The church finally says ABC is ok!! What would you all think of that??

[KimberlyAnn0218]

OK, suppose a drug was discovered that, if taken just before sex, reduces that chances of pregnancy by 50% as compared to what it would have been without taking the drug? Would that be ABC? It does not totally remove the openness to procreation - it only lessens it a bit. Then suppose that the chances were reduced by 75%, then 90%, then 99%. At what point would taking such a drug (or perhaps a natural fruit juice) become ABC?

Why would you even bother taking it then if it only lessened it a bit? If you want birth control you want birth control. Pregnancy is the a natural “consequence” of sex. I think this is a foundational doctrine. I don’t see it changing.

 

[Catholic41506]

Please edxplain to me in layman’s terms then. Don’t cite documents. Explain. I am not as well learned as you all.

Pope Benedict XVI wrote a book entitled “Light of the World” in which he made a comment that was taken out of context. It is important to know that the Holy Father was speaking as a person and not from his teaching office as Pope, two very different things.

The Holy Father is protected by the charism of infallibility, meaning he cannot teach error regarding faith and morals. Humanae Vitae by Pope Paul VI infallibly declared that ALL forms of birth control are wrong and this is binding on all the faithful.

When we go before Christ in the Blessed Sacrament and say “Amen” to the precious body and blood of our Lord, we are accepting all that He teaches through His Church. If we accept the Eucharist and deny the teachings of the Church…oh boy are we in trouble. If you truly believe the Church is in error and deny her teachings, please do yourself a favor and abstain from Holy Communion until you conform your beliefs to what the Church teaches. Your doing grave harm to your soul everytime you falsely accept Christ in the Eucharist.

 

[Seatuck]

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20101221_luce-del-mondo_en.html

This is the official Vatican clarification.

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20101221_luce-del-mondo_en.html

Please be careful about trying to read something in to statements that isn’t there to support what you wish it to.

 

[crazzeto]

But in the end it’s the same…with NFP or with contraception the couple does not want a baby.
Still don’t see the difference. This is taking me a while to understand.

No, it’s not the same at all… With the one you are actually denying the very purpose of sexuality, you are saying I want sex I’m going to have it whenever I want it and I’m going to deny the procreative aspect to make sure I get as much as I want.

This is clearly not the case with the other, sex doesn’t become a persuite of personal gratification like it does above. Rather, it stays sacramentally true to what it is. When you have sex, you allow for the possibility of bringing a new child into the world.

It is a totally different mindset.

 

[LaSainte]

Please stop saying that the teaching on ABC is infallible. This has never been agreed upon by theologians, bishops, priests or cardinals, and has never been officially declared by any pope. Methinks that given the ENORMOUS disagreement over the issue and he fact that it is supposedly so important to our souls and the fact that more than 90% of Catholics ignore and disagree with this teaching, that the Pope would simply come out and make an ex-cathedra statement or simply say in nonuncertain terms “this has been infallibly taught by the magisterium” to clarify it and save some souls, but no pope ever has. I wonder why?

 

[benedictus2]

As my mother used to tell me I will say to you. Never say Never!!!

And I suppose your mother is the magisterium so we should take that to heart.

 

[Catholic41506]

Please stop saying that the teaching on ABC is infallible. This has never been agreed upon by theologians, bishops, priests or cardinals, and has never been officially declared by any pope. Methinks that given the ENORMOUS disagreement over the issue and he fact that it is supposedly so important to our souls and the fact that more than 90% of Catholics ignore and disagree with this teaching, that the Pope would simply come out and make an ex-cathedra statement or simply say in nonuncertain terms “this has been infallibly taught by the magisterium” to clarify it and save some souls, but no pope ever has. I wonder why?

Ah, a play on words to confuse the faithful? You are correct, it was not an “ex cathedra statement” by the Holy Father. Your reasoning that we may therefore say it is not infallible teaching since it is not declared ex cathedra is misleading and wrong.

Please see the following:
ewtn.com/library/Theology/AUTHUMVT.HTM

 

[LaSainte]

Ah, a play on words to confuse the faithful? You are correct, it was not an “ex cathedra statement” by the Holy Father. Your reasoning that we may therefore say it is not infallible teaching since it is not declared ex cathedra is misleading and wrong.

