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CopticChristian
Guest
My experience with someone I know that is Mormon was on the day of JS death. I believe that it was 06/27/11 that out of respect I asked this friend if this was a special day. He responded kindly and briefly. He said no. This was no celebratory day. He was shot. He is not considered to be a martyr. He is considered to be a Prophet. The conversation ended pleasantly and I learned something.
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mtolympus
Guest
The actual date was 6/27/44.
Thanks for your words of Christian love and resect. 
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mtolympus
Guest
The actual date was 06/27/44.
Thanks for your words of Christian love and respect.
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ParkerD
Guest
Pablope,
First, please understand that I don’t care a whit about how you view the situation of the planned and pre-meditated murder of Joseph Smith by a mob, or his reaction to that mob violence.
The mob who stoned Stephen thought they were living their religion, which is why they chose the act of stoning him as the law of Moses had taught them to do. They also did the stoning outside of the city, and although Saul stood by that does not show that the Sanhedrin had followed the mob outside of the city and participated in the stoning. (Acts 7:58)
The mob who committed the pre-meditated murder of Joseph Smith, knew in their hearts that they weren’t living the religious teachings they had heard and had repeated with their mouths, some of them as religious leaders. So their religion was a sham in how they lived their lives.
I guess I can see how someone with only the New Testament to guide them in how to view defending oneself and one’s family and friends, could think they need to be completely pacifistic and to show they “love their enemies” by not defending themselves and by forgiving any act of treachery committed by someone else–but Joseph Smith had other teachings to refer to which he knew had come from God and which he knew to be true. Those teachings, in the Book of Mormon and also as revealed to him and explained in the Doctrine and Covenants, taught that if an enemy was guilty of the “third offense” and had been forgiven of the “first offense” and the “second offense” against an individual or a group or a nation, then there could be physical defense (not with personal hatred or vengeance, which is a far cry from defending oneself against a group with murder on their minds).
So Joseph Smith was living by what he had taught others, and would have been a hypocrite if he had not fought back in some way, and if he had merely said “I forgive you this sin”. He had a different standard than you have, since he had more than the New Testament to go by.
So I would say that we have a disconnect in that the example you follow of being pacifistic when threatened is not an example I need to feel obligated to follow, if I have tried to persuade an enemy by peaceful means at earlier times and they have returned for a third time (which this was greater than the third time for this mob group) with the evident intent to commit murder. I don’t need to feel forgiving of them, at all–God can do that, of course, but I don’t need to. I can feel completely justified in defending my family against that kind of murderous action, and I don’t need to feel forgiving toward such a group of people, at all. Nor do I need to feel hypocritical by feeling like I could take actions to defend, and I don’t need to feel hypocritical that I have a son who defended my country and my and other people’s freedom in the military.
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mtolympus
Guest
Joseph Smith was a prophet of the Lord. Two or three days before he died, “Joseph went to Carthage to deliver himself up to the pretended requirements of the law.” These are the words he uttered at that time:
“I am going like a lamb to the slaughter; but I am as calm as a summer morning; I have a conscience void of offense towards God, and towards all men. I shall die innocent, and it shall yet be said of me – he was murdered in cold blood.”
I would never expect or try to persuade Catholics that Joseph Smith was a martyr. This entirely depends on wherther you believe in the cause for which he lived and died.
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Cowboy_Pete
Guest
You’re right. We don’t focus on JS as a martyr, and to us the word “martyr” doesn’t have the powerful religious connotation that it has for you. In my life I’ve probably seen more non-LDS people talking about Mormons believing that JS was a martyr, than actual LDS people talking about him being a martyr.
Most LDS folks don’t even know that JS died on June 27, let alone commemorating the day when it came up. If someone even proposed having a special commemorative day about it, folks would be uncomfortable with the idea, saying that would be like making an Easter for Joseph Smith, which we would see as idolatrous.
What we mean by “JS was a martyr” is that he was murdered, wrongfully, for what he believed in.
[the next bit does not address CopticChristian, but generally to the topic]
It does kind of astonish me that we can have a story where two hundred people paint their faces black, and storm into a building with specific intent of murdering a man, and then dismiss that as “died in a gunfight.” That construction seems profoundly malicious, more in the spirit of kicking over gravestones and defacing graveyards than actually saying anything meaningful about history. That’s like taking the incident at the temple, and saying that Jesus was executed for brawling. Yes, you can make the argument technically, but everyone’s just a little bit less intelligent for having read it.
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NewSeeker
Guest
I can definitely understand the sentiment given the assassination, but hearing my boys singing Praise to the Man in primary always gives me the willies, not because there’s anything inherently wrong with revering a martyr (there isn’t), but because my boys are singing the praises of Joseph Smith, who doesn’t merit reverence or veneration. I’d rather they venerated the Mother of God.
