The Church in the Americas and the Great Apostasy

[ParkerD]

Pete & Olympus

…

John Taylor 3rd pres of the church says in "History of the Church, vol. 7, pp. 102-3 says:

“He, however, instantly arose, and with a firm, quick step, and a determined expression of countenance, approached the door, and pulling the six-shooter left by Brother Whellock from his pocket, opened the door slightly, and snapped the pistol six successive times; only three of the barrels, however, were discharged. I afterwards understood that two or three were wounded by these discharges, two of whom, I am informed died.”

…
I find the quote “…a determined expression of countenance…” very interesting and insightful.

Pepband Mom,

I have a great, great grandfather who lived in Georgia where he had a small farm in 1876, after having fought in the Civil War and settled afterward near Rome, Georgia. When Latter-day Saint missionaries were in the area to share the message of the restored gospel of Jesus Christ, he heard that they were being threatened and saw that happening, so he invited them to take shelter in his home.

A mob of men came and threatened to kill the missionaries, and my great, great grandfather, though not a Latter-day Saint at the time, told them to go home and that the two young men were guests in his home, “and before you harm them, I’ll harm some of you”. They did leave, but if they hadn’t, then no doubt my great, great grandfather would have been true to his word. I respect him greatly for that.

People who have never experienced a mob, may not have a correct idea in their minds of what that means or how joining mob action robs people of their good judgment as they participate (a violent extension of “group think”).

For Joseph Smith to have desired to protect his brother and his friends, knowing the mob would kill them all with all the hatred they had in their hearts, seems to me to have been the correct thing to do–even if it meant all the naysayers of the world would say the kinds of things your post said.

It is always remarkable to me to think of people thinking someone should just let themselves and their friends and family be killed just to show they were a “martyr” for a cause. That’s a strange way to view the wonderful gift of this life.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Those who are called to martyrdom follow Jesus in death. He could have called down the hosts of heaven to protect Himself, and He could do the same for any who die in His name.

But that is not the calling of a martyr. A martyr faces death with the sure knowledge of Life, in and through Jesus Christ. This in no way reduces the gift of life.

 

[ParkerD]

Those who are called to martyrdom follow Jesus in death. He could have called down the hosts of heaven to protect Himself, and He could do the same for any who die in His name.

But that is not the calling of a martyr. A martyr faces death with the sure knowledge of Life, in and through Jesus Christ. This in no way reduces the gift of life.

RJ,

Elisha showed that the Lord did indeed “send down hosts of heaven” to protect Elisha and the young man with him, so there is a disconnect between the idea that a “martyr” should give up life just to make a “name” for themselves, even if while saying they were going to be with Jesus, and the knowledge that God did indeed protect Elisha and Daniel in their situations and with their level of faith.

I will never understand why Catholics think “martyrs” shouldn’t have tried to protect themselves and their families against the power of unjust mobs.

The Savior’s case where Peter cut off a soldier’s ear and the Savior said that was not the right reaction, was a completely different situation in that the Savior knew the reason He was to die for us all, at the particular time when it was to happen (and not until the timing was right) and knew that the mob-Jews would go along with the mock trial and the horrible savagery of what the Sanhedrin considered justice.

I don’t find a compelling case in the New Testament for martyrs to have thought they needed to die and not attempt to protect themselves and their families. They weren’t the Savior, and had no such mission.

 

[RebeccaJ]

RJ,

Elisha showed that the Lord did indeed “send down hosts of heaven” to protect Elisha and the young man with him, so there is a disconnect between the idea that a “martyr” should give up life just to make a “name” for themselves, even if while saying they were going to be with Jesus, and the knowledge that God did indeed protect Elisha and Daniel in their situations and with their level of faith.

You still aren’t understanding. God most certainly will protect people, and does. Martyrdom is a calling, not an accident. If you believe God is the author of your life, and every day that you live, then so it must be that God allows people to be placed in circumstances where the choice is: renounce what you believe or die. God is with those who die for Him, He has not abandoned them!

I will never understand why Catholics think “martyrs” shouldn’t have tried to protect themselves and their families against the power of unjust mobs.

Pray for your enemies, and those who persecute you. That is our understanding of both a person who is a Christian and/or a martyr.

No doubt, most people will fight to the death, including most Catholics. Catholic teaching is, it is not a sin to defend oneself or another. Martyrs are not most people. As I have said, it is a calling. I think you understand callings.

Joseph Smith certainly was murdered, but he was not called to be a martyr. How do we know? Because he didn’t die with prayers on his lips for his enemies, praying that God forgives them. He died trying to kill them.