Please see the following:
ewtn.com/library/Theology/AUTHUMVT.HTM

Please read what I said again. I never said that a teaching had to be declared ex cathedra to be infallible. I said that if WERE an infallible teaching by the magisterium, given the fact that even the clergy (cardinals, bishops, priests) and theologians argue about it’s infallibility, and given the fact that 90% of Catholics ignore the teaching or see it as optional, that the simple and logical thing to do would be for the pope to either 1.) issue an ex cathedra statement, reinforcing the teaching as infallible, or 2.) simply declare in a statement that it HAS already been taught infallibly.

This would make it clear to every catholic once and for all and even to the theologians who argue about it as well as the clergy, who would no longer have any excuse to sidestep the issue or make allowances for ABC.

Curious that no pope has done this don’t you think? If it’s infallible, it’s infallible. Just come out and say it.

 

[sw85]

If that works for homosexual prostitutes why not for married couples? Especially given that many more people have STDs than think they have; herpes is actually pretty common among other ones.

This is what the Pope actually said -

The point, though, and this is fairly clear from the Pope’s words, is that it doesn’t “work.” It is neither a “real” nor a “moral” solution. All he has done is make the simple observation that the act of charity which compels prostitutes in that case to the sin of wearing a condom may constitute a first step toward a fuller, more human (i.e., more in accordance with natural law) understanding of sexuality – one that would logically compel them to marry and have condom-less sex in the future.

Also note that the issue at hand here isn’t contraception but disease control.

So then, Christ spoke to John Paul about homosexuat and heterosexual prostitutes that it is ok to wear condoms as the first act of love so as to not infect their clients??

He was speaking offhand in an interview, not in a Papal encyclical or other official document (where papal infallibility applies).

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

So then, Christ spoke to John Paul about homosexuat and heterosexual prostitutes that it is ok to wear condoms as the first act of love so as to not infect their clients??

1. The interview was with Pope Benedict. Blessed Pope John Paul II passed away in 2005.
2. It is not ok for prostitues to use condoms… the idea was that although prostituion is among the most base acts, the conscience of the prostitute tells them that the condom use “protects” the client. That idea of “protecting” the client shows a spark of altruism.
3. Homosexual sexual activity is still sinful, as is fornication, as is prostituion. The Pope has not condoned these activities. They are sinful.

 

[joclucsylv]

Pope Benedict XVI wrote a book entitled “Light of the World” in which he made a comment that was taken out of context. It is important to know that the Holy Father was speaking as a person and not from his teaching office as Pope, two very different things.

The Holy Father is protected by the charism of infallibility, meaning he cannot teach error regarding faith and morals. Humanae Vitae by Pope Paul VI infallibly declared that ALL forms of birth control are wrong and this is binding on all the faithful.

When we go before Christ in the Blessed Sacrament and say “Amen” to the precious body and blood of our Lord, we are accepting all that He teaches through His Church. If we accept the Eucharist and deny the teachings of the Church…oh boy are we in trouble. If you truly believe the Church is in error and deny her teachings, please do yourself a favor and abstain from Holy Communion until you conform your beliefs to what the Church teaches. Your doing grave harm to your soul everytime you falsely accept Christ in the Eucharist.

Will do. I haven’t been to communion lately.

 

[Bookcat]

So then, Christ spoke to John Paul about homosexuat and heterosexual prostitutes that it is ok to wear condoms as the first act of love so as to not infect their clients??

Are you going to read that statement or not???

John Paul? He was in Heaven at the time…

and again your getting it all wrong…Poep Benedict XVI did not say any such thing

 

[Sullibe]

Zach, the church can err. My priest told my old testament class that because of the mistake of ONE pope, China isn’t Catholic today. If this pope would have handled it differently, China would be Catholic. Now tell me, how come Christ didn’t speak to this pope?? They do make mistakes, and there were bad popes. People say it can’t err in faith in morals. Well it certainly lacked in faith this time, for the Chinese people would be in quite a different boat today if that pope would have lead the right way.

The Church can err in discipline but NOT in Church doctrine, which is faith and morals. That’s a huge and arrogant assumption on the part of your priest, seeing as how he has NO idea what the outcome would be if things would have been different.

2000 years ago, NFP wasn’t known. It only became ok…what year?? That’s why I have a hard time believing it. Again, I have to think what the apostles would have thought of this practice… Do you think they would have approved of couples using NFP to make 100 percent sure they didn’t have sex during fertile time in order to DELIBERATELY not have a baby. I think not.

Again, NFP is NOT about having sex on infertile days, it’s about abstaining from sex on fertile days. I understand you don’t see or understand the distinction, but there is one.

