The Church in the Americas and the Great Apostasy

[Stephen168]

Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego were protected by God and did not die …

Where do they live today?

 

[Stephen168]

How do you know God changes, Parker?

God is a man
Man changes
Therefore God changes

 

[ParkerD]

It is as per God’s will and for His purpose. We do not know what that is, but discern it and submit totally to His will and providence.

How do you know God changes, Parker?..

Pablope,

I don’t seem to be able to have you understand that the statement “God changes” meant just that His will may be different in one case than in another case, or at one particular time than at another particular time, such as you pointed out in the case of Peter.

I realize, of course, that “it is per God’s will and for His purpose”.

My point here is that your beliefs about Peter, about the Christian martyrs, and about Daniel show you believe that God has different purposes in different situations.

And–so do I.

 

[pablope]

Pablope,

I don’t seem to be able to have you understand that the statement “God changes” meant just that His will may be different in one case than in another case, or at one particular time than at another particular time, such as you pointed out in the case of Peter.

I realize, of course, that “it is per God’s will and for His purpose”.

My point here is that your beliefs about Peter, about the Christian martyrs, and about Daniel show you believe that God has different purposes in different situations.

And–so do I.

Parker…I do not think God changes his purpose or his purposes…it has always been the same…what you are perceiving is the way He accomplishes His purpose, or purposes.

 

[rainman10]

Rainman10,

Rather than my answering this particular question about God “changing His mind”, could you re-phrase your question while keeping in mind the very striking example from the Bible of the New Covenant gospel being brought first to the Jews and the House of Israel, and later (when the time was right) to the Gentiles as well as to the House of Israel?

I don’t think it is quite the same situation. Did God ever say “don’t bring the gospel to the Gentiles, they are not worthy because they carry the sin of Cain”?

 

[Telstar]

What I was wanting to understand is how the belief that God “doesn’t change” lines up in your mind, when Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego were protected by God and did not die as we all know; Daniel was in a lion’s den and did not die, as we all know; Elisha was aware of being protected by spiritual forces even though he and the young man were surrounded by an enemy, and they had power given to them and did not die as we all know.

Yet the martyrs you talked about did die, and some actually welcomed being killed, but the question then is, Why did God change and allow them to die instead of protecting or rescuing them, since even Peter was rescued from prison as described in Acts so there is a New Testament precedent for God rescuing true believers?

Parker,

Do you remember when Jesus was preaching to huge crowds of people, how many times He ‘slipped away’ from those that He knew wanted to kill Him, then, for something He said? If He already knew that it was His purpose to die for our sins (which He did), why did He ‘slip away’ and not face them at those times, when they wanted to kill Him? Was he running away from His Father’s purpose in sending Him? Was He just being a coward? Or, was it not the proper time for it to happen, because He hadn’t finished teaching His Apostles all that they needed to know before His death?

 

[smirknoff]

Does it say somewhere in the Bible or in the teachings of the Church Fathers that denying the priesthood to black people is as bad as worshipping idols, or is this a rule we just made up to shame Mormons?

When Paul told slaves to obey their masters, does that mean that the Church actually supports slavery and the forced sex and blood sports that were part and parcel of Roman slavery, or was Paul articulating a policy to reduce persecution of slavery?

Do you think that there might be a difference between a damning mortal sins like idolaty, vs a terrible social ill like slavery?

If owning slaves or racism was as damning as idolatry, then why did the bible never make that clear?

 

[Stephen168]

Does it say somewhere in the Bible or in the teachings of the Church Fathers that denying the priesthood to black people is as bad as worshipping idols, or is this a rule we just made up to shame Mormons?

When Paul told slaves to obey their masters, does that mean that the Church actually supports slavery and the forced sex and blood sports that were part and parcel of Roman slavery, or was Paul articulating a policy to reduce persecution of slavery?

Do you think that there might be a difference between a damning mortal sins like idolaty, vs a terrible social ill like slavery?

If owning slaves or racism was as damning as idolatry, then why did the bible never make that clear?