The Savior’s case where Peter cut off a soldier’s ear and the Savior said that was not the right reaction, was a completely different situation in that the Savior knew the reason He was to die for us all, at the particular time when it was to happen (and not until the timing was right) and knew that the mob-Jews would go along with the mock trial and the horrible savagery of what the Sanhedrin considered justice.

I don’t find a compelling case in the New Testament for martyrs to have thought they needed to die and not attempt to protect themselves and their families. They weren’t the Savior, and had no such mission.

No ons thinks martyrs are our saviors, and I never said that. I don’t know of any martyr who wanted to be a martyr. Most who were or are under persecution for their faith avoid their persecutors, for the very fact they want to stay alive. It is circumstances that brought them to where they were, and where faced with a decision, to act as a disciple of Jesus Christ, or not.

Christians are called to be witness for Christ, in life and in death. Jesus taught us to pray for our enemies and those that persecute us. He never taught us to kill them.

John 15

“If the world hates you, realize that it hated me first.

If you belonged to the world, the world would love its own; but because you do not belong to the world, and I have chosen you out of the world, the world hates you.

Remember the word I spoke to you, ‘No slave is greater than his master.’ If they persecuted me, they will also persecute you. If they kept my word, they will also keep yours.

And they will do all these things to you on account of my name, because they do not know the one who sent me.

 

[Telstar]

I’m sorry Mrs. Telstar.

LOL… No problem. I get that a lot on forums because my forum names are usually fairly ‘neutral’, so I’m pretty used to it by now.

What’s even funnier is when people call on the phone and sometimes say, “Mr. Telstar?”, when I answer it. I just say, “Excuse me?”. Then they get all apologetic when I tell them I’m his wife.

But, I do have a very low contralto voice (I’ve even sung the tenor parts in choir when there weren’t enough guys), so if they don’t know me, it’s easy to mistake my voice for a guy’s, too. It really does happen a lot. LOL

 

[Cowboy_Pete]

St. Joan was a martyr, was she not? And yet she also jumped out of a window to try to escape.

 

[Cowboy_Pete]

When Joseph Smith jumped out the window (or fell; he may simply have been knocked out the window by a bullet), he was jumping right in the middle of a group of two hundred armed men that wanted to kill him. So if he jumped, it’s clear that he didn’t do it to save his own life, but the lives of the persons who were in the room with him. The mob was after Joseph, and after he was dead, they stopped trying to shoot their way into the room. So by jumping or falling out of the room, Joseph saved the lives of two of his friends, Willard Richards and John Taylor.

I’m not trying to get you to see him as a martyr, just responding to the question and explaining why we see him as a martyr.

 

[Stephen168]

I really do know how to read, honest!
I looked on the internet to see if the book I referenced in #309 is still available. Amazon has 58 new and used copies. It is a newer edition than the one I read (about ten years ago). The author is Justo L. Gonzalez which I miss-spelled in my reference. I really don’t think the book will be offensive to Catholics.

I found The Story of Christianity by Justo Gonzalez online and you are right, it is not offensive.
Here are a few quotes from the pages you referenced **“But on closer scrutiny what is surprising is not that theological debate became entangled in political intrigues, but rather that in the midst of such unfavorable circumstances the church still found the strength and wisdom to reject those views that threatened the core of the Christian message.” **

and another “The mood of the majority had now changed. Whereas earlier they hoped to deal with issues at stake through negotiation and compromise, without condemning any doctrine, now they were convinced that they had to reject Arianism in the clearest way possible.”

and after telling us about the influence Eusebius of Nicomedia had over Constantine he writes “Let it suffice to say the Eusebius of Nicomedia and his followers managed to have Athanasius exiled by order of Constantine.” The author continues with how the Arian Emperors through Arian Bishops forced Arianism on their subjects. As Soren1 had said the Arians held political sway over the empire.

I read James E. Talmage’s ‘Great Apostasy.’ In his book, Talmage quotes Eusebius of Caesarea so much that you would believe Eusebius’ book ‘Ecclesiastical History’ was about the great apostasy. In fact, a Mormon has made that claim on this forum. But ‘Ecclesiastical History’ is not about apostasy at all. Eusebius writes about heresy and bad people which is what Mormons cherry pick from the book. What the book really tells us to quote Eusebius:

“For by her activity the machinations of her foes were promptly shown up and extinguished, though one after another heresies were invented, the earlier ones constantly passing away and disappearing, in different ways at different times, into forms of every shape and character. But the splendor of the Catholic and one true Church, always remaining the same and unchanged, grew steadily in greatness and strength,” Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History Book IV, Chapter 7.

