The church finally says ABC is ok!! What would you all think of that??

[joclucsylv]

First of all, I am a world champion Googler.

When my kids hit school age, I was asked to be a catechist for our parish. The more I read, even in the Kindergarten text, the more I realized how many holes there were in my Catholic education. I was an army brat so went to some Catholic schools and some public schools - a real mix of good and bad Catholic formation. So, I set out to systematically learn all I could to be confident standing in front of a class of kids and trying to teach them about the faith. It was just pride - I had to know more than the kids.

In our diocese, catechists are supposed to go through formal certification training. I say “supposed to” because it is technically required but they make it very hard for people to attend. However, after getting laid off from my job and having some time to spare, I put the 18 months in and got certified. One of the classes was moral theology and another was Church Doctrine. Not only the content of the classes but also the bibliographies of the material have been my main sources.

I may sin but I can almost guarantee I won’t be invincibly ignorant as long as I have my PC.

I feel like I have a calling. I want to study theology more, but I am not sure what I would do with it. It would be for self knowledge for sure, but above that I don’t know what I would do with it. I would need to start with kindergarden text books, as you can see lol!! So much of what is said on this board goes completely OVER my head. I am picking up here and there. I really have a hunger to know more. My parish priest amazes me. He is so well educated about everything. ( I suppose all of them are) I wish I could have half the knowledge he has. I wish osmosis would work!

 

[sw85]

I feel like I have a calling. I want to study theology more, but I am not sure what I would do with it. It would be for self knowledge for sure, but above that I don’t know what I would do with it. I would need to start with kindergarden text books, as you can see lol!! So much of what is said on this board goes completely OVER my head. I am picking up here and there. I really have a hunger to know more. My parish priest amazes me. He is so well educated about everything. ( I suppose all of them are) I wish I could have half the knowledge he has. I wish osmosis would work!

Theology is useful for discerning what’s good and what’s not even where Church teachings are fuzzy or absent. If nothing else, it’ll give you a good idea where the Church is coming from.

A good place to begin (I may have recommended this to you before, I’m not sure) is Edward Feser’s “The Last Superstition.” He’s a great writer, very intelligent and very entertaining, and as a Catholic philosopher, he really knows his stuff.

 

[Debora123]

Debora, you are more well read than me cause you went to Catholic school. Are you reading that statement how I am reading it. That they should use condoms?? Tell me how you read it because I can relate to you.

Apparently this is word per word what he said:

[Interviewer’s question:] Are you saying, then, that the Catholic Church is actually not opposed in principle to the use of condoms?

She of course does not regard it as a real or moral solution, but, in this or that case, there can be nonetheless, in the intention of reducing the risk of infection, a first step in a movement toward a different way, a more human way, of living sexuality.

I am seeing it exactly as it is being written. To me, the above statement sounds contradictory to condoms being intrinsically evil. Just sayin.

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

I feel like I have a calling. I want to study theology more, but I am not sure what I would do with it. It would be for self knowledge for sure, but above that I don’t know what I would do with it. I would need to start with kindergarden text books, as you can see lol!! So much of what is said on this board goes completely OVER my head. I am picking up here and there. I really have a hunger to know more. My parish priest amazes me. He is so well educated about everything. ( I suppose all of them are) I wish I could have half the knowledge he has. I wish osmosis would work!

Actually, the Catechism is a good start and the Compendium of the Catechism. Maybe the Compendium first, it’s shorter read

Also if you have EWTN, Fr. Mitch Pacwa has a show on tuesday evenings called “Threshold of Hope” he discusses encyclicals of John Paul II.

 

[paddy22]

Apparently this is word per word what he said:

I am seeing it exactly as it is being written. To me, the above statement sounds contradictory to condoms being intrinsically evil. Just sayin.

You’ve got to try pretty hard to turn his words around to justify the morality of condom use. What about the first part of his response: ‘She of course does not regard it as a real or moral solution…’ What does that mean to you?

