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justasking4
Guest
The Scriptures derive their authority, inspiration and inerrancy not from men but from God Himself.
The “tests” that they used were adequate in helping the church at the time to determine which books belonged and which did not. Just because men do err does not mean at times they can get things right.
If this truly is revelation from God as the church believes then on that alone is sufficent to know that His word would be inerrant. Jesus certainly believed it was.
G
guanophore
Guest
John 8:44
44 You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks according to his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
It is most effective to indoctrinate the young, because they are more gullible, and when they are trained, will grow up in following error.
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Swan
Guest
This is a good question and no one has answered it (as far as I can see). Since there is no argument that selling indulgences and church offices did occur and that it involved church leaders in high places, including the pope, then the mere fact that it happened seems to speak to the issue of it being a doctrine. It was done and it was accepted by the powers-that-be in the church at the time. So it seems to be an error at the very least. It may never have been written down per se as doctrine, but actions speak louder than words. “You shall know them by their fruits”.
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guanophore
Guest
I don’t think any of these qualify. Apostasy is falling away from the faith. It is quite possible that none of the people engaged in these sinful activities were people of faith in the first place. If they were, then they fell from grace, and were living and acting sinfully. That means that their apostasy was personal. It does not mean that the whole church fell into sin.
Could you please explain how “one can only conclude” this? How can there be a valid council to deal with abuse, if there was no valid faithful?
What did not happen is that this abuse was official teaching of the Church. Sinful behavior of individuals does not invalidate the Teaching of Jesus Christ, any more than the sinful behavior of Judas invalidates the Truth of what Jesus taught. Will you nullify the Word of God, because Judas spent 3 years with Jesus, and still turned away?
This was not taught. It was practiced. There is a difference.
But the answer to this would depend upon what you mean by the question (this probably belongs on another thread) because the Church does teach that our good works can help save the souls of others.
Please substantiate this with references.
No one has denied that it is wrong, or that it didn’t happen. The point is, if there was a valid council to repudiate it, then the persons who fell into apostasy were not the Teachers of the Faith.
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guanophore
Guest
I understand what you are saying, and in fact, used to share this view. However, Jesus is not too weak to perform His Word, and when He said “the gates of hell will not prevail” He meant it. Teaching error is entering through the gates of hell, and that is why it is said that the Church is infallible. It is not by the sinful men who are in charge that this happens, but by the Holy Spirit, which is the same Source that produced the New Testament through fallible men. The claim is not based on any arrogance of men, but on the divine revelation of God.
Yes, corruption in high places is damaging, but you would not say that Jesus’ message is not true because Judas betrayed Him, would you? Yet, he was one of the 12, one of the inner circle, one whom Jesus sent out to teach and to heal.
You are trolling again, ja4. To what end? Do you wish to convert Catholics into “bible christians”?
You know quite well that none of the Teachings of the Catholic Church are “based” on the Bible. ALL of what Jesus taught and committed to His Apostles was complete before a word of the NT was written. The NT is the expression of Catholic faith and practice, not the source of it. Catholicism comes from an understanding of what Jesus says.
There are other ways to ‘buy" than money. Jesus purchased our souls with His blood, for example. Our works can cover a multitude of sins. However, they are not separated from Jesus’ grace from the cross, but part of it.
I think it is presumptuous to judge the souls of others. It is more appropriate to say that the behaviors were not consistent with Catholic faith and teaching.
It is necessary for fundamentalists to promote such calumny. This is the only grounds by which they can invalidate the Authority appointed by Christ. Otherwise, they would have to admit that they are rebelling against God.
Rom 13:1-7
13:1 Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. 2 Therefore he who resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of him who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, 4 for he is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain; he is the servant of God to execute his wrath on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore one must be subject, not only to avoid God’s wrath but also for the sake of conscience. 6 For the same reason you also pay taxes, for the authorities are ministers of God, attending to this very thing. 7 Pay all of them their dues, taxes to whom taxes are due, revenue to whom revenue is due, respect to whom respect is due, honor to whom honor is due. "
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Swan
Guest
How does “the gates of hell will not prevail” translate into infallibility? 
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guanophore
Guest
VWcrazy;3475330:
Because Scripture does not say this about itself, and in fact, states the opposite. Jesus clearly is given all authority:
Matt 28:17-20
18 And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age.”
And He gives that to the Apostles to make disciples, teach all