I’ve seen Mormons cherry pick the early church fathers to try and prove Mormon beliefs were held by the early church, but when you read the full document, it is not so. We’ve even seen Mormons cherry pick the Catechism of the Catholic Church in an attempt to tell Catholics what we believe and how it is the same thing Mormons believe.

The history of the Nicean Council is was it is and not what the Mormon myth thinks it is; I was confident that Justo Gonzalez would not try to change history and he did not. It is clear that Mormons have been cherry picking Justo Gonzalez, too

 

[RebeccaJ]

When Joseph Smith jumped out the window (or fell; he may simply have been knocked out the window by a bullet), he was jumping right in the middle of a group of two hundred armed men that wanted to kill him. So if he jumped, it’s clear that he didn’t do it to save his own life, but the lives of the persons who were in the room with him. The mob was after Joseph, and after he was dead, they stopped trying to shoot their way into the room. So by jumping or falling out of the room, Joseph saved the lives of two of his friends, Willard Richards and John Taylor.

I’m not trying to get you to see him as a martyr, just responding to the question and explaining why we see him as a martyr.

Perhaps he was a martyr for his friends, but when Catholics speak of our martyrs, we mean a person who is a martyr for Jesus Christ.

Joan of Arc was burned at the stake, that is how she died, not jumping out of window.

 

[You]

1843 revelation
On July 12, 1843, Joseph Smith is said to have received a revelation that is much more widely accepted by historians. The revelation was supposedly dictated by Smith to his scribe William Clayton, and was shared with Emma Smith that day. Clayton wrote that day in his journal:
“ Wednesday 12th This A.M, I wrote a Revelation consisting of 10 pages on the order of the priesthood, showing the designs in Moses, Abraham, David and Solomon having many wives & concubines &c. After it was wrote Prests. Joseph & Hyrum presented it and read it to [Emma] who said she did not believe a word of it and appeared very rebellious. [Joseph]…appears much troubled about [Emma][52][unreliable source?] ”
In the text of the revelation,[53] Christ commands the practice of polygamy or plural marriage in a “new and an everlasting covenant” and declares that anyone who rejects the new practices will suffer damnation and will not “be permitted to enter into my glory.”[54] The 1843 revelation also states that the first wife’s consent should be sought before a man married another wife, but also declares that Christ will “destroy” the first wife if she does not consent to the plural marriage, and that the husband is exempt from asking his wife’s consent in the future.[55]
The revelation states that plural wives “are given unto him to multiply and replenish the earth, according to my commandment, and to fulfill the promise which was given by my Father before the foundation of the world, and for their exaltation in the eternal worlds, that they may bear the souls of men.”[56]

This is terrible stuff; threatening your wife with revelations from heaven that she must accept his concubines and new wives or else she will go to hell. Its enough to do anyones head in.

 

[Pepband_Mom]

Stephen168 You’re absolutely right about the HOOK.

Man-made groups use the HOOK that the RCC has fallen away & is the Great Harlot & PROP up their attacks with “GOD’S” pronouncements & “cherry picking”. The theological & biblical illiterate are ripe pickin’s & it’s soooo convenient to make false, blanket claims about the RCC - People do not do their research, especially C & E’s, “lite” Catholics; tragically fall victim to often vicious theologically challenged claims.

Critical to RESEARCH. Ex. The Faith of the Early Fathers, 3 volume series by William A. Jurgens is phenomenal; 1000’s of writings extant from the Didache (80 AD) to 9th century in many different languages that absolutely torpedo often promulgated astonishingly silly claims.

LDS Apostle Orson Pratt in his “Pamphlets by Orson Pratt” (n.p.:n.d.) on p.112: “The gates of hell have prevailed and will continue to prevail over Catholic Mother of Harlots, and over all her Protestant Daughters;…the apostate Catholic church, with all her popes and bishops, together with all her harlot daughters shall be hurled down to hell…”

Sadly, this contradicts Jesus’ words: “The gates of hell shall not prevail…”
Matt 16:18, Luke 10:16, Matt 28:18-20

3rd Pres. John Taylor in “Journal of Discoveries”, (by Brigham Young, President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, His Two Counsellors, the Twelve Apostles, and Others. 26 vols. Liverpool; 1854-86. Photoreprint. Los Angeles, Calif.: General, 1961.) vol. 6, p. 163: “…we are the only people that know how to save our progenitors, how to save ourselves, and how to save our posterity in the celestial kingdom of God;…we in fact are the saviours of the world…”

It would seem the Messiah complex has run amok. (See Rev 21:8)

10th Pres. Joseph Fielding Smith boasts in Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, p.236: that Mormons “are, notwithstanding our weaknesses, the best people in the world. I do not say this boastingly, for I believe that this truth is evident to all who are willing to observe for themselves. We are morally clean, in every way equal, and in many ways superior to any other people”.