 

[LaSainte]

This is the important part:

2035 The supreme degree of participation in the authority of Christ is ensured by the charism of infallibility. This infallibility extends as far as does the deposit of divine Revelation; it also extends to all those elements of doctrine, including morals,

without which the saving truths of the faith cannot be preserved, explained, or observed.77

Many theologians do not believe that this doctrine CAN be taunt infallibly because the preservation, explanation and observation of the faith doesn’t depend on it, and it is not really a matter of divine revelation.

Also I didn’t mean to say that we don’t have to follow this teaching, only that it’s infallibiliy is questionable at best and needs to be clarified in a definitive statement by the pope if we are ever going to lay the issue to rest.

 

[Debora123]

Ahha Deb. You see it as I. What year did the church ok NFP??

Using periodic abstinence to avoid/postpone pregnancy existed at least since the time of St Augustine in the 300’s AD. We know this because he makes reference to it in the year 388. It possibly could have existed since before Christ, for all we know.

However, the Church didn’t OK this method of avoiding/postponing pregnancy until the year 1853.

 

[Debora123]

there’s a lot to be said about the ‘good old days’ when a man wouldn’t think of proposing to a woman till he was able to financially support her and their children.

 

[Bookcat]

(Posted last night)

Lets speak of some fictional persons…but use a different moral issue (though still a grave matter like Contraception) Sometimes this helps …and though they are fictional…and hopefully more far fetched then real (though given our world it is possible) …I hope they will help.

Leo and Sally are married…they are engaged in adultery with others…and are very unhappy. They have a conversion …and repent of their deeds and set out to follow Christ faithfully and to be faithful to each other. The find this really also helps their marriage. And they find that they have new life in him here…and look forward to being with him…happy they are not longer living in a way that would send them to hell but are following he who is life. Many like couples experience the same and objectively they are doing good.

Sam and Sue are married. Their marriage is troubled. They are always fighting about Sam’s unhappiness about Sue not want sexual relations so often. They are terribly unhappy. Sam prays about it…and decides that God will understand if he finds a companion on the side for the sake of his family…heck men have done so in all ages. Sam decides to have an affair on the side. The fighting practically goes away entirely…the affair continues for years and years…and they report their marriage is now happy. Sam in a discussion with a friend with similar problems…suggests he get a girl on the side…for this has saved their marriage and they are now happy…and he is not bothered by his conscience cause he knows this is bringing them peace. Sam is not even bothered when he goes to Church each week with his happy family…thinking God will understand my situation…I had to save my family…

So it can be said that some find that adultery is helpful to their marital happiness…

Does that make it “good”?

No.

Can there be spiritual consequences to such…yes …of the most grave kind.

The ends do not justify the means.

Adultery and other gravely evil proposals are always and everywhere evil …they are contrary to God…and even if someone experiences some “temporal” happiness or even says their conscience is ok with it…does not make it good or ok. Some have deadened in fact their conscience…for they get used to doing such…many do not see the truth due to their emotions or even their will …they just think “this will help my marriage”…or “this is good for such and such”…“I need to do such and such otherwise such and such will happen”…

It is the age old thing that the Bible talks about…the choosing of some temporal or “apparent” happiness…over God and true happiness…true life.

Now is it possible that they have a really erroneious conscience that God will take into account?..it is possible…is it possible for some other things to reduce the culpability?..yes it is…but I would not count on either…for often we can be at least guilty along the way in getting there… and these are very dangerous waters…to say the least…and we have a duty to correct a conscience in error…

Many rationalize things away…and think in terms of the temporal good…“this helps my marriage” …“I need to do what the Church thinks is wrong but it is the Church that is wrong” (misunderstanding the nature of the Church and her authority etc)…or “If I do not do X …Y will happen and Y will be bad for me or for my family”…etc…

Jesus is very clear though: what does it profit for a man to gain the whole world…and loose his soul…? ( see Mark 8:36)

 

[Debora123]

No, there is a statement made by Pope Pius IX in 1853 about the use of “rhythm”. I would imagine that means we understood such things long before then.