It is what I is. I understand how I understand. It’s ok.

This is the basis of moral relativism.

Please stop saying that the teaching on ABC is infallible. This has never been agreed upon by theologians, bishops, priests or cardinals, and has never been officially declared by any pope. Methinks that given the ENORMOUS disagreement over the issue and he fact that it is supposedly so important to our souls and the fact that more than 90% of Catholics ignore and disagree with this teaching, that the Pope would simply come out and make an ex-cathedra statement or simply say in nonuncertain terms “this has been infallibly taught by the magisterium” to clarify it and save some souls, but no pope ever has. I wonder why?

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church

2035 The supreme degree of participation in the authority of Christ is ensured by the charism of infallibility. This infallibility extends as far as does the deposit of divine Revelation;* it also extends to all those elements of doctrine, including morals,** without which the saving truths of the faith cannot be preserved, explained, or observed.*77

So yes, it has been taught infallibly, and the Pope does not need to "come out and say anything, because the Catechism already says this. People should be more willing to read about what their faith believes.

 

[crazzeto]

Please read what I said again. I never said that a teaching had to be declared ex cathedra to be infallible. I said that if WERE an infallible teaching by the magisterium, given the fact that even the clergy (cardinals, bishops, priests) and theologians argue about it’s infallibility, and given the fact that 90% of Catholics ignore the teaching or see it as optional, that the simple and logical thing to do would be for the pope to either 1.) issue an ex cathedra statement, reinforcing the teaching as infallible, or 2.) simply declare in a statement that it HAS already been taught infallibly.

This would make it clear to every catholic once and for all and even to the theologians who argue about it as well as the clergy, who would no longer have any excuse to sidestep the issue or make allowances for ABC.

Curious that no pope has done this don’t you think? If it’s infallible, it’s infallible. Just come out and say it.

LeSainte, I really feel like you sould stay out of the field of trying to manipulate the fathers and teachings to make it look like this is completely up to the faithful.

The matter is far more simple, Holy Mother Church has given us very clear instruction in the matter. Usage of contraceptives is grave matter, and there for should be avoided for the salvation of our souls. It is not good to try and fool our selves in the manner in which you are attempting here.

It is our vocation as Christian lay to be obedient to the teaching athourity of Christ here on earth, the very Church he instituded. Yes we should use our intellect to understand why, but ultimitly it is our calling to submit.

 

[Bookcat]

2000 years ago, NFP wasn’t known. It only became ok…what year?? That’s why I have a hard time believing it. Again, I have to think what the apostles would have thought of this practice… Do you think they would have approved of couples using NFP to make 100 percent sure they didn’t have sex during fertile time in order to DELIBERATELY not have a baby. I think not.

The Apostles approve of NFP …for as Jesus said “what you bind on earth is bound in heaven”…and the Church has condemned contraception…even it its less technological forms since the early years …

 

[joclucsylv]

No, the Church cannot teach error. Please provide documentation that a successor of Peter caused apostasy in China.
If your priest is teaching that the Church can teach error, you need to report your priest to your local bishop.

I will ask him. He is very educated and holy and I doubt he would tell lies. If I can’t find the history myself, I will contact him and get back to you!!!

 

[Bookcat]

No, the Church cannot teach error. Please provide documentation that a successor of Peter caused apostasy in China.
If your priest is teaching that the Church can teach error, you need to report your priest to your local bishop.

Not addressing he “claim here” per se…but yes in some practical decision like…shall I send 100,000 missionaries here or there…or shall I talk with this leader or that …yes of course a Pope can make a mistake.

But in certain matters he…and the Church is protected by the *Holy Spirit *from error!

 

[Bookcat]

I will ask him. He is very educated and holy and I doubt he would tell lies. If I can’t find the history myself, I will contact him and get back to you!!!

It does not matter…such as ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with faith and morals…

 

[vsedriver]

it is allowed for the collection of a sperm sample.

this is a medical procedure and has nothing to do with the marital act, therefore it has nothing to do with making condoms morally acceptable to use.

 

[crazzeto]

I will ask him. He is very educated and holy and I doubt he would tell lies. If I can’t find the history myself, I will contact him and get back to you!!!

The successor of Peter did not cause apostosy in China, the communist Chinese government has by instituting their own church, and hand picking their own Bishops who will agree with Chinese political policy. This is apostosy.

The Holy Father, for decades (yes more than one of them) has run a church in suppression in china for many years, and has done his best to prop it up and support it under the worst of conditions.