The church finally says ABC is ok!! What would you all think of that??

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joclucsylv said:
But in the end it’s the same…with NFP or with contraception the couple does not want a baby.
Still don’t see the difference. This is taking me a while to understand.
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An intention can be somewhat similar…but there can be differences.

Intent is not just one simple thing…

Joe intends to get a cup of coffee. He goes down and gets it out of his coffee pot.

I intend to get a cup of coffee. I go and at gun point make the coffee vendor give me a cup off coffee.

We both intended to get a cup of coffee. Joe’s intention embraced good means. Mine embraced evil means. (though here I could perhaps accept that the ends justify the means hee hee …:compcoff:)

NFP involves the intent to avoid an new conception “not out of selfishness but for serious reasons; and with methods that conform to the objective criteria of morality, that is, periodic continence and use of the infertile periods.” ( Comp. CCC 497)

Contraception involves the intent to prevent …to hinder procreation (for what ever reason) using methods that are objectively disordered …are intrinsically immoral (either in anticipation of the conjugal act, in its accomplishment or in the development of its natural consequences). (Comp. CCC 498).
 
In the end you have two types of people; those who follow what God has taught through His Church and those who reject what He has taught, birth control included.

Think of our Lord’s difficult doctrine on the Eucharist in John Chapter Six. John 6:66 tells us that many of his disciples left Him because they didn’t understand, “this is a hard teaching” is heard. How many of us can explain Transubstantiation yet we believe it (I pray we all do). Is NFP a hard teaching? Do we understand it completely? Is rejecting what the world tells us is okay in favor of the difficult teachings that may cause us to loose our dreams of vacations, large houses, nice cars difficult? You bet, otherwise Christ wouldn’t have taught it.

Take up your cross and follow your Lord whether you understand Him or not.
 
Bookcat said:
Joclucsylv!!!

Not it is not. (unless someone has such an intent…I have explained this in detail …see other posts)

Period.

If you wish to discuss the Teachings of the Catholic Church or Catholic Moral theology one must understand and define terms and actions etc as such is done by the Church and the science of Moral Theology.

Just as if you want to discuss Math…then use the definitions and undertandings of Math.
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I was never good at math. That’s probably why I can’t understand this.
 
joclucsylv said:
But I have read it is sinful to use with the contraceptive mind.
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Yes it can be sinful without serious reasons (for a reason here to be just it must be serious) to make use intentionally of only the infertile days.
 
Mary_Gail_36 said:
NFP is allowed for “just” reasons. If you have “unjust” reasons you should not use NFP.
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Well then, I willl be quite honest in admitting that I have 2 children and never want another one. Is that a just reason. If not, I would be using NFP for unjust reasons in which case I may as well use contraception.
 
joclucsylv said:
Bookcat!!! NFP IS THE CONTRACEPTIVE INTENT!!! Making sure there is no egg there so that one can’t get pregnant is the contraceptive intent weather or not you people want to admit it!!! :banghead:
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Contraceptive has to apply to the act itself. NFP does nothing to make sure the egg is not there when you are having sex.

No one has sex every day. Chosing to have sex on Monday but not on Friday is not immoral even if you know that on Monday you aren’t likely to be as fertile as on Friday.

Contraceptive intent is a misuse of the word “contraceptive” when applied to NFP. It is a well-meaning way of saying that you shouldn’t use NFP without a just or serious reason.

Using lots of exclamation points does not change the fact that NFP is not contraception. It is certainly birth control or a method of family planning but not contraception. Not logically, theologically or semantically.
 
joclucsylv said:
I was never good at math. That’s probably why I can’t understand this.
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Nor was I …hence I studied Theology…

But non the less…we need to use the proper definitions and terms etc in discoursing on our subject.

🙂
 
Bookcat said:
Yes it can be sinful without serious reasons (for a reason here to be just it must be serious) to make use intentionally of only the infertile days.
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Hmmm…and how many NFPers who contantly throw out the catechism against NFP are using for unjust, sinful reasons. That of course we will never know and is none of my business. Just a passing thought I had.
 
Charlotte1776 said:
Frustrating, isn’t it? Whenever the topic of NFP comes up, contradictions and falsehoods tend to follow. And then come the defensiveness and ad hominem arguments! Fun fun.