The quotes are within this article. I’m having trouble coming up with just the Pope Pius link:
cmri.org/03-nfp.html

Right, 1853 was when the church OK’d it. But it has existed since possibly before Christ.

 

[mwncheesehead]

Zach, the church can err. My priest told my old testament class that because of the mistake of ONE pope, China isn’t Catholic today. If this pope would have handled it differently, China would be Catholic. Now tell me, how come Christ didn’t speak to this pope?? They do make mistakes, and there were bad popes. People say it can’t err in faith in morals. Well it certainly lacked in faith this time, for the Chinese people would be in quite a different boat today if that pope would have lead the right way.

Until that happens (which it won’t), you’re obliged to obey the Church.

 

[Debora123]

I don’t think anyone is calling you names. And lecturing has no benefits to the lecturer who is giving good counsel based on Church teaching. This isn’t about being better than someone else. It is about teaching Truth.

I’ve been called selfish and arrogant and delusional. :whacky:

You have made a choice for your life and yes, that is between you and God but what you have failed to do is admit your choice is sinful which makes you a scandal in the eyes of God and the Church. You are leading others into sin.** You say, “I believe God will understand because I’m basically a good person.”** The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

Mmm no, actually that’s not what I said at all. Neither do I believe that.

Far better for you to say, “Contraception is morally wrong and the Church is right to teach that it is a grave sin, but I have chosen this method to achieve my goals in life because I do not trust God enough to handle what he may give me instead.” That would be an honest statement.

I would say that if that was what I believed. I’m not into the whole lying thing. Even if it is only to myself.

It is not about being a good or bad person. It is about how sinful a person are we going to be?

Not about being a good or bad person? Really? I didn’t know bad people went to heaven.

 

[Debora123]

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=8016889&postcount=31

Hey, thanks!

 

[GEddie]

joclucsylv;8088389:

and sadly only women can bring them back.

No one will “bring them back.” But the historical pendulum has an unnerving habit of returning to human mores that existed before.

ICXC NIKA.

 

[mwncheesehead]

Debora,

I realize some on CAF can sound harsh and uncharitable and I realize you’re sensitive to that, and to which I can appreciate. There are certainly better ways to state the Church’s teachings than some have done here. However, after reading through this thread, I think there are many good Catholics (those of us who are striving to follow all the teachings of our Catholic faith, including the difficult commandments) who are probably frustrated with your open acceptance of condoms, though it’s clear to you and to us through numerous Church teachings, that contraceptive use – including condoms – is serious matter and gravely opposed to our Church’s teaching.

Harsh word use aside, it’s hard to hear a fellow Catholic like yourself proclaim often on CAF that you use condoms and that our Church is “in error” for prohibiting them because they frustrate the objective procreative nature of the marital act. If you have prayed over the matter and determined that condom use was God’s will for you, then you can conclude with complete confidence that those thoughts come from the serpent below, not God. As you know, we Catholics, unlike Protestants, don’t rely on good feelings and “God told me so” thoughts alone when determining how to proceed with moral actions. We do have actual graces that can come to us from God, but when we conclude that we should use condoms as a result of prayer and meditation, then that thought, feeling, or emotion most definitely DOES NOT come from God. We know that because use of condoms directly contradicts the Church’s teaching magisterium.

It is a given that God will judge each of us fairly because He is All-Just. But He established a Church that upholds his ten commandments that He expects us to follow, whether it be inconvenient, harsh, or seemingly unreasonable to us. It comes across in some of your posts (paraphrasing here) “God will understand my condom use because he knows my heart and my particular situation.” True, he knows both, but he has also commanded us to do certain actions (attend Mass on Sunday) and avoid certain actions (use of contraception, including condoms) through his Church. We’re expected to follow those commandments in order to arrive at our final heavenly destination. He wants our hearts and actions to conform to his Will.

 

[Corki]

I’ve been called selfish and arrogant and delusional. :whacky:

ok, I’m the one who said delusional but I didn’t call you delusional. I said what you posted was delusional. Big difference.