**Praise to the Man
Praise to the man who communed with Jehovah!
Jesus annointed that Prophet and Seer.
Blessed to open the last dispensation,
Kings shall extol him, and nations revere.
Chorus
Hail to the Prophet, ascended to heaven!
Traitors and tyrants now fight him in vain.
Mingling with Gods, he can plan for his brethren;
Death cannot conquer the hero again.
Praise to his mem’ry, he died as a martyr;
Honored and blest be his ever great name!
Long shall his blood, which was shed by assasins,
Plead unto heav’n while the earth lauds his fame.
Chorus
Great is his glory and endless his priesthood.
Ever and ever the keys he will hold.
Faithful and true he will enter his kingdom,
Crowned in the midst of the prophets of old.
Chorus
Sacrifice brings forth the blessings of heaven;
Earth must atone for the blood of that man.
Wake up the world for the conflict of justice.
Millions shall know ‘Brother Joseph’ again.
Chorus **
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catholic-rcia
Guest
Encouraged by my wife and friends and one LDS women I have just started a blog about my experiences here in Northern Utah. Baptized Catholic 13 years ago I have had countless experiences with the LDS. One that happens often and really hits home is the LDS thinking that we as Catholics focus more on the death of Jesus than His Glorious resurrection. How do Mormons do it?
My priest who was born and raised in Utah once said that they distance themselves from the suffering Christ. They want the joy and do not understand the importance of the pain. This is where the Cross stands tall in our Catholic Church. We know we are not just sinners, rather helpless sinners. For us this is where Christ becomes front and center. This is is where I have discovered the peace that only Christ can bring. Its what other Mormons discover as well here in Northern Utah when they are able to drop the walls around them and honestly inquire. I hope the LDS read my first two blogs. Its for you. Both were printed in the local newspaper. No comments here, but the notes on my own door have been numerous.
patheos.com/community/chooseyourcross/
www.chooseyourcross.com
My priest who was born and raised in Utah once said that they distance themselves from the suffering Christ. They want the joy and do not understand the importance of the pain. This is where the Cross stands tall in our Catholic Church. We know we are not just sinners, rather helpless sinners. For us this is where Christ becomes front and center. This is is where I have discovered the peace that only Christ can bring. Its what other Mormons discover as well here in Northern Utah when they are able to drop the walls around them and honestly inquire. I hope the LDS read my first two blogs. Its for you. Both were printed in the local newspaper. No comments here, but the notes on my own door have been numerous.
patheos.com/community/chooseyourcross/
www.chooseyourcross.com
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Cowboy_Pete
Guest
You know, one really can’t be too careful to protect against idolatry. Hearing what you said, I think we really should change those lines “earth must atone for the blood of that man.” What the heck is that supposed to mean?
I also agree with you that we could use a few hymns about Mary. But wouldn’t Catholics be offended if we appropriated a few of yours?
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catholic-rcia
Guest
I am all for that, as Scriptures state “All generations shall call her Blessed”
Here is my pick:
JACKIE EVANCHO AVE MARIA TOP FOUR AMERICAS GOT TALENT.mp4-sep-14-2010 ** **
Code:
[www.youtube.com/watch?v=iiM9QVdJyVQ
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catholic-rcia
Guest
Offended? Not at all, as long as they are Catholic. There is a question for you at the end of this.
**Our Blessed Mother
In Scripture**
CCC 484
Code:
From [www.utahmission.com](www.utahmission.com)**When Jesus saw his mother standing there beside the disciple he loved, he said to her, “Woman, he is your son.” And he said to this disciple, “She is your mother.” And from then on this disciple took her into his home. **
The God of Israel is Jesus’ Father (Matt. 11:27), while Mary became Jesus’ human mother (Luke 1:43). This is why the Catholic Church calls Mary the “Mother of God” (CCC 495) since she is the mother of the second divine Person, God the Son. Mary is not a “Mother god” since she is only human - a creature of God. She is not the feminine side of God. Nor is she the mother of the Persons: God the Father or God the Holy Spirit. Jesus was not ashamed of claiming the God of Israel as His Father. He was accused of blasphemy and eventually died for this claim (John 5:18; 19: 7-8).
At the foot of the Cross there were his mother and the disciple John. Jesus knew that Mary was not the mother of John. And Jesus was not telling a lie from the Cross when he proclaimed Mary the mother of the disciple, and the disciple the son of his mother… on the contrary, Jesus was talking about a glorious truth: From the Cross, Jesus was giving us his Mother, to be our Mother. We were all represented at the foot of the Cross in the “disciple” on that day and beyond.
“The Mother of God!” Is there a special place in your heart for Mary?
