The Church in the Americas and the Great Apostasy

[Stephen168]

How do you know the Mormons got the idea from Augustine? Did Joseph Smith read the works of Augustine? Was he familiar with the writings of Augustine? Did JS even know about Augustine?

And it seems that only Mormons claim Augustine taught that; with no quotes of course.

 

[Stephen168]

In regards to slavery, please know that the organized kidnapping and transporting of human cargo for the sole purpose of forced labor is vastly different from Biblical slavery which was largely indebted servitude governed by rules of how slaves were to be treated! The European and American slavery of the recent centuries was a sin! 1 Timothy condemns “menstealers” which is what the American slave traders were.

True, slavery based on race is a relatively new idea.

 

[Stephen168]

Yes, and we have ECFs from Africa. Wasn’t Augustine from Africa?

Yes, as well as a second century Pope.

 

[smirknoff]

In regards to slavery, please know that the organized kidnapping and transporting of human cargo for the sole purpose of forced labor is vastly different from Biblical slavery which was largely indebted servitude governed by rules of how slaves were to be treated! The European and American slavery of the recent centuries was a sin! 1 Timothy condemns “menstealers” which is what the American slave traders were.

And per the us constitution, the usa got outto of the african manstealing business before joseph smith was out of diapers. So how do we blame Mormons for a business that was carried out and scripturally rationalized for centuries by Jews, Muslims, and Catholics?

I doubt js read augustine. The ham/slave myth came from the Jewish Midrash, and was commonly believed by Christians of the early 19th century.

To blame Mormons for that myth is an exercise in hypocrisy. (How is that for a thesis statement?)

Steve, google “ham + curse + augustine” and you will find non Mormon sources. Do you really need me to look up the Paul cite on telling slaves to submit to their masters?

 

[smirknoff]

Yes, and we have ECFs from Africa. Wasn’t Augustine from Africa?

Not subsaharan africa. You trying to imply that there has been a black Pope?

Roman era references to africa usually reference what we call Lybia. Tunisia, morocco, Algeria. Not black then. Not black now.

 

[RebeccaJ]

And per the us constitution, the usa got outto of the african manstealing business before joseph smith was out of diapers.

What year was Smith born, and what year was the US constitution amended against slavery?

He was dead some 20 years before the 13th amendment was passed.

So how do we blame Mormons for a business that was carried out and scripturally rationalized for centuries by Jews, Muslims, and Catholics?

Who’s blaming Mormons? Mormons, however, in their 19th century theology described race as a condition that was pre-ordained by God. Brigham Young teaching that it was a divine order of things, that a person born with Black skin was so because they were less valiant in a pre-existent life. (Sort of like reincarnation, sort of.) A station in life as “servant”, as the genteel word used by Young for slavery, was as God designed. This theology existed in Mormonism until 1978.

The Catholic Church has never claimed that slavery was divinely ordered by God.

I doubt js read augustine.

Maybe, maybe not, he did have Catholic theological books in his library, which would no doubt include Augustine.

The ham/slave myth came from the Jewish Midrash, and was commonly believed by Christians of the early 19th century.

Yes, it was, and I agree that is the root of Mormon teaching regarding race. Which is of course, not divine in nature, but was asserted as such by Mormon leaders until the late 20th century.

Also, I’m not so sure it is accurate to say it was a common belief of all Christians.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Do you really need me to look up the Paul cite on telling slaves to submit to their masters?

Paul also teaches that through Jesus Christ we are equal. Free and slave, rich and poor.

Paul was not supporting slavery as divinely ordered, and to read it in that fashion betrays the racial bias of modern racial slavery.

 

[Telstar]

I’m beginning to suspect that someone’s got himself a new forum ID. That way, he can openly post ridiculous arguments and no one will ever even suspect it’s him.

Brilliant Trolling Plan of Revenge:

1. Make a new forum ID
2. claim to be from a ‘neutral’ religious view
3. argue points from the Mormon perspective, but even more aggressively (being ‘incognito’)
4. no one’s the wiser that it’s just him trying to verbally poke all those people that he sees as ‘the enemy’
5. continue playing ‘devil’s advocate’ until the new ID is either suspended or banned for being obnoxious
6. wash/rinse/repete

I could be wrong, but I see many of the typical earmarks of a forum troll, that argues just for the sake of being argumentative and annoying people.

 

[Stephen168]

I’m beginning to suspect that someone’s got himself a new forum ID. That way, he can openly post ridiculous arguments and no one will ever even suspect it’s him.

Brilliant Trolling Plan of Revenge:

1. Make a new forum ID
2. claim to be from a ‘neutral’ religious view
3. argue points from the Mormon perspective, but even more aggressively (being ‘incognito’)
4. no one’s the wiser that it’s just him trying to verbally poke all those people that he sees as ‘the enemy’
5. continue playing ‘devil’s advocate’ until the new ID is either suspended or banned for being obnoxious
6. wash/rinse/repete

I could be wrong, but I see many of the typical earmarks of a forum troll, that argues just for the sake of being argumentative and annoying people.

At this point I’ll agree with 2 & 3

 

[Stephen168]

And per the us constitution, the usa got outto of the african manstealing business before joseph smith was out of diapers. So how do we blame Mormons…

We are only blaming Mormons for teaching racist doctrine; contrary to the teaching of Christ. This proves it is just a 19th century American invention and not a restoration.