Universally we ALL must admit: “I am a sinner”; where does the Bible say that forgiven sinners would evolve into godhood? Did the Jewish people, the chosen ones of God, know about that zinger, let alone the rest of “fallen” Christendom?

In the “History of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints” (Introduction and notes by B.H. Roberts. 6 volumes, Salt Lake City: Deseret, 1951) p.XL: “Nothing less than a complete apostasy from the Christian religion would warrant the establishment of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.”

This is in direct opposition to the PROMISES of Jesus Christ Jn 16:7-8, Luke 10:16. Apparently, to LDS ALL Churches are (completely) apostate; LDS have painted themselves into a very tight corner with NO wiggle room. Numerous claims are strewn about in their (early) literature.

History of the Church, vol. 7, p. 287; Brigham Young: “Every spirit that confesses that Joseph Smith is a Prophet, that he lived and died a Prophet and that the Book of Mormon is true, is of God, and every spirit that does not is of anti-Christ.” All or nothing here.

RCC always has the big red bullseye in the AC arena. If every Pope is THE anti-Christ, how can that be? The Anti-Christ is only ONE person according to the Bible, not every elected Pope.

I find certain 1830 Book of Mormon quotes very interesting! (See Mosiah 15:1,2,5 and Ether 3:14). Wonder if Deseret offers that edition for purchase?

 

[Cowboy_Pete]

Perhaps he was a martyr for his friends, but when Catholics speak of our martyrs.

Like I said, Joseph Smtih is a Mormon Martyr, and I’ve never seen any mormon trying to push him as a Catholic Martyr.

OTOH, My father, an LDS bishop, has taught me from a young age, not LDS theology but my own family belief, that St. Joan was a martyr and a prophetess, and a Christian whose life I should study and follow.

 

[pablope]

Pepband Mom,

People who have never experienced a mob, may not have a correct idea in their minds of what that means or how joining mob action robs people of their good judgment as they participate (a violent extension of “group think”).

 

[pablope]

RJ,

I will never understand why Catholics think “martyrs” shouldn’t have tried to protect themselves and their families against the power of unjust mobs.

 

[pablope]

When Joseph Smith jumped out the window (or fell; he may simply have been knocked out the window by a bullet), he was jumping right in the middle of a group of two hundred armed men that wanted to kill him. So if he jumped, it’s clear that he didn’t do it to save his own life, but the lives of the persons who were in the room with him. The mob was after Joseph, and after he was dead, they stopped trying to shoot their way into the room. So by jumping or falling out of the room, Joseph saved the lives of two of his friends, Willard Richards and John Taylor.

I’m not trying to get you to see him as a martyr, just responding to the question and explaining why we see him as a martyr.

Well, if he was trying to save the lives of those in the same room with him, why did he start shooting? Shooting would have provoked a response…shooting from the other side, isn’t it?

He just endangered the lives of his friends…not save them.

And why did JS not just surrender, tell the mob…he surrenders, and to spare his friends…and do with him as they please?

 

[pablope]

Like I said, Joseph Smtih is a Mormon Martyr, and I’ve never seen any mormon trying to push him as a Catholic Martyr.

.

And it looks like the Mormons have their own defition of a Mormon Martyr, or what a martyr should be…so care to explain further?

 

[RebeccaJ]

Like I said, Joseph Smtih is a Mormon Martyr, and I’ve never seen any mormon trying to push him as a Catholic Martyr.

A Christian martyr is what I gave the definition of…one who dies for Christ.

OTOH, My father, an LDS bishop, has taught me from a young age, not LDS theology but my own family belief, that St. Joan was a martyr and a prophetess, and a Christian whose life I should study and follow.

Prophecy is a gift of the Holy Spirit. There are many Catholics who have shown to have the gift of prophecy. For example, in one of the Mormon threads that is active, someone pointed out Humanae Vitae as a prophetic encyclical of Pope Paul VI.

 

[Cowboy_Pete]

And it looks like the Mormons have their own defition of a Mormon Martyr

No. We’re simply grateful to those that died defending our rights, lives, and interests. You Catholics recognize that ingratitude is sin, do you not? if “martyr” is the wrong word for me to express my gratitude for what Joseph Smith did for me, then may God forgive me for incorrect usage in the English language. Which IIRC is not a sin.