For Motherhood that God Possesses? Where all Motherhood comes? She gave birth to Jesus, our Lord and Our God. She of all women was chosen. She tended to His earliest needs. The bond was pure love from God through Mary.
In His book Mary and Your Everyday Life, theologian Bernard Haring says: "The Church cannot come to a full understanding of union with Christ and service to the gospel without a profound love and knowledge of Mary, the Mother of our Lord and ourselves, " As Vatican II puts it: “At the message of the angel, the Virgin Mary received the Word of God in her heart and in her body, and gave life to the world. Hence, she is acknowledged and honored (Note# not to be worshiped) as being truly the Mother of God and Mother of the Redeemer” (The Church,53)
Mary is a tribute to all motherhood. The importance of a Mother to her child is a bond like none other. Jesus’s bond to our Church can be seen in Mary. Eve said “no” to Gods will and brought forth death for the whole of the human race. Mary on the other hand said “Yes” to Gods will and brought forth life for the whole of the human race.
Mary represents the New Eve. Mary…our mother, who saw her own Son die for the rest of her children, is waiting and helping in the preparation of building us a new home in heaven.
(Mt 1:23): “Behold the virgin shall be with child and bear a son. And they shall name Him Emanuel,” Which translated means “God is with us.”
(Luke 1:43) Elizabeth calls her “Mother of my Lord.” In the NT, “Lord” refers only to God.
(Luke 1:35) “the child to be born will be called holy, the Son of God.”
The angel calls her “full of grace,” and one who has “found favor with God” (Lk 1:28, 30 RSVCE); Elisabeth, filled with the Holy Spirit calls her “blessed among women” and Mary herself declares that “all generations shall call me blessed”
In following Scripture, like Cupids arrow through our hearts, we will always love her and call Mary Blessed.
She has a very special home in our hearts, we along with the Saints and Mother Mary are all connected to the one Spirit, to the One Body of Christ …the Vine.
**Who is Mary in your life? **
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Cowboy_Pete
Guest
Mary is the mother of the son of God.
And the son of God being part of the Godhead, it is proper as well to call her the Mother of God.
It would make be glad to see the Mormon Tabernacle choir singing some of your beautiful hymns about Mary. I was in a student choir at BYU once, with Max Wiberg our choir director, and we sang one of your Mary hymns. I wish I remembered which one; it was a long time ago.
And the son of God being part of the Godhead, it is proper as well to call her the Mother of God.
It would make be glad to see the Mormon Tabernacle choir singing some of your beautiful hymns about Mary. I was in a student choir at BYU once, with Max Wiberg our choir director, and we sang one of your Mary hymns. I wish I remembered which one; it was a long time ago.
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Cowboy_Pete
Guest
I’ve also heard some mormons say this and I agree that it is nonsense. It’s also clearly contradicted by LDS apostles (most notably the sermons of Apostle Niel Maxwell) and by the Book of Mormon itself which talks about the importance of contemplating Christ’s sufferings.
Even though there’s a mild directive in the LDS church to avoid R rated movies, I have yet to meet any Mormon who thought that applied to “Passion of the Christ,” nor have I heard any mormon speak ill of that movie. My family owns a copy, and we view it every Easter. I’ve defended the value of that show with even more passion than I’ve defended the LDS work for the dead. I can link you to other forums where I’ve defended Catholism with no less conviction than anything that I’ve said on this forum.
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catholic-rcia
Guest
Do you know how Catholics would focus on Christ’s Passion throughout the year? Have you given this much thought? The Passion is a good movie and Easter is the time to watch. A day or so before would be the best time in preparation for the Celebration of His glorious resurection.
I would like to have some of those links.
God Bless
Rich
www.utahmission.com
“To the world the cross looks like hardship and pain, but to those of us who believe, it is a fortress against the night and an oasis against the heat. The cross bears momentary death only to reward us with eternal life. It robs us of earthly things only to compensate us with things from heaven itself. It instructs us in humility in order that we too might be exalted like the Lord our Savior.
All of the world’s wisdom has stood in opposition to the cross, and yet here we are. All of the world’s wisdom sees the cross as a sign of defeat and failure, and yet here are. All of the world’s wisdom tells us that the cross is not the way, that we must be strong and independent, and yet here we are, bending down, as it were, to kiss the holy cross.
Do not think, my brothers and sisters, that the world can be right. If you believe that acceptance of the cross or the practice of humility is a sign of weakness and failure, then you do not know the truth. For only cowards rely on brute strength, and only weaklings prey on the vulnerable. The cross is the very fulcrum which has turned the world upside down – where once there was evil sitting on the throne, now there is love. “ Read this Homily in its entirety here:
dzehnle.blogspot.com/2008/09/homily-exaltation-of-holy-cross.html
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RebeccaJ
Guest
Not long ago (within a year I think) Cardinal Francis George spoke at BYU. The Mormons here were kind of nuts over him, like he is a celebrity or something. Anyway, he spoke to a large group of BYU students, but before he spoke, he invited everyone there to pray the Our Father with him. It was quite something, to watch this video of all these Mormon praying the Our Father with a Catholic Cardinal.