 

[zaffiroborant]

I’m beginning to suspect that someone’s got himself a new forum ID. That way, he can openly post ridiculous arguments and no one will ever even suspect it’s him.

Brilliant Trolling Plan of Revenge:

1. Make a new forum ID
2. claim to be from a ‘neutral’ religious view
3. argue points from the Mormon perspective, but even more aggressively (being ‘incognito’)
4. no one’s the wiser that it’s just him trying to verbally poke all those people that he sees as ‘the enemy’
5. continue playing ‘devil’s advocate’ until the new ID is either suspended or banned for being obnoxious
6. wash/rinse/repete

I could be wrong, but I see many of the typical earmarks of a forum troll, that argues just for the sake of being argumentative and annoying people.

I was thinking sockpuppet, just couldn’t decide whose. Rick##### came to mind claimed “agnostic with Catholic spouse” not deist.

 

[smirknoff]

As should be obvious to any reasonable person, when it comes to God or slavery, there is no such thing an “neutral”

In regards to slavery, please know that the organized kidnapping and transporting of human cargo for the sole purpose of forced labor is vastly different from Biblical slavery which was largely indebted servitude governed by rules of how slaves were to be treated! The European and American slavery of the recent centuries was a sin! 1 Timothy condemns “menstealers” which is what the American slave traders were.

Coachman, since you clearly have some grasp of history, would you please explain to Rebecca the difference between the transatlantic menztealing trade, which the USA outlawed in 1800 or 1801, and the actual practicice of slavery, which was not outlawed until the 13th amendment?

 

[smirknoff]

We are only blaming Mormons for teaching racist doctrine; contrary to the teaching of Christ. This proves it is just a 19th century American invention and not a restoration.

A restoration of what?

 

[smirknoff]

What year was Smith born.

[Look it up, or hire a secretary.]

Also, I’m not so sure it is accurate to say it was a common belief of all Christians.

Then don’t say it. No one else has said it. Nothing in this discussion requires such a broad, unfounded, and unlikely assertion. It’s kind of like pointing out that Augustine never specifically said that all of the objects of his pre-chastity affections were honkies. In other words, only vaguely tangential and ultimately, irrelevant.

 

[zaffiroborant]

Then why did you not answer question 4? Or question 2 for that matter?
5. Is Abraham in hell, or did you just not think it through when you said slavery was a mortal sin?

I don’t know who is “in hell”, I don’t believe Abraham is in hell.
Slavery and polygamy are both mortal sins, Abraham committed both, but I don’t believe he is in hell. The trouble is you don’t understand mortal sin.

1. Did Paul sin venially or mortally when he told slaves to submit to their masters?

Neither.

1. Do you know how much of what you eat and use is a product of modern slave labor?

No I don’t, I try to be informed about the products I purchase but I am not aware of the conditions of the producers of every item I buy, though I bet my kids would describe as “slave labor” the produce we eat from our garden.

 

[zaffiroborant]

Then don’t say it. No one else has said it. Nothing in this discussion requires such a broad, unfounded, and unlikely assertion. It’s kind of like pointing out that Augustine never specifically said that all of the objects of his pre-chastity affections were honkies. In other words, only vaguely tangential and ultimately, irrelevant.

You said it here:

And per the us constitution, the usa got outto of the african manstealing business before joseph smith was out of diapers. So how do we blame Mormons for a business that was carried out and scripturally rationalized for centuries by Jews, Muslims, and Catholics?

I doubt js read augustine. The ham/slave myth came from the Jewish Midrash, and was commonly believed by Christians of the early 19th century.

To blame Mormons for that myth is an exercise in hypocrisy. (How is that for a thesis statement?)

Steve, google “ham + curse + augustine” and you will find non Mormon sources. Do you really need me to look up the Paul cite on telling slaves to submit to their masters?

 

[pablope]

Not subsaharan africa. You trying to imply that there has been a black Pope?

Huh??? Where did I imply that? Whether subsaharan or the Roman era africa, they were still africans.

All I implied is that as early as the first or second century, the CC had africans in positions of authority. No racism there.

Roman era references to africa usually reference what we call Lybia. Tunisia, morocco, Algeria. Not black then. Not black now.

 

[pablope]

A restoration of what?

Honestly, you do not know? You are defending mormons, and you do not know their claim of legitimacy…that the mormon church is a restoration of true christianity…just one of such claims…similar to the JWs, the SDAs, the Oneness pentecostals…among others.

 

[smirknoff]

God is a man
Man changes
Therefore God changes

Did Jesus ever change or did he wear swaddling clothes all his life?

Did God ever change His prophetic message or did He command Samuel and Ezekiel to build arks?

God doesn’t change, but if the Bible tells the whole story, God said He was Unity until. At least 400BC, and then some time before 400AD became a Trinity. Does that seem right to you?

 

[smirknoff]

Honestly, you do not know? You are defending mormons, and you do not know their claim of legitimacy…that the mormon church is a restoration of true christianity…just one of such claims…similar to the JWs, the SDAs, the Oneness pentecostals…among others.

Gamaliel did not have to be an expert in Christianity to recognize irrational paranoid bullying when he saw it. Do you need the Acts reference or can you run a search on the name Gamaliel?