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smirknoff
Guest
That is ironic since. Hatian runaway children work in death camp conditions in the DR to make about 10% of your sugar.
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S
smirknoff
Guest
No, i have not noticed you being racist. Why do you ask?
S
smirknoff
Guest
Said what?
I am curious if you can put what I said and what you said that I said into the same post although feeling embarrassed.
S
smirknoff
Guest
Yo Steve
THEISM is not “Deism”
Webster wept.
THEISM is not “Deism”
Webster wept.
C
catholique
Guest
As a Catholic that grew up in a predominantly Mormon community, I have studied the Mormon tenet of the Great Apostasy. James E. Talmage was one of the Mormon General Authorities and considered a great scholar. I read his work The Great Apostasy, which some Mormons consider to be proof of its occurrence.
In his book, Talmage touts that St. Irenaeus writes about the increasing Gnostic heresy during the 2nd century. Talmage uses this example of growing heresies as signs of a general apostasy. What Talmage failed to mention was that St. Irenaeus cites his own apostolic succession to refute the Gnostics who claimed to have a secret knowledge from Christ.
St. Irenaeus was a pupil of St. Polycarp, the bishop of Smyrna. In turn, Polycarp was a hearer of the Apostle John. This apostolic lineage indicates that the Great Apostasy had not occurred by the 2nd century in contrast with Mormon claims that it had occurred by the end of the 1st century with the death of the Apostle John.
As the Catholic Church has a priesthood with an unbroken line of authority, the Great Apostasy could not have taken place. Taking this into account, if the Great Apostasy did not occur, then whether or not a church in the Americas apostatized is irrelevant.
Additionally, there is no link between the remnants of ancient Mesoamerican civilization and ancient Hebrew culture. No Christian church existed in the Americas that we know of until the arrival of Europeans in the New World.
Individually, the Mormons I’ve met are great people. However, I’ve had a difficult time reconciling their church’s claims with verifiable history and other facts.
In his book, Talmage touts that St. Irenaeus writes about the increasing Gnostic heresy during the 2nd century. Talmage uses this example of growing heresies as signs of a general apostasy. What Talmage failed to mention was that St. Irenaeus cites his own apostolic succession to refute the Gnostics who claimed to have a secret knowledge from Christ.
St. Irenaeus was a pupil of St. Polycarp, the bishop of Smyrna. In turn, Polycarp was a hearer of the Apostle John. This apostolic lineage indicates that the Great Apostasy had not occurred by the 2nd century in contrast with Mormon claims that it had occurred by the end of the 1st century with the death of the Apostle John.
As the Catholic Church has a priesthood with an unbroken line of authority, the Great Apostasy could not have taken place. Taking this into account, if the Great Apostasy did not occur, then whether or not a church in the Americas apostatized is irrelevant.
Additionally, there is no link between the remnants of ancient Mesoamerican civilization and ancient Hebrew culture. No Christian church existed in the Americas that we know of until the arrival of Europeans in the New World.
Individually, the Mormons I’ve met are great people. However, I’ve had a difficult time reconciling their church’s claims with verifiable history and other facts.
Stephen168
New member
He knows. He is changing the subject because there is no defense for the racist teaching of Mormonism.
Stephen168
New member
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pablope
Guest
Who is Gamaliel? And what is his connection to the discussion? Sorry,I fail to see it. And it is the Act of being raised in good manner if you cite the reference, not everyone is aware of the reference you are citing.
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zaffiroborant
Guest
I suppose it’s also “ironic” that I make my kids do chores around the house because around the world children are forced into household labor under brutal conditions
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pablope
Guest
Yep…when faced with the truth of one’s action, deflect the blame and accuse the another of what you are guilty off, since you cannot accept what you just did.
Very smart indeed…and a reflection of you upbringing.
P
pablope
Guest
Yep…when one’s action is called for what it is…the defense mechanishm to cope with it is to accuse another…to deflect blame from themselves…since they do not have the intestinal fortitude to accept it.
W
wisdomseeker
Guest
Yes, He does. The only way to do that is that Jesus established His Church to make every generation aware of this fact. However mormons cannot be responsible for such since they did not existed until few years back. Only the CC can show history of being here since Jesus walked on earth. Therefore the CC is to be credit for making all man aware of the Truth. Apostasy, according to your statement simply could not be possible.
Stephen168
New member
which is why Mormons equate slavery to black to claim that Augustine taught the Ham curse meant dark skin without quotes of Augustine. The idea that the curse of Ham means dark skin does predate Mormonism, but the true Church of Christ would never make it a doctrine and practice like Mormons did.
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Pepband_Mom
Guest
I am obviously long-winded here but have much to mention
#1
LDS have a problem reconciling a “properly translated” Bible to their system. Shocking to those who don’t know they equate Jesus Christ to be the brother of Satan. To take the lowly level of an fallen angel, elevate it to the level of the divine is absurd and a lie; The Roman Catholic Church has always asserted that Jesus is God. To be a Christian you must agree that Jesus Christ has a divine nature and is man and neither conflict; that is, Jesus Christ is GOD MADE MAN or the GOD-MAN. Anything less than that is a heresy and Truth is fragmenting. LDS believe Jesus had a good plan, Satan had a bad plan & the council of the Gods agreed to Jesus’ plan is how the man-made story goes.