I’m trying my very best to come to a point where I just accept NFP without caring whether I understand it or what impact it’s going to have on my physical health, my marriage, and my quality of life. It’s not a happy place for sure, but it’s where I need to be if I’m going to live with it. Fighting against it is a lost cause. My advice is just to give up hope and give up trying. I have and it’s honestly been surprisingly liberating. Surrender to God’s will like all the other posters tell folks who struggle. There’s no other option.
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All my life I’ve fully intended on using NFP, even though I didn’t understand it or agree with it. While I was engaged, my husband and I paid for NFP classes and spent $500 on an NFP machine for the extra assistance. We did everything right. We dated for 4 years before getting married, we saved ourselves for marriage, and we followed all the rules. We prayed the rosary together, went to Church weekly together, etc etc.

We tried NFP, and it ended up causing a lot of problems for us, for reasons I will not get into (though I’m sure people will speculate and accuse me of things that aren’t even true). After much prayer, discernment, and even our priest’s blessing, we decided to go ahead and use condoms. It has helped us tremendously and solved the problems we were having before. NFP simply did not work for us and hurt our marriage.
 
Corki said:
Contraceptive has to apply to the act itself. NFP does nothing to make sure the egg is not there when you are having sex.

No one has sex every day. Chosing to have sex on Monday but not on Friday is not immoral even if you know that on Monday you aren’t likely to be as fertile as on Friday.

Contraceptive intent is a misuse of the word “contraceptive” when applied to NFP. It is a well-meaning way of saying that you shouldn’t use NFP without a just or serious reason.

Using lots of exclamation points does not change the fact that NFP is not contraception. It is certainly birth control or a method of family planning but not contraception. Not logically, theologically or semantically.
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Ok I understand that so far. See…I am learning from this thread I started!😃
 
Calliso said:
I guess I must be slow because I still donlt get the reasoning as to why NFP is allowed but condoms and other forms of birthcontrol are not. I mean my mind is going in loops trying to figure it out! 🤷 I mean to me I would find the teaching far more logical if NFP wasn;t involved.
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Same here buddy. 😦
 
Compendium:
  1. What is the meaning of the conjugal act?
2362-2367

The conjugal act has a twofold meaning: unitive (the mutual self-giving of the spouses) and procreative (an openness to the transmission of life). No one may break the inseparable connection which God has established between these two meanings of the conjugal act by excluding one or the other of them.
  1. When is it moral to regulate births?
2368-2369
2399

The regulation of births, which is an aspect of responsible fatherhood and motherhood, is objectively morally acceptable when it is pursued by the spouses without external pressure; when it is practiced not out of selfishness but for serious reasons; and with methods that conform to the objective criteria of morality, that is, periodic continence and use of the infertile periods.
  1. What are immoral means of birth control?
2370-2372

Every action - for example, direct sterilization or contraception - is intrinsically immoral which (either in anticipation of the conjugal act, in its accomplishment or in the development of its natural consequences) proposes, as an end or as a means, to hinder procreation.

vatican.va/archive/compendium_ccc/documents/archive_2005_compendium-ccc_en.html
 
Debora123 said:
All my life I’ve fully intended on using NFP, even though I didn’t understand it or agree with it. While I was engaged, my husband and I paid for NFP classes and spent $500 on an NFP machine for the extra assistance. We did everything right. We dated for 4 years before getting married, we saved ourselves for marriage, and we followed all the rules. We prayed the rosary together, went to Church weekly together, etc etc.

We tried NFP, and it ended up causing a lot of problems for us, for reasons I will not get into (though I’m sure people will speculate and accuse me of things that aren’t even true). After much prayer, discernment, and even our priest’s blessing, we decided to go ahead and use condoms. It has helped us tremendously and solved the problems we were having before. NFP simply did not work for us and hurt our marriage.
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and here is a woman who has done right by God by even saving herself for marriage. 😃

Thank you for sharing.
 
joclucsylv said:
hmmm…and how many nfpers who contantly throw out the catechism against nfp are using for unjust, sinful reasons. That of course we will never know and is none of my business. Just a passing thought i had.
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493.2

🙂
 
joclucsylv said:
But I have read it is sinful to use with the contraceptive mind. Anytime you are using it to prevent a baby you have the contraceptive mind.
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Is it possible? maybe. I highly doubt it, though. NFP isn’t necessarily easy, it calls for sacrifice. Even if NFP is used with the wrong mindset, it is not the sin of contraception, but of selfishness or perhaps lack of trust.
 
joclucsylv said:
Well then, I willl be quite honest in admitting that I have 2 children and never want another one. Is that a just reason. If not, I would be using NFP for unjust reasons in which case I may as well use contraception.
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I wouldn’t be able to know what your reasons are.

But say a third comes along some how? What would you do?
 
joclucsylv said:
I was never good at math. That’s probably why I can’t understand this.
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No worries, I am VERY good at math (a natural logical, analytical, rational thinker).

And I STILL don’t understand this!! Lol.
 
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