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irishet3
Guest
I do have an ax to grind; Christs Church is being threatened by those charged to lead it.
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Ghosty
Guest
That’s very different from saying things about the problem being a “male hierarchy”. Disgust at abuse by people in the Church does not automatically lead to a whole-sale questioning of a “male hierarchy”. I would guess you’ve had this axe to grind for quite some time.
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irishet3
Guest
The refusal of the Church to react to the crisis of pedephile priests is not a single act of arrogance it is rather a predictable result of allowing no outside influence or accountability. The really terrible thing is that arrogance and lack of accountability continues today.
The “ax” I carry started as a butter knife but almost every week my Church seems to do something to grow and sharpen what is now an ax. I keep looking at the times Christ called the Pharisees to task and wonder how the bishops cannot see themselves in those encounters.
The “ax” I carry started as a butter knife but almost every week my Church seems to do something to grow and sharpen what is now an ax. I keep looking at the times Christ called the Pharisees to task and wonder how the bishops cannot see themselves in those encounters.
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Ghosty
Guest
And what, if anything, does this have to do with a male hierarchy?
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MonicaC
Guest
I heard the other day on EWTN one of the Priest saying that if the churhc was going to die it would of died 2000 years ago. He said that the priest would of made sure of it.
We cannot blame the whole Church for something a few do. Remember one of Jesus’ own turned him in.
It seems like you are letting the secular world into your train of thought. God is always with His Church this he promised us.
If we say ‘We are without sin’ we are decieving ourselves, and the truth is not within us. If we acknowledge our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive our sins and cleans us from every wrong doing. IF we say we have not sinned we make him a liar and his word is not in us. - 1 john 8 -10
The Church has never denied that we are not with out sin.
Monica
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AlanFromWichita
Guest
You have some good points. The Church just may do herself more harm from inside than outsiders do to her. Is the the Law that used to be in Boston? I guess we really punished him, didn’t we – gave him a worldwide audience.
Yes, they make their own rules. Yes, it sometimes seem that the protection of the heirarchy is more important than the people, especially on an individual basis.
All male heirarchy? That is not a necessary condition for tyranny. Just imagine if Hillary were the pope? :bigyikes:
It’s hard to say how to give them power. When there are clear abuses and it takes the threat of the assets of entire dioceses to be liquidated to pay for it before it’s taken seriously – and even then that’s questionable – one would wish that “somebody” was empowered to do something. That said, in Protestant churches the people have a lot more say so, and they pretty much create their own doctrine because they get to elect their leaders. That’s a double edged sword.
Specifically, I don’t think women in charge would automatically help. Women in charge can be as vicious as men, if not worse. Our company Lucent fell apart even after hiring “Hurricane Debbie” Hopkins from Boeing at a price or several million dollars to walk in and spew her stupid fast-talking fancy vocabulary ******** to Wall Street investors. They were so proud of getting her, but the first time I saw her on a satellite broadcast I distrusted her because I’ve seen other “know nothings” with a big mouth who have managed to float up the corporate ladder one way or another.
Finally, after Lucent stock went from 80 dollars to 80 cents per share, they paid her millions more to go away. She plundered the company already in trouble, by having created the illusion she was doing the exact opposite at Boeing. I guess the politically correct gay-benefit-paying MBA idiots running the place thought that there needed to be some “diversity” at the top. Maybe that’s why Boeing “let her go” when we only offered her 4 million dollars signing bonus. I heard we paid her 10 million to get rid of her, but that’s not verified.
No, I’m convinced that women can be as vicious, as stupid, and every bit as much loudmouth power-hungry evil monsters as men. Put them in the situation where they are tempted by power and greed – and where whistleblowing has the disadvantage of limiting your potential for growth, and I’m convinced they can become as evil as men. I’m not sure that women who wanted so much to have “careers” and thought that “only” raising a family was so dishonorable knew what they were getting into.
Alan
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AlanFromWichita
Guest
There’s another problem. Outside accountability does not necessarily guarantee any improvement. I tend to with your conclusions about what happened, and sadly even your other conclusion.
That can’t see it because they are worldly. It isn’t necessarily that they wish to be worldly or have no conscious desire to be like that. Their eyes have not yet been opened, so they are blind leaders.
