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RebeccaJ
Guest
Mike Reed. I read his thesis, it was very interesting.
There was also an example of a Mormon marriage license imprinted with a Sacred Heart…which of course has a cross.
SL Trib story on it here.
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There was also an example of a Mormon marriage license imprinted with a Sacred Heart…which of course has a cross.
SL Trib story on it here.
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Pepband_Mom
Guest
Cowboy Pete:
I think what you are struggling to discuss is the theory of LIMBO.
As a child in catechism many years ago, we discussed what happened to unborn babies who were not baptized. Theologians for years had tossed this concept/theory back & forth. We were taught they were in a state of happiness, as they could not have possibly sinned. However, the stain of original sin remains.
In the 40+ years since my husb & I were in Catechism, the Church has looked at it and said, NO, they are in Heaven with God. They may have been asked what their choice is as the Angels were. We know the Angels made a choice because 1/3 of them were cast out of heaven.
So if the Angels had a choice, probably the unbaptized, unborn souls have as well. God is all love and all merciful.
Love the “religious nuts”
I think what you are struggling to discuss is the theory of LIMBO.
As a child in catechism many years ago, we discussed what happened to unborn babies who were not baptized. Theologians for years had tossed this concept/theory back & forth. We were taught they were in a state of happiness, as they could not have possibly sinned. However, the stain of original sin remains.
In the 40+ years since my husb & I were in Catechism, the Church has looked at it and said, NO, they are in Heaven with God. They may have been asked what their choice is as the Angels were. We know the Angels made a choice because 1/3 of them were cast out of heaven.
So if the Angels had a choice, probably the unbaptized, unborn souls have as well. God is all love and all merciful.
Love the “religious nuts”
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Cowboy_Pete
Guest
I didn’t think you were.
Absolutely agreed, and I hope the Church will eventually come around to your point of view on this issue. I’ve heard LDS religion professors say the same thing.
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Cowboy_Pete
Guest
No. For one thing, people converting to Mormonism don’t go to the temple for at least a year, and usually much longer than that. Most Mormons don’t even have a temple recommend; I don’t anymore, for example, bc of alcohol. And blood atonement had nothing to do with the temple … it was a weird theory invented during Brigham Young’s time which never became doctrine.
I went through the Temple for the first time in 1985, so I do remember the pledge, but you have some facts wrong, and it was not a “blood oath,” but beyond that I cannot discuss. Would you agree that there’s a difference between saying “I would rather let someone murder me than share these things,” and saying, “If I reveal these things, I will be murdered”? When some folks started misinterpreting it as a threat, the LDS church removed the pledge from the ceremony.
I’ve made a promise not to discuss them, so I won’t, but it’s hardly a secret. All the ceremonies, past and present, are in the Library of Congress, so you can look them up there if you’re interested.
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mwok
Guest
Schuberts Ave Maria sung by Andrea Bocelli is one of my favorites, then again most versions of Ave Maria are my favorite!
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rinnie
Guest
If you made a promise not to discuss them, why would you have to make such a promise? Did that not bother you. I mean where did Jesus ever give us a teaching and then tell us Don’t discuss it with anyone?
Does that not bother you that you were asked to do such a thing, I mean the Apostles were taught to go out and Spread the word of God, not keep a promise not to discuss things.
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Cowboy_Pete
Guest
You might want to give the NT another look. I can think of two instances where Jesus taught some disciples something (Peter on the Mt of transfiguration, for instance) and told them to not speak about it.
Because like I said, it’s not a secret. The mysteries of the temple are through revelation, not in the script. You can read everything that’s said and gestured in the Library of Congress. The true knowledge comes from seeking God’s spirit there and pondering the things we’ve seen and heard. We aren’t allowed to speak of it, because each person is supposed to seek the truth direct from God without intermediary.
I’m sorry if you think that’s sinister. I think it’s quite the opposite … it’s being respectful of others’ sacred and personal journey with Christ.
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Telstar
Guest
I’m assuming you’re referring to these:Matthew 17:[9] And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying: Tell the vision to no man, till the Son of man be risen from the dead.
Matthew 9:[30] And their eyes were opened, and Jesus strictly charged them, saying, See that no man know this. [31] But they going out, spread his fame abroad in all that country.
The first one is obvious that they were not to share it until after He had risen from the dead. If everyone had heard about it before that time, the other Apostles might have tried harder to resist the soldiers when they came to arrest Jesus, and all been killed in the process. He did this so that everything could be fulfilled as it was meant to be. He knew that He could trust them not to share it with the others, especially Judas, until the time had come for them to share it with the rest of His followers.