A few verses to pray over:
the 7 I AM’s by Jesus in the Book of John
Jn 1:1 “… the Word was GOD”
Jn 8:58 “Before Abraham was, I AM”
Jn 20:28 “My Lord and my GOD”
Luke “… my spirit rejoices in GOD my Savior”
Hebrews 1:6 “let all God’s angels WORSHIP Him (Jesus)”
#2
There is only ONE GOD - divine or otherwise.
Deut 6:4 The Schema states “Hear, O Israel: the Lord our God is one Lord.” The word they use is 'echad - one here means a unity of one: ex.1 bunch of grapes versus
yachid - one here means a solitude of one, ex. a single grape by itself. Hence, the Jews knew scripture hinted here that there was only 1 God. God himself clearly and plainly states He KNOWS OF NO OTHER - GODS that is.
Bottom line The Bible does not say TRINITY or Tri unity EXPLICITLY but the hints of it are jumping off the pages IMPLICITLY.
ex. of 11 day = morning, noon, evening, 1 family = father, mother, child
#3
Scripture plainly says “there is no marriage in heaven” according to St. Paul
What is there to NOT understand about this very plain and straightforward scripture.
Jesus is the Bridegroom & the Church - all of us are the BRIDE. Jesus HAS ONLY 1 BRIDE, HE IS FAITHFUL TO THAT BRIDE - the CHURCH, NOT an ADULTERER = WHOLE BASIS FOR MARRIAGE = 1 man & 1 woman. period.
Not: 1 man & 2+ women or 6 women & 3 men or one Father & 2 Daughters or 1 man and 1 animal Where does the fragmentation and the madness end.
These are only 3 thoughts; the LDS & ParkerD have a massive problem reconciling the Bible to their man-made system; I could list many more. Perhaps ParkerD and his cohorts would kindly consider obtaining a copy of the Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC is a brilliant distillation of historic Christianity); would benefit by reading it, then line up what it plainly says against the quite latter-day system.
The next book would be “The Faith of the Early Fathers” by William Jurgens (3 volumes) & REALLY research & get the facts about WHAT REALLY HAPPENED instead of casually dismissing it as “apostasy”. That is sooo easy - many groups simply say the RCC is “apostate” obviously leaving out stacks and stacks of easily obtainable historic evidence for their review. Tragically, gross ignorance is abundant and lack of scholarship is showing.
A college prof of mine once said “Trust the evidence of your senses”
If one is fluent in German, could research The Funk-Bihlmeyer-Schneemelcher, “Die apostolischen Vater” volume 1. Tubingen 1956; “the Vienna Corpus” or the “Berlin Corpus”. Also, Migne’s "Patrologiae cursus completus, series latina (PL) for the Latin or series graeca (PG) for the Greek. Another is Kirsopp Lake “The Apostolic Fathers” in the Loeb Classical Library series (1930)
The first selection mentioned in Jurgens’ volume 1 is “The Didache or Teaching of the Twelve Apostles” circa AD 140 extant in the Codex Hierosolymitanus 1056 (11th century manuscript; The Didache has many earlier parts extant in Latin, Coptic, Ethiopic, Syriac, with complete translation in Georgian & Greek according to Jurgens). There are literally thousands of writings quoted in these sources that survive to this day to indicate essentially Christianity has been preserved INTACT from the early days to present times by God, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit and we believe as the early Christians believe.
(However, Tertullian did go 'round the bend later on.
)
To say otherwise is indefensible.
#1
LDS have a problem reconciling a “properly translated” Bible to their system. Shocking to those who don’t know they equate Jesus Christ to be the brother of Satan. To take the lowly level of an fallen angel, elevate it to the level of the divine is absurd and a lie; The Roman Catholic Church has always asserted that Jesus is God. To be a Christian you must agree that Jesus Christ has a divine nature and is man and neither conflict; that is, Jesus Christ is GOD MADE MAN or the GOD-MAN. Anything less than that is a heresy and Truth is fragmenting. LDS believe Jesus had a good plan, Satan had a bad plan & the council of the Gods agreed to Jesus’ plan is how the man-made story goes.
A few verses to pray over:
the 7 I AM’s by Jesus in the Book of John
Jn 1:1 “… the Word was GOD”
Jn 8:58 “Before Abraham was, I AM”
Jn 20:28 “My Lord and my GOD”
Luke “… my spirit rejoices in GOD my Savior”
Hebrews 1:6 “let all God’s angels WORSHIP Him (Jesus)”
#2
There is only ONE GOD - divine or otherwise.
Deut 6:4 The Schema states “Hear, O Israel: the Lord our God is one Lord.” The word they use is 'echad - one here means a unity of one: ex.1 bunch of grapes versus
yachid - one here means a solitude of one, ex. a single grape by itself. Hence, the Jews knew scripture hinted here that there was only 1 God. God himself clearly and plainly states He KNOWS OF NO OTHER - GODS that is.