God really can handle all this. There is little we can do about the Big Problems of the Church as lay people unless we are prosecutors, so the next best thing is to look through all the trappings and find the “real” gems of the Church, which by the way she does have. Spiritual direction, if available, can be priceless.
If you are upset and angry about all this, then satan has used this crisis to get to you as well. These things cannot separate us from the love of Christ (Rom 8) and if we worry and fret about what will happen we are disobeying Christ. Many do think that women priests would be a good idea, but I think it’s safe to say that efforts to actually try to make the Church change any time soon are wasted, if not counterproductive because all it does is get the power structure more defensive.
Alan
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irishet3
Guest
Any group that sees itself as not being accountable can certainly run amock; that’s why I used the example of the Pharisees. Certainly they thought of themselves as people of God but they only looked to each other for confirmation of their actions.
As for all male hierarcy and it’s potential for harm, here is a quick example. Each year our archdiocese has a ceremony honoring outstanding women in the archdiocese. Last years ceremony was about to begin with chairs on the altar, the actual altar had been moved, for the honorees to sit in. Our new AB held up the ceremony and had the chairs moved down off the altar in front of all those present. I am sure that those women felt their Church truly appreciated their efforts on her behalf.
Even if you were to argue that woman should not be on the altar, don’t you think it would have been the gracious thing, the Christian thing, to allow the ceremony to continue and not embarrass these fine Catholic women? Perhaps if the AB didn’t want a repeat, he could address it in the future, but this was uncalled for. It is an act of arrogance, of disregard for follow Catholics and one of no accountability. It is praising the law of man not the love of Jesus.
As for all male hierarcy and it’s potential for harm, here is a quick example. Each year our archdiocese has a ceremony honoring outstanding women in the archdiocese. Last years ceremony was about to begin with chairs on the altar, the actual altar had been moved, for the honorees to sit in. Our new AB held up the ceremony and had the chairs moved down off the altar in front of all those present. I am sure that those women felt their Church truly appreciated their efforts on her behalf.
Even if you were to argue that woman should not be on the altar, don’t you think it would have been the gracious thing, the Christian thing, to allow the ceremony to continue and not embarrass these fine Catholic women? Perhaps if the AB didn’t want a repeat, he could address it in the future, but this was uncalled for. It is an act of arrogance, of disregard for follow Catholics and one of no accountability. It is praising the law of man not the love of Jesus.
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Ghosty
Guest
The altar was moved so chairs could be put up in the Sanctuary?!?! :bigyikes: :bigyikes: :bigyikes:
God bless your Archbishop! The people who set that up SHOULD have been embarassed. I’m glad they were called out in front of everyone like that. That has nothing to do with women not being allowed in the Sanctuary, as they most certainly are allowed, that’s about plain respect for holy ground.
The Sanctuary is not a place for chairs to be set up for some honoring ceremony. That is a disgrace to the Church. The fact that you reduce it to a “problem with a male hierarchy” shows a serious problem in your thinking, IMO.
I’m putting you and your diocese in my general intentions.
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FCEGM
Guest
Ah, yes, human respect must trump worshipping with proper reverence at the altar every time. Heaven forbid that ANYONE gets her tender feelings hurt.
God bless your most excellent Archbishop whoever he is!
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AlanFromWichita
Guest
Nobody “should” be embarrassed unless they defiantly went against the instructions they were given on how to set it up. We don’t know whether that happened.
Maybe it’s the way they’ve set it up every year, and it took the AB by surprise – which doesn’t mean the AB did anything wrong. But unless it was about defiance, as I stated above, it surprises me to think that any Catholic thinks other Catholics, “should” be embarrassed, and not only that but it should happen in front of everybody.
That is very troubling.
Alan
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AlanFromWichita
Guest
Christian respect does not involve taking other people’s feelings lightly.Ah, yes, human respect must trump worshipping with proper reverence at the altar every time. Heaven forbid that ANYONE gets her tender feelings hurt.