In the second one, He is clearly speaking to the blind men that He had healed, but He certainly knew that they would not be able to hide the fact that they had been healed, and could now see. Not to mention the fact that He did it in front of other witnesses that wouldn’t hold their tongues, either. I think He might have actually wanted them to avoid telling certain people, but He also knew that they would have to tell some. If you’ll notice, they went out and found a dumb man that was possessed, and they brought him to Jesus to be healed, also.
Jesus never taught the Apostles or anyone else to keep anything that He taught them, secret. The only time there was any secrecy was when they were under the severe persecution of Rome and had to hide themselves in order for them to stay alive. When Jesus died on the Cross, the veil of the Holy of Holies in the Temple was rent asunder, because the Word of God (Jesus Christ) had now been revealed to the world and was no longer to be hidden from our gaze. We could now see God ‘face to face’, whereas before that time, no one could see Him as He really was except the High Priests, and (IIRC) even they diverted their eyes, away.
When Catholics want to commune with Jesus, we can go to the Church, kneel in front of the Tabernacle (or in front of the Monstrance during Adoration) to do it. We don’t feel the need to hide ourselves behind locked doors, where no one else is allowed to enter. Jesus is always there, waiting for us and calling us, in the Holy Eucharist that is always present, there in the Tabernacle. You could easily do it yourself, anytime you wanted to. Many local churches are always unlocked, so we can visit Him at any hour (night or day) that we might feel the need to have a heart-to-heart talk, in a more intimate way than by just praying at home. He came down from Heaven for us, sinners, so why would He hide Himself away and only allow ‘saints’ to visit Him?
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Cowboy_Pete
Guest
Like you, I love to worship in the Catholic church. It’s wonderful to go in there, kneel, and pray. I wish we had those soft kneely things. It’s very convenient; if I had a car, I’d be driving over to the Cathedral on Desert Inn and LVB right now.
But there are different means of worship. Our temple worship does not threaten or demean your worship, and I’m sorry that you find it threatening. One day you’ll have a better understanding, in this life or the next.
But there are different means of worship. Our temple worship does not threaten or demean your worship, and I’m sorry that you find it threatening. One day you’ll have a better understanding, in this life or the next.
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bz5
Guest
This is to answer Cowboy Pete’s question about why we accept baptism from other denominations. The normal way for a Catholic to be baptized is by a priest or a deacon. But all that is NECESSARY for a valid baptism is that one baptizes in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit (by which we mean the Trinity) with water, and that the person has the intention of baptizing. So, technically, even a non-Christian could baptize someone. We do consider Protestants to be part of our church by virtue of their baptism, though of course they don’t participate fully in it.
Additionally, we also believe that non-believers may be saved by Jesus through Baptism of desire. If, through no fault of their own, a person dies without having been baptized, but did follow God as best as he knew how, we may presume that person would have been baptized had he understood the necessity of it. That’s baptism of desire. We are bound by the sacraments, but God is not.
Additionally, we also believe that non-believers may be saved by Jesus through Baptism of desire. If, through no fault of their own, a person dies without having been baptized, but did follow God as best as he knew how, we may presume that person would have been baptized had he understood the necessity of it. That’s baptism of desire. We are bound by the sacraments, but God is not.
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Telstar
Guest
LOL… they’re called “kneelers”. Since Catholics tend to spend a lot of time on their knees, praying, during Mass (although, not nearly as much as we did before the VAT II changes), it’s nice to have something to cushion the knees, especially for old farts like me.
I never said that it was ‘demeaning’ or ‘threatening’ to our worship, unless they do things that really are threatening or demeaning to Catholics in the Temple. In that case, God will be the one that will judge them for that kind of stuff, and I would pity their poor souls, because He would be absolutely livid about it. (He really haaaaaaaaaaates when people mock Him.) So, I sincerely hope not, for their souls’ sakes. :bigyikes:
I really doubt that I’ll understand anything about LDS beliefs in ‘the next life’, since they really won’t matter. I’ll just be very happy if I at least make it into Purgatory, based on my own beliefs.
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Cowboy_Pete
Guest
Which is why I shudder when folks start blathering about “the mormon Jesus.”
I hope you don’t think I was being facetious or mocking the kneelers. I really do love being able to kneel in church without awkwardness; I have worshiped in that Cathedral and I plan to do it again.LOL… they’re called “kneelers”. Since Catholics tend to spend a lot of time on their knees, praying, during Mass (although, not nearly as much as we did before the VAT II changes), it’s nice to have something to cushion the knees, especially for old farts like me.
