes, that’s right. You heard me.

The Catholic Church of Jesus Christ does not oppose racism…much.

But it does…some.

The problem is, I don’t know where.

I’m looking for official infallible pronouncements on the subject of racism, and race-mixing in particular.

Catechism, Bible–you name it. I’m looking for official opposition to racism and miscegenation laws. I’ve combed the internet a bit in the last few days, and was taken aback that there’s not too many official discussions about it. Sure, there may have been priests here and there who worked to fight racism. But what about official stances of the Church Herself?

I have found that most of the logic on racism has to be deducted with reason after doing a bit of broad reading. There’s not one single commandment or paragraph in the Catechism that speaks out against it. At least, I don’t think there is.

But if there is, where? I’m looking.

Start with the dogmatic statement that the Church is “catholic” … universal, and all-inclusive. If you think the Church is racist, against which race do you believe it has taught intolerance, and at what times? It seems to me that from the beginning, the Church has been inclusive and distinctly NOT racist.

[12] For just as the body is one and has many members, and all the members of the body, though many, are one body, so it is with Christ.
[13] For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body – Jews or Greeks, slaves or free – and all were made to drink of one Spirit. (1 Cor. 12: 12-13)

[27] For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
[28] There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
[29] And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise. (Gal. 3: 27-29)

[11] Here there cannot be Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scyth’ian, slave, free man, but Christ is all, and in all.
[12] Put on then, as God’s chosen ones, holy and beloved, compassion, kindness, lowliness, meekness, and patience,
[13] forbearing one another and, if one has a complaint against another, forgiving each other; as the Lord has forgiven you, so you also must forgive.
[14] And above all these put on love, which binds everything together in perfect harmony. (Col. 3: 11-14)

The idea of the universal Church, from the beginning, was that it was ONE Church for all, in Christ. Logically speaking, racism is entirely inconsistent with a universal Church.

Peace,
Robert

 

[Robert_in_SD]

I think the Church despises racism as much as any other evil. But here is something interesting. I remember after Obamacare was going to either pass or fail, there were large Prayer-Type gatherings around the Nation, at City Halls and Governement Bulidings, the channel EWTN was HUGE on using their air time to ensure that as many folks went to these as possible. I noticed one thing about the footage and photos I saw of the gatherings, nation wide. In all states, the audiences and protesters that showed up look mostly white to me. Any thoughts on this?

I think you may be referring to the protests against the HHS mandate compelling all employers, including Catholic-owned businesses and institutions, to pay for abortion, sterilization, and artificial contraception for employees under the Affordable Care Act (“Obamacare”). Perhaps the racial divide–assuming your interpretation of the data is correct–is more reflective of the political divide in America, than it is a true reflection of the face of the Church, or it’s teaching on the evils of racism? There is no Catholic mandate or doctrine compelling Catholics to oppose a national healthcare system.

Peace,
Robert