Bottom line The Bible does not say TRINITY or Tri unity EXPLICITLY but the hints of it are jumping off the pages IMPLICITLY.
ex. of 11 day = morning, noon, evening, 1 family = father, mother, child
#3
Scripture plainly says “there is no marriage in heaven” according to St. Paul
What is there to NOT understand about this very plain and straightforward scripture.
Jesus is the Bridegroom & the Church - all of us are the BRIDE. Jesus HAS ONLY 1 BRIDE, HE IS FAITHFUL TO THAT BRIDE - the CHURCH, NOT an ADULTERER = WHOLE BASIS FOR MARRIAGE = 1 man & 1 woman. period.
Not: 1 man & 2+ women or 6 women & 3 men or one Father & 2 Daughters or 1 man and 1 animal
Where does the fragmentation and the madness end.These are only 3 thoughts; the LDS & ParkerD have a massive problem reconciling the Bible to their man-made system; I could list many more. Perhaps ParkerD and his cohorts would kindly consider obtaining a copy of the Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC is a brilliant distillation of historic Christianity); would benefit by reading it, then line up what it plainly says against the quite latter-day system.
The next book would be “The Faith of the Early Fathers” by William Jurgens (3 volumes) & REALLY research & get the facts about WHAT REALLY HAPPENED instead of casually dismissing it as “apostasy”. That is sooo easy - many groups simply say the RCC is “apostate” obviously leaving out stacks and stacks of easily obtainable historic evidence for their review. Tragically, gross ignorance is abundant and lack of scholarship is showing.
A college prof of mine once said “Trust the evidence of your senses”
If one is fluent in German, could research The Funk-Bihlmeyer-Schneemelcher, “Die apostolischen Vater” volume 1. Tubingen 1956; “the Vienna Corpus” or the “Berlin Corpus”. Also, Migne’s "Patrologiae cursus completus, series latina (PL) for the Latin or series graeca (PG) for the Greek. Another is Kirsopp Lake “The Apostolic Fathers” in the Loeb Classical Library series (1930)
The first selection mentioned in Jurgens’ volume 1 is “The Didache or Teaching of the Twelve Apostles” circa AD 140 extant in the Codex Hierosolymitanus 1056 (11th century manuscript; The Didache has many earlier parts extant in Latin, Coptic, Ethiopic, Syriac, with complete translation in Georgian & Greek according to Jurgens). There are literally thousands of writings quoted in these sources that survive to this day to indicate essentially Christianity has been preserved INTACT from the early days to present times by God, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit and we believe as the early Christians believe.
(However, Tertullian did go 'round the bend later on.
)To say otherwise is indefensible.
K
KathleenGee
Guest
What is affiliation of smirknoff?
S
smirknoff
Guest
Oye, Pablo, I have not called anyone here racist, nor, to my knowledge, has anyone called me racist. What are you going on about?
Ah yes. That is why we are talking about “Mormons racism” on a thread about “the great apostasy”Yep…when one’s action is called for what it is…the defense mechanishm to cope with it is to accuse**** another…to deflect blame from themselves…since they do not have the intestinal fortitude to accept it.
T
Telstar
Guest
He merely refers to himself as a ‘theist’.
Definition of THEISM: belief in the existence of a god or gods; specifically : belief in the existence of one God viewed as the creative source of the human race and the world who transcends yet is immanent in the world
Thomas Jefferson also claimed to be a ‘theist’. Coincidentally, he is also seen by many Mormons as a ‘saint’, just like many of them see most of the founding fathers that wrote the Constitution of the US (which they revere almost as highly as the BoM, and probably even higher than the Bible, “unless it is properly translated” by them, of course).
Methinks this is just his way of trying to hide the fact that he’s really a Mormon, so it will appear to most of us that he’s just a ‘neutral observer’, when that’s far from the real truth. He certainly seems to use all of their typical buzzwords and phraseology, such as ‘jackmormon’, which is a unique term that only LDS use to refer to Mormons that have ‘apostatized’ and left the church. I have my suspicions about this just being an ‘alt’ ID of someone that’s no longer allowed to post, or wants to hide his true identity so he can attack ‘at will’, with no one the wiser as to who he really is. He also seems to only post in threads that are relevant to the LDS, typically in their defense. If he’s not currently LDS, then he should probably run to the nearest Temple and beg them to let him in.
JMHO
Stephen168
New member
embarrassed Mormon.
P
pablope
Guest
Smirknoff…I apologize, I think I misunderstood your post…I thought you were calling me racist…sorry about that.
S
smirknoff
Guest
I respectfully accept your apology. To admit that one was mistaken takes motors guts than many folks have. I hope that we can continue the discussion in greater clarity and respect.Smirknoff…I apologize, I think I misunderstood your post…I thought you were calling me racist…sorry about that.
—----------------
Thomas Jefferson was sometimes a Deist, which is the only type of theist which I will say categorically that I am not.
I am not “hiding” my religion, Steve and Telstar. I am refusing to tell you what it is, in order to get you to respond to what I say rather that to what you have been told that I believe. Ian order to converse with me without looking foolish, you are going to have to read and think. Does that frustrate you?
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