The interesting thing I noticed was a young woman near the front, who started to cross herself (as we do when we pray), and half way through the sign of the cross put her hands down like she remembered she was either Mormon, or among Mormons.
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Cowboy_Pete
Guest
Hehe. I’ve never been a Catholic, and never crossed myself while living in Catholic countries, but somehow it sunk in, and I find myself crossing myself from time to time. I’ll be honest that I’d be more comfortable if there were more crosses in LDS churches.
For symbols of Christianity, mormons are probably most confortable with the picture of the partially opened empty tomb. IIRC Catholics like that one too, don’t you?
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RebeccaJ
Guest
I wasn’t trying to beat up on Mormons for not making the sign of the cross.
I had to think on the empty tomb motif…I can’t think of any that I’ve seen where it’s just an empty tomb, there is always someone depicted outside the tomb. The angel, all the Marys or just Mary Magdalene and/or Jesus/the gardener.
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
But then, I never knew cooking associated to Holy Days until I became Catholic. Things like, “Resurrection Roles”.
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catholic-rcia
Guest
Yes, we have many paintings of the tomb. To be comfortable is good, but can you see how being a bit uncomfortable might help as well on your spiritual journey? The Cross and the empty tomb go together as one. Like Christmas, His Passion and Death to Easter / Resurrection at every Mass said every two minutes somewhere around the world 24/7.
What do you think about when you make the sign of the Cross? Curious…
I was asked by my Priest to make a large cross for what we call the rite of acceptance. Ever since then I have been making Crosses and Crucifixes. .
www.chooseyourcross.com
When I made my first Crucifix I did not think much about what was about to take place. Its just art, but art of a very special kind. When I went to nail the Corpus to the Cross I realized I was not just making a Crucifix . This was hard to do, un expected. God said “it’s ok, you are a sinner, I know this about you. This will help you think about my Cross, about me, my Passion for you, it will bring you closer to me. It will help others, you will be helping others get closer to me”
To this day nailing the Corpus to the Cross is always a unique experience. I know who I am and thank God this faith has shown me who He is. When you go to the cross and contemplate your own sin it is good to have a God so loving and forgiving as to just give you a smile, tell you to get up, lets keep moving. I have to have the Crucifix in my life, I have to make the sign of the Cross in my life daily. Of course these are just things that we as Catholics have and do. One needs not to get obsessed with them as this to would be sin. But when you apply them to the light of Christ they can be very helpful tools for healing on this wonderful journey home. I see the crucifix as the port hole to Heaven. On one side we crucified our Savior (we-all) on the other side an empty Cross reflecting our Gods Mercy, Forgiveness and Reconciliation. The great welcoming back home, prodigal sons and daughters. …HEAVEN! In order to appreciate the Crucifix you should know what you have been saved from. You find this out, you have discovered the Catholic faith. The Sacrament of Confession comes to mind. A joy filled sacrament full of Humility. Core stuff…deep stuff…
Here is a writing from a Catholic Saint that really helped me discover God in a special way. To understand the difference between God as my Creator and me being Created by God.
When I was just twenty it gave me great satisfaction that I managed to read, and understand, the Ten Categories of Aristotle without a teacher. I would mention the book at every opportunity, slipping the title in with a touch of awe, smiling to myself when lecturers would comment how difficult it had been for them to answer it.
And much good it did me! Indeed, it was harmful, because it encouraged me to think of You, O Lord, as if you were part of what you had made, instead of being its essence and origin. Sadly, I had my back toward the light and my eyes fixed on the darkness. I could understand without difficulty logic, rhetoric, geometry, music, and arithmetic, but I did not see that my intelligence itself was a gift of God and that all the true things I learned came from him, their source. What advantage was it to me that I had a nimble wit when all the while I turned from good and clung to evil? Little did I realize then how much better off were all those (as I saw them) “simple” souls who lacked my native intelligence but put their trust in Go. *Saint Augustine *
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NewSeeker
Guest
Someone (I forget who) recently wrote a Master’s thesis on crosses in Mormon churches in the 19th and early 20th centuries. The thesis included many photos of LDS buildings with crosses on them and in them. Apparently, it only became a big deal in the mid-20th century when there was some kind of conflict between the Catholic bishop in SLC and LDS church leadership, I think over Catholic evangelization efforts in Utah at the time? Rebecca probably knows a lot more about this.
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