Are you suggesting there is only one sin and that sin is idolatry?

 

[JHow]

Does it say somewhere in the Bible or in the teachings of the Church Fathers that denying the priesthood to black people is as bad as worshipping idols, or is this a rule we just made up to shame Mormons?

When Paul told slaves to obey their masters, does that mean that the Church actually supports slavery and the forced sex and blood sports that were part and parcel of Roman slavery, or was Paul articulating a policy to reduce persecution of slavery?

Do you think that there might be a difference between a damning mortal sins like idolaty, vs a terrible social ill like slavery?

If owning slaves or racism was as damning as idolatry, then why did the bible never make that clear?

You’re on to something, but I don’t know what it is. How about a thesis statement in there somewhere?

 

[zaffiroborant]

Does it say somewhere in the Bible or in the teachings of the Church Fathers that denying the priesthood to black people is as bad as worshipping idols, or is this a rule we just made up to shame Mormons?

When Paul told slaves to obey their masters, does that mean that the Church actually supports slavery and the forced sex and blood sports that were part and parcel of Roman slavery, or was Paul articulating a policy to reduce persecution of slavery?

Do you think that there might be a difference between a damning mortal sins like idolaty, vs a terrible social ill like slavery?

If owning slaves or racism was as damning as idolatry, then why did the bible never make that clear?

I’d call slavery a mortal sin.

 

[smirknoff]

I’d call slavery a mortal sin.

Then why did you not answer question 4? Or question 2 for that matter?

1. Is Abraham in hell, or did you just not think it through when you said slavery was a mortal sin?
2. Did Paul sin venially or mortally when he told slaves to submit to their masters?
3. Do you know how much of what you eat and use is a product of modern slave labor?

 

[Stephen168]

I’d call slavery a mortal sin.

And so was the racism of Mormonism.

 

[smirknoff]

And so was the racism of Mormonism.

Is that your answer to question 1? That racism is only damning for Mormons? And not for Augustine,who taught the same Ham and Cain racist stuff that some of the Mormons later adopted?

 

[smirknoff]

When Paul told slaves to obey their masters, does that mean that the Church actually supports slavery and the forced sex and blood sports that were part and parcel of Roman slavery, or was Paul articulating a policy to reduce persecution of slavery?

Correction to question 2. I meant persecution of early Christianity.

 

[pablope]

Does it say somewhere in the Bible or in the teachings of the Church Fathers that denying the priesthood to black people is as bad as worshipping idols, or is this a rule we just made up to shame Mormons?

The great commissoin in Matthew 28 was to preach to all nations…irregardless. Where the apostles went, they appointed their successors from the locals.

denying the priesthood to black people is as bad as worshipping idols, or is this a rule we just made up to shame Mormons

 

[pablope]

Is that your answer to question 1? That racism is only damning for Mormons? And not for Augustine,who taught the same Ham and Cain racist stuff that some of the Mormons later adopted?

How do you know the Mormons got the idea from Augustine? Did Joseph Smith read the works of Augustine? Was he familiar with the writings of Augustine? Did JS even know about Augustine?

 

[Stephen168]

Is that your answer to question 1?

No, it was a statement.

 

[Stephen168]

The great commissoin in Matthew 28 was to preach to all nations…irregardless. Where the apostles went, they appointed their successors from the locals.

Which never excluded blacks like the Mormons did.

 

[pablope]

Originally Posted by pablope

The great commissoin in Matthew 28 was to preach to all nations…irregardless. Where the apostles went, they appointed their successors from the locals.

Which never excluded blacks like the Mormons did.

Yes, and we have ECFs from Africa. Wasn’t Augustine from Africa?

 

[coachkfan1]

In regards to slavery, please know that the organized kidnapping and transporting of human cargo for the sole purpose of forced labor is vastly different from Biblical slavery which was largely indebted servitude governed by rules of how slaves were to be treated! The European and American slavery of the recent centuries was a sin! 1 Timothy condemns “menstealers” which is what the American slave traders were.