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Debora123
Guest
Sure it does.
“No honey, I will not make love to you and give myself to you tonight. You’re fertile.”
OR
“No honey, I will not make love to you and give myself to you tonight. I’m fertile.”
The church finally says ABC is ok!! What would you all think of that??
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“No honey, I will not make love to you and give myself to you tonight. You’re fertile.”
OR
“No honey, I will not make love to you and give myself to you tonight. I’m fertile.”
J
joclucsylv
Guest
EXACTLY!!
B
Bookcat
Guest
Some can…
Some doctrines within the Social doctrine of the Church can change…to give an example…for it by nature is some what provisional due to the contingencies of social life…different ways of legitimate ordering of society etc.
Other things due to the nature of things can not change…though one can understand things deeper in a way that does not say depart from truth already understood.
But we must also remember that “picking and choosing” among various levels of doctrine is not the way of living the Catholic Faith…some things are to be given the assent of Faith…and others are for example to be given while not the assent of Faith the religious assent of intellect and will…
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Debora123
Guest
There’s a higher chance of a condom breaking than there is of correct use of NFP failing.
B
beeliner
Guest
That’s a good one!
How about the relative motions of heavenly bodies?
Or all of the prohibitions regarding Catholics associating with Jews?
Or usurious interest rates such as we all pay monthly on our Visa card accounts?
Regarding birth control specifically, I mentioned this in a previous thread, and I think it bears repeating:
I have lived in three foreign countries, Germany, Austria, and the Netherlands. In the two German-speaking countries, I NEVER, in almost 10 years, heard birth control discussed from the pulpit or mentioned in Catholic publications. It seems to be a non-issue there, and it is rare to find a German family, especially in urban areas, with more than two or three children.
Also, billboards promoting condom use, for both the prevention of AIDS and of unwanted pregnancies, are very common, and some of them quite amusing, for example, a condom covering an ear of corn, with the caption, “Poppt sicher!” (“It’s sure to pop!”)
I don’t understand the Dutch language, but the people there are known for their tolerance and broad-mindedness, so I doubt the situation there is much different from that of their German neighbors.
I once worked, here in the USA, with a young man from Ecuador, a devout Catholic, who told me that he and his wife were AMAZED at the American Church’s attitude toward contraception. In Ecuador, he said, abortion is of course strongly condemned, but contraception is taken for granted, in a largely poor country where couples just can’t afford large families.
What the situation is in other mostly-Catholic countries such as Ireland, France and Poland, I don’t know, perhaps another poster knows.
So rather than ‘changing its teaching’, it seems to me that one day, hopefully not far in the future, the Church will simply have the good sense to do in the USA what it seems to be doing elsewhere, let Humanae Vitae take its place in Church history with all of the other outdated and now ignored encyclicals, and let American Catholics follow their consciences and their God-given COMMON SENSE in matters of family planning.
B
Bookcat
Guest
Again your making your own definitions. When discussing matters of Church teaching one uses those of the Church. It does not.
If one goes to a Math teacher and says 2+2 does not = 4…one can spend hours trying to get him to accept your personal definitions as to what 2 is and what 4 is…but one will not be discussing Math.
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Debora123
Guest
Yup. I’ve pretty much given up hope of ever understanding this Church teaching.
D
Debora123
Guest
Unfortunately this whole contraception teaching is WAAAAYYYY less logical than mathematics.
B
Bookcat
Guest
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PatriceA
Guest
Marriage is about sacrifice though. And sometimes that means sacrificing the need for sex and denying ourselves the pleasure of love making. There are other ways to “give” yourself to your spouse during those times you are trying to avoid pregnancy. Sometimes God is asking us to sacrifice for the greater good of the marriage and for the spouse, sometimes that means foregoing the marital act.
That seems to be one of the main points that people miss that constantly want to justify condoms and any other form of ABC. They are truly missing the chance to draw deeper into their marriage and the understanding of our bodies the way God created them to be used. They miss the chance to draw closer to God, to their faith, and to each other because they can’t possibly imagine that they can not give into any sexual urges whenever they darn well please.
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Debora123
Guest
Lol then I either have a learning disability or I’m just plain stupid.
It’s ok. I’ve finally come to be at peace with my inability to grasp this supposed logical concept. At least I know I’m not alone. Not by a looong shot.
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Debora123
Guest
All I did there was show the NFP barrier.
You think just because someone uses ABC they can have sex whenever they please?? You are very very wrong.
B
Bookcat
Guest
I will repeat the above.Lol then I either have a learning disability or I’m just plain stupid.
It’s ok. I’ve finally come to be at peace with my inability to grasp this supposed logical concept. At least I know I’m not alone. Not by a looong shot.
Your answer just side step the point.If one wants to argue otherwise --one is arguing in ones own head and with oneself…with ones own definitions.
For such is according to the definitions of the Catholic Church not the definitions of a person in Florida.
(where the heat will effect the thinking anyhow…I know I was just there…)
Such is the clear teaching of the Catholic Church. NFP (periodic continence rightly practiced) is open to life. It is right there in the Compendium of the Catechism of the Catholic Church et al…
and
When discussing matters of Church teaching one uses those of the Church. It does not.
If one goes to a Math teacher and says 2+2 does not = 4…one can spend hours trying to get him to accept your personal definitions as to what 2 is and what 4 is…but one will not be discussing Math.
It still stands. One is to use the definitions of the Church when discussing the teachings of the Church…just like when one is discussing Math one must use those of math.
D
Debora123
Guest
Trust me, I am not arguing with myself for my own sake. I have tried very hard to understand this concept, and have used NFP.If one wants to argue otherwise --one is arguing in ones own head and with oneself…with ones own definitions.
For such is according to the definitions of the Catholic Church not the definitions of a person in Florida.
(where the heat will effect the thinking anyhow…I know I was just there…
Such is the clear teaching of the Catholic Church. NFP (periodic continence rightly practiced) is open to life. It is right there in the Compendium of the Catechism of the Catholic Church et al…
P
PatriceA
Guest
Of course there is an NFP barrier, its the way God created our bodies. We are to work with His intent, we are to work with the way He created our reproductive organs to create life, we are to submit to His will, humble ourselves. ABC is about applying our own free will at any point we darn well feel like it, whether we are actually engaging in the marital act or not. You’ve taken God right out of the equation to be addressed again whenever you feel the time is convenient for you whenever you use any form of ABC.
B
Bookcat
Guest
Again side step …
D
Debora123
Guest
NFP is open to life more so than something that is more open to life??
Yes, yes, I know that this is what the Church says. I also know it makes absolutely no sense. It’s ok.
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Debora123
Guest
He created out bodies. WE create the space. The “barrier.”
And we do so by purposely not making love to our spouses when their bodies or not convenient for us. AKA, fertile.
B
Bookcat
Guest
You made an assertion above that was incorrect. Then stated that it was correct. But actually since we are discussing the Teachings of the Catholic Church one must use the definitions of the Church in such a discussion. You were responding similar to a person who wants to use his own definition of 2 in the problem of 2 +2 = 4.
In doing math one must use the definitions of Math.
In discussing the Teachings of the Catholic Church…one uses those of the Church.
P
PatriceA
Guest
I believe He also created the “barrier” by the way He designed our bodies and submitting ourselves after prayerful discernment to His will. I presume you do not.
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