 

[ParkerD]

Actually Parker…if you care to read the lives of Christian martyrs…they prayed for the forgiveness of the unjust mobs…or their executioners…that their actions not be taken against them…like Jesus words on the cross.

Quote:
I don’t find a compelling case in the New Testament for martyrs to have thought they needed to die and not attempt to protect themselves and their families. They weren’t the Savior, and had no such mission.

Pablope,

Stephen was testifying before his death, acting as a seventy who had been called to so testify, of the apostasy in Israel, reminding the high priest along with the Sanhedrin,

“Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.” (Acts 7:51)

He testified of seeing “the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.”

He was stoned by a mob of the Jews, and I think there is evidence in his testimony to the Sanhedrin and the high priest that he knew it was those leaders who had the responsibility to have taught and to be teaching the Jewish people in such a way that the Holy Ghost would be available to them through having listening ears and a listening heart. This those leaders did not do.

So Stephen’s words “Lord, lay not this sin to their charge” was about the Jewish mob, who at that point were leaderless as they stoned him, and were as “sheep having no shepherd”. The sin was on the heads of the Jewish leaders who were teaching in hypocrisy and with hypocrisy, and who let the mob do the stoning of Stephen.

I would say that Stephen saw the correct understanding of the Godhead and gave testimony of that correct understanding just before he was stoned, so his testimony was indeed sealed with his blood, and that testimony is in force still through the account we have in Acts 7.

Some in the mob who killed Joseph Smith were actually religious leaders of other churches, so their case was much different than the Jewish mob, and since Joseph knew that they were committing murder in a way that was shedding innocent blood along with acting in lawlessness, it would have been going against everything he knew about the consequences of sin for him to have asked that they be forgiven during their treachery.

 

[mtolympus]

I found The Story of Christianity by Justo Gonzalez online and you are right, it is not offensive.

Thank you!

Here are a few quotes from the pages you referenced **“But on closer scrutiny what is surprising is not that theological debate became entangled in political intrigues, but rather that in the midst of such unfavorable circumstances the church still found the strength and wisdom to reject those views that threatened the core of the Christian message.” **

Yes, they did reject Arianism!

and another “The mood of the majority had now changed. Whereas earlier they hoped to deal with issues at stake through negotiation and compromise, without condemning any doctrine, now they were convinced that they had to reject Arianism in the clearest way possible.”

Yes, to do so Constantine suggested that the word homoousios which translated means “of the same substance,” be included in the creed.

and after telling us about the influence Eusebius of Nicomedia had over Constantine he writes “Let it suffice to say the Eusebius of Nicomedia and his followers managed to have Athanasius exiled by order of Constantine.” The author continues with how the Arian Emperors through Arian Bishops forced Arianism on their subjects. As Soren1 had said the Arians held political sway over the empire.

Yes, this happened after the council and is very interesting. However, Constantine did banish the bishops from their cities if they didn’t sign the creed.

I read James E. Talmage’s ‘Great Apostasy.’ In his book, Talmage quotes Eusebius of Caesarea so much that you would believe Eusebius’ book ‘Ecclesiastical History’ was about the great apostasy. In fact, a Mormon has made that claim on this forum. But ‘Ecclesiastical History’ is not about apostasy at all. Eusebius writes about heresy and bad people which is what Mormons cherry pick from the book. What the book really tells us to quote Eusebius:

“For by her activity the machinations of her foes were promptly shown up and extinguished, though one after another heresies were invented, the earlier ones constantly passing away and disappearing, in different ways at different times, into forms of every shape and character. But the splendor of the Catholic and one true Church, always remaining the same and unchanged, grew steadily in greatness and strength,” Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History Book IV, Chapter 7.

Absolutely, Eusebius was a Catholic Bishop. I wouldn’t trust his writing if he didn’t believe this!

I’ve seen Mormons cherry pick the early church fathers to try and prove Mormon beliefs were held by the early church, but when you read the full document, it is not so. We’ve even seen Mormons cherry pick the Catechism of the Catholic Church in an attempt to tell Catholics what we believe and how it is the same thing Mormons believe.

Isn’t that like the pot calling the kettle black? You are clearly cherry picking what you want to point out.

The history of the Nicean Council is was it is and not what the Mormon myth thinks it is; I was confident that Justo Gonzalez would not try to change history and he did not.

I share your confidence in Justo Gonzalez, (your welcome!) I hope every Latter-day Saint and every Catholic will read his book for themselves.

It is clear that Mormons have been cherry picking Justo Gonzalez, too

This is not correct. I am the only Mormon I know who has quoted Justo Gonzalez.