Perhaps the situation was such that it couldn’t be helped, but you know what? I would rather live my life respecting other people, than worshipping 24/7 and treating them like dirt. No, I’m not saying this happened, but let’s remember that the whole point of the Church is to bring us Christ, whose main orders to us on this earth – as far as anything tangible – is to treat one another as if the other was Christ Himself.
You wrote that human respect must trump reverence at the altar. If those two things are mutually exclusive, then you’re right; let’s get rid of the altar because it obviously isn’t doing our hearts any good.
Alan
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AlanFromWichita
Guest
I tend to agree with you, unless there was some actual breach of some rule that the AB could not allow.
In St. Anthony, a beautiful historic Church, the altar is moveable and they take it out for Stations of the cross, benediction, etc, and use the one back in the back. I suppose they also use this for the Latin Masses they still say there, but I haven’t been to any because they conflict with another for which I work playing music.
If you were to tell me they moved the altar there and set up chairs, it would not have been any big deal.
Some places it may be more serious.
From the information you’ve given us, I tend to agree with the other posters that what you said is a result of the “male heirarchy” who does not respect women, unless the same AB had allowed the chairs to be set up for other ceremonies with men and thereby singled out the women for this.
Also, who was embarrassed? The people who set it up, or the honorees, or were those the same people? Who gave permission to move the altar, if anyone? I’m asking because even though the situation was awkward, if I were in the audience watching this, I would have not known whom to “blame” unless they announced over the loudspeaker, “we would like to tell everyone present that these women have exalted themselves by taking too high a seat, so now we’re putting them back in their place which does not involve anywhere near an altar, much less in its place.”
Alan
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Ghosty
Guest
I’ve spoken to a seminarian on this topic, and altars are not to be moved except for cleaning or religious purposes. The sanctuary, the place of the Consecration, is not the place for a yearly award ceremony. I don’t see how that can remotely be viewed as acceptable. Remember, we are to bow to the altar whenever we pass it, it’s not something to simply be moved about for secular functions
The reasons you described for it being moved at your parish are religious in nature, and are quite different than a secular award ceremony.
Yes, I do think that people who fiddle with with sacred things should be embarrased; I said that as an adjective, not a verb. I do think that such blatent disregard for the sacred should be publically addressed immediately when it occurs. That was scandalous, not some private or unnoticable error. That’s not the same as blaring it over a loudspeaker and making them wear a scarlet letter, though
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irishet3
Guest
It just hurts me so much that we have lost sight of the people, it was the people Jesus came to redeem not the law. In my naivity I always thought the traditions and sacraments of the church were to aid people to come to Christ but somewhere we’ve lost the focus Jesus gave us and it’s the law that’s important. It’s very sad.
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Ghosty
Guest
I find it ironic that, to show this, you give an example of disrespect of the very place that Christ comes to* us* at every Mass.
Are you being intentionally ironic? Honest question.
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AlanFromWichita
Guest
Well, I suppose you could look at it this way:
Christ did not abolish the law. He came to fulfill it. Therefore, to follow “The Law” is to follow Christ. All the touchy-feely stuff is not to be trusted. Therefore we should not use our own opinions as a guide to What’s Right. To do so is to form one’s own conscience, which is not a Catholic way to be.
As it turns out, this award ceremony was blasphemous in nature – and whoever set up for it probably knew it – so it is right for the AB to react as he did, as he was just following Christ’s example in the temple. In fact, I rather suspect he did it with more decorum than Christ did, unless he literally threw the chairs around.
Alan
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irishet3
Guest
I find it ironic that, to show this, you give an example of disrespect of the very place that Christ comes to* us* at every Mass.
Are you being intentionally ironic? Honest question.
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irishet3
Guest
Mass can be held anywhere; Christ can come to you anywhere. It is not the building, it is not the laws it is the love Christ showed for all us. That’s the key, God’s children not some building.
I was worried that this sentiment was prevelent in the Church; it is best I not visit here again. God bless you all.
I was worried that this sentiment was prevelent in the Church; it is best I not visit here again. God bless you all.
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mspencer
Guest
Out of the many things that could be said I ought to point out my experience of the Church in the Philippines. (In fact I married a Filipina.) The Church there is faithful and healthy. That is true of many other countries in Africa and in Asia. The problems that rightly upset some people exist in part of the world, the West.
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