Not about being a good or bad person? Really? I didn’t know bad people went to heaven. :rolleyes

Yes, bad people go to heaven all the time. They repent, confess and ammend their lives before they die.

 

[Debora123]

A little provocitive a statement though is it not? I do agree with you about the objective morality, and that even those currently not living it needing to acknowlege and teach that objective reality. But, I think those of us who promote or like NFP need to make some acknowlegements of our own.

1. It is in fact difficult on many levels. Abstiance is an aboration in this culture for one, additionally many people still have a hard time beleive it is at all effective.
2. There do exist a number of (biological) factors that make NFP far more difficult to manage, people facing this should have their fears and concerns acknowleged and they should find support and help from the Catholic community in particular
3. Satan and the world make contraception look so darn easy (and in fact, it is actually easy) as well as effective and good. Just because we hate the source, that doesn’t mean we should hate or make feel less human those who believe the lie.

Perhaps better would be
“I understand God and church teach contraception is immoral. But this is an issue I find I struggle greatly with, and until I can reconcile I have made my choice”.

The charity and respect is greatly appreciated!

 

[Debora123]

But now we’re going to the standard strawman argument. Debora123 seems to have informed her conscience, prayed, discerned, even asked a priest about it, and has made a decision. She didn’t think about it flippantly. She didn’t think about it for 1 day and say, “Oh, I don’t think it’s a sin so I can live my life anyhow I want to”. No. Clearly this must have been an internal struggle she’s had for quite a while and she’s (unfortunately, I guess) taken the view that is a deviation from the norm here on CAF.

Is Debora123 really in sin, or could we say that Debora123 is in a state of invincible ignorance?

Indeed it is true. Thanks for the acknowledgement.

 

[paddy22]

Debora,

I realize some on CAF can sound harsh and uncharitable and I realize you’re sensitive to that, and to which I can appreciate. There are certainly better ways to state the Church’s teachings than some have done here. However, after reading through this thread, I think there are many good Catholics (those of us who are striving to follow all the teachings of our Catholic faith, including the difficult commandments) who are probably frustrated with your open acceptance of condoms, though it’s clear to you and to us through numerous Church teachings, that contraceptive use – including condoms – is serious matter and gravely opposed to our Church’s teaching.

Harsh word use aside, it’s hard to hear a fellow Catholic like yourself proclaim often on CAF that you use condoms and that our Church is “in error” for prohibiting them because they frustrate the objective procreative nature of the marital act. If you have prayed over the matter and determined that condom use was God’s will for you, then you can conclude with complete confidence that those thoughts come from the serpent below, not God. As you know, we Catholics, unlike Protestants, don’t rely on good feelings and “God told me so” thoughts alone when determining how to proceed with moral actions. We do have actual graces that can come to us from God, but when we conclude that we should use condoms as a result of prayer and meditation, then that thought, feeling, or emotion most definitely DOES NOT come from God. We know that because use of condoms directly contradicts the Church’s teaching magisterium.

It is a given that God will judge each of us fairly because He is All-Just. But He established a Church that upholds his ten commandments that He expects us to follow, whether it be inconvenient, harsh, or seemingly unreasonable to us. It comes across in some of your posts (paraphrasing here) “God will understand my condom use because he knows my heart and my particular situation.” True, he knows both, but he has also commanded us to do certain actions (attend Mass on Sunday) and avoid certain actions (use of contraception, including condoms) through his Church. We’re expected to follow those commandments in order to arrive at our final heavenly destination. He wants our hearts and actions to conform to his Will.

Very well put and charitable. I’d like to see a response to this…

 

[Debora123]

of course you believe the Church is in error. It is the only way to justify your position.

ASSUME…

definition - to make an “A*s” out of “U” and “ME.”

I thought the Church was in error long BEFORE I switched to condoms. Before I was even engaged. And during that time I full heartedly intended on using NFP, and thus invested much time and money on the method.

Moral of the story? Please don’t make false judgements and accusations.