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Miriam1947
Guest
I heard about baptism of desire when I was in RCIA and I was so thankful. Just in case I had an accident or something before I actually came into the Church.
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Telstar
Guest
Most people say that because the Jesus that LDS describe is so different from what most other Christians believe about Him. It almost seems like they’re referring to some “Jesus” guy that lives up the road, so, it’s more like you have your very own version. Sorry… it’s probably not very charitable, but that’s why it happens.Which is why I shudder when folks start blathering about “the mormon Jesus.”
Nah. I know a lot of people comment about our kneelers. Back before VAT II we had to kneel almost through the entire Mass. “Low Mass” was usually 30-45 minutes, and that was bad enough, but “High Mass” could go on for 1 1/2 hours or more. That’s a very long time to spend at least 75% of the time on your knees! OUCH!!
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Cowboy_Pete
Guest
Charitable is beyond the point … when I hear the phrase “the mormon Jesus,” the message I get is that the speaker hates mormons so much that he’s willing to blaspheme Jesus to make his point.
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Pepband_Mom
Guest
bz5
Baptism of Blood & Baptism of Desire.
If you die a martyr’s death, and have heard the gospel, believe but not quite baptised (ex. someone in RCIA), then you’re fine
For a sacrament to be valid, must have 3 things:
INTENT - recipient must intend to be baptized & person administering must intend it
FORM - you MUST say the right words when you pour the water, the ages old Catholic formula - “I baptize you in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit” - pretty straightforward.
.
MATTER - Water by full immersion or sprinkling. doesn’t matter if you are dunked or not. Where would you baptize infants, people in northern, cold, or dry climates without a river, pool, stream? or WAY TOO COLD. INVALIDS?? RIGHT! Would be silly to baptize someone by full immersion & possibly cause their death by doing so. Common sense goes a long way The intent to baptize in the name of the TRIUNE GOD is critical. If not, renders one’s efforts for naught.
You do these 3 things and you’re in good shape. We speak HIS WORDS when we baptize, He has us use WATER that we feel.
GOD has us use all our senses to “get it” - Water, Oil, Bread, Wine, Incense, Bells, Music, set prayers, etc.
We listen, look, smell, feel, speak etc. The whole body is brought into worship.
WE USE OUR BODY TO WORSHIP
Remember, every talking head that yells out “You have to immerse” is off base & backed into a corner. No one has more experience with the process of baptism that the Roman Catholic Church - 2000 years worth.
Baptism of Blood & Baptism of Desire.
If you die a martyr’s death, and have heard the gospel, believe but not quite baptised (ex. someone in RCIA), then you’re fine
For a sacrament to be valid, must have 3 things:
INTENT - recipient must intend to be baptized & person administering must intend it
FORM - you MUST say the right words when you pour the water, the ages old Catholic formula - “I baptize you in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit” - pretty straightforward.
.
MATTER - Water by full immersion or sprinkling. doesn’t matter if you are dunked or not. Where would you baptize infants, people in northern, cold, or dry climates without a river, pool, stream? or WAY TOO COLD. INVALIDS?? RIGHT! Would be silly to baptize someone by full immersion & possibly cause their death by doing so. Common sense goes a long way The intent to baptize in the name of the TRIUNE GOD is critical. If not, renders one’s efforts for naught.
You do these 3 things and you’re in good shape. We speak HIS WORDS when we baptize, He has us use WATER that we feel.
GOD has us use all our senses to “get it” - Water, Oil, Bread, Wine, Incense, Bells, Music, set prayers, etc.
We listen, look, smell, feel, speak etc. The whole body is brought into worship.
WE USE OUR BODY TO WORSHIP
Remember, every talking head that yells out “You have to immerse” is off base & backed into a corner. No one has more experience with the process of baptism that the Roman Catholic Church - 2000 years worth.
P
pollylodges
Guest
Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee.
Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb Jesus.
Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death.
Amen.
†
Our Father who art in Heaven, hallowed be thy name.
Thy kingdom come, thy will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread.
And forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us.
And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.
Amen.
†
Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb Jesus.
Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death.
Amen.
†
Our Father who art in Heaven, hallowed be thy name.
Thy kingdom come, thy will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread.
And forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us.
And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.
Amen.
†
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pollylodges
Guest
Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee.
Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb Jesus.
Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death.
Amen.
†
Our Father who art in Heaven, hallowed be thy name.
Thy kingdom come, thy will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread.
And forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us.
And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.
Amen.
†
Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb Jesus.
Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death.
Amen.
†
Our Father who art in Heaven, hallowed be thy name.
Thy kingdom come, thy will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread.
And forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us.
And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.
Amen.
†
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