The church finally says ABC is ok!! What would you all think of that??

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sw85 said:
Intent is irrelevant. The evidence right here and now indicates that you are not so open: you are deliberately endeavoring to pervert the procreative end toward which marriage is ordered.

This is bad enough in that it violates both natural law and the teachings of the Church. If you swore an oath that you would be open to life (not open to life when you feel like it, later on), then you compound the sin with perjury.

😦
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Well fortunately, and as you pointed out, the vow was “to accept children lovingly from God.”

…Which I will full heartedly do once I have money, stability, and a marriage that is older than 9 months lol. But if one comes now, unplanned, I will take it and love it with all my soul. :love:

No mention of NFP on my vows, so my marriage is very much valid, as no promises were broken.
 
joclucsylv said:
It’s her soul, her decision.

Hey, could you explain to me why Pope Benedict stated that it is ok for homosexual prostitutes to use condoms??
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It is precisely because it is her soul that I’m encouraging her to make the right decision.

Pope Benedict’s statement was not that condom use by homosexual prostitutes was morally permissible but that the act of love inherent in it (springing from a desire to avoid infecting the client) constituted a first step toward a fuller and more human understanding of sexuality. Edward Feser provided a good analysis of that speech here.
 
Debora123 said:
I never called anyone judgmental or arrogant. Someone else called ME arrogant! LOL! :whacky:

I appreciate your concern for my soul and think you are being genuine.

This is a matter between God, myself, and my husband. And you are right, He will judge me accordingly when the time is right.

I know I have many of you that I can turn to if I feel God is calling me back to NFP.
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Well, I apologize then.

I cannot imagine why you would risk your soul over something as trivial as this. It profits no woman to give up her soul for the world. 😦
 
sw85 said:
Well, I apologize then.

I cannot imagine why you would risk your soul over something as trivial as this. It profits no woman to give up her soul for the world. 😦
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No need to apologize, all is fine!

I don’t see it as risking my soul… nor do I feel as though I am doing so.
 
sw85 said:
It is precisely because it is her soul that I’m encouraging her to make the right decision.

Pope Benedict’s statement was not that condom use by homosexual prostitutes was morally permissible but that the act of love inherent in it (springing from a desire to avoid infecting the client) constituted a first step toward a fuller and more human understanding of sexuality. Edward Feser provided a good analysis of that speech here.
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Couldn’t that same charitable logic be used with anyone here? For instance, the woman who uses ABC out of respect and love for her husband. . .it’s a good first step. We’re all on our first few steps.

This is my beef with all of you black-and-white Catholics. There is very little understanding. Once you’re a Catholic - according to some - you must tout the line on every bit of minutia or you’re in danger of hell fire.

i doubt that very much.
 
joclucsylv said:
If it’s about what God wants, why do you NFPers watch your cycle so darn closely to make sure that when you are having sex there is NO egg there. You say it’s open to God. That is such a joke.
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Because God created the woman’s cycle. We’re watching to abstain from sex on days when there is an egg or the likelihood that there will be one soon, at all other times it is irrelevant whether we have sex or not. We’re using what God created, not what Trojan created, or what the guy who invented the pill created, or the guy who developed vasectomies created.

And I"m sorry if both you and Deborah feel as if I have been anything less than charitable, and most certainly if you feel I’ve been hostile. That is certainly not my approach, though I admit I can get a bit hotheaded when typing and hit “submit reply” before looking over what I’ve just written.:o

I am also sorry, I have not mentioned this before. But I have been praying for both of you. In fact, you both have been quite at the forefront of my prayers the last couple of days. Prayers for understanding and acceptance of God’s teaching, and God’s will as well as patience for those of us who are often less than adequate with our abilities to get our point across in a charitable and respectful manner.

I guess I’m simply confused. I understand that neither of you, I think at least for Deborah, feel as if you’re doing anything wrong, because you feel the Church is wrong in it’s teaching. But again, I state, it’s not the Church’s teaching. It’s God’s teaching. And I’m baffled by anyone who desires the fullness of the Church while at the same time believing that God is in error.

Again I find that arrogant. And I don’t mean that in a hostile, holier than thou way. I’ve been arrogant about the same subject in the past, and I can be equally arrogant in other subjects. I’m well aware that my time in purgatory will most be well-deserved and at great length. What I find disconcerting is the unapologetic attitude of, “I know better than every other great Catholic mind in the last 2000 years, including Jesus.”

I’m sorry if I’ve offended, or made you all feel uncomfortable. Obviously you have made your choices and they are only yours to make, hence free will.

And I apologize if I really did call you arrogant, Deborah. What I most likely meant was your line of thinking. Just as in the above. It’s not the person themselves that’s arrogant, but the belief they are holding that infers arrogance or at the very least pride. That may not necessarily be the intent.

I wish you both a blessed and peace-filled night.
 
Sullibe said:
Because God created the woman’s cycle. We’re watching to abstain from sex on days when there is an egg or the likelihood that there will be one soon, at all other times it is irrelevant whether we have sex or not. We’re using what God created, not what Trojan created, or what the guy who invented the pill created, or the guy who developed vasectomies created.

And I"m sorry if both you and Deborah feel as if I have been anything less than charitable, and most certainly if you feel I’ve been hostile. That is certainly not my approach, though I admit I can get a bit hotheaded when typing and hit “submit reply” before looking over what I’ve just written.:o

I am also sorry, I have not mentioned this before. But I have been praying for both of you. In fact, you both have been quite at the forefront of my prayers the last couple of days. Prayers for understanding and acceptance of God’s teaching, and God’s will as well as patience for those of us who are often less than adequate with our abilities to get our point across in a charitable and respectful manner.

I guess I’m simply confused. I understand that neither of you, I think at least for Deborah, feel as if you’re doing anything wrong, because you feel the Church is wrong in it’s teaching. But again, I state, it’s not the Church’s teaching. It’s God’s teaching. And I’m baffled by anyone who desires the fullness of the Church while at the same time believing that God is in error.

Again I find that arrogant. And I don’t mean that in a hostile, holier than thou way. I’ve been arrogant about the same subject in the past, and I can be equally arrogant in other subjects. I’m well aware that my time in purgatory will most be well-deserved and at great length. What I find disconcerting is the unapologetic attitude of, “I know better than every other great Catholic mind in the last 2000 years, including Jesus.”

I’m sorry if I’ve offended, or made you all feel uncomfortable. Obviously you have made your choices and they are only yours to make, hence free will.

I wish you both a blessed and peace-filled night.
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Thank you for the prayers and blessings!
 
freerf said:
Couldn’t that same charitable logic be used with anyone here? For instance, the woman who uses ABC out of respect and love for her husband. . .it’s a good first step. We’re all on our first few steps.
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The point he was making, though, wasn’t that that “first step” makes the act morally permissible (in fact he stresses that condom use is neither a real nor a moral solution to the problem of HIV): merely that some good could ultimately come of it because that act of charity inculcates in the person a fuller sense of humanity and compassion. Of course, you still cannot do evil that good may result. The Church rejects such consequentialism.
This is my beef with all of you black-and-white Catholics. There is very little understanding. Once you’re a Catholic - according to some - you must tout the line on every bit of minutia or you’re in danger of hell fire.
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i doubt that very much.
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Conversely, *everyone *must toe the line, whether they are Catholic or not. That line is, simply, the truth; and what is true is necessarily good, and what is good is necessarily binding on us all.

And we are forgiven for our shortcomings but probably not our deliberate rebellions.
 
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freerf said:
Couldn’t that same charitable logic be used with anyone here? For instance, the woman who uses ABC out of respect and love for her husband. . .it’s a good first step. We’re all on our first few steps.

This is my beef with all of you black-and-white Catholics. There is very little understanding. Once you’re a Catholic - according to some - you must tout the line on every bit of minutia or you’re in danger of hell fire.

i doubt that very much.
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👍
 
Debora123 said:
No need to apologize, all is fine!

I don’t see it as risking my soul… nor** do I feel** as though I am doing so.
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Therein lies the rub.

“Feeling” has to do with the internal functioning of our minds/bodies.

It cannot guide us to God, who is ultimately “Other” to ourselves.

God Bless and ICXC NIKA.
 
Seems to me that if she has spent lots of time in prayer and in adoration and begged God for an answer, she would have a STRONG conviction in her soul that it is wrong. She has prayed, and concluded with this decision.
 
GEddie said:
Therein lies the rub.

“Feeling” has to do with the internal functioning of our minds/bodies.

It cannot guide us to God, who is ultimately “Other” to ourselves.

God Bless and ICXC NIKA.
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I see what you’re saying. I’ll correct myself:

“Nor do I believe I am doing so.” 😉
 
joclucsylv said:
Seems to me that if she has spent lots of time in prayer and in adoration and begged God for an answer, she would have a STRONG conviction in her soul that it is wrong. She has prayed, and concluded with this decision.
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So have many who have begun many a heresy and spread many an error through the world or at least their personal world.

Prayer …is good. But if the result of prayer contradicts the Teachings of the Church…especially such that is part of the Churches tradition …such should be dismissed…

A great Catholic Spiritual director Fr. Jacques Philippe put it well regarding discernment:

“A divine inspiration cannot ask us to do something that contradicts what the Word of God teaches and asks of us. This means not the Word of God as compiled by each individual’s fantasy and interpretation, but Holy Scripture as transmitted and explained by the teaching authority of the Church. For example, a divine inspiration cannot ask me to commit acts that the Church considers immoral. In the same way, true inspirations always go in the direction of a spirit of obedience to the Church.”

— In the School of the Holy Spirit, p.47 Scepter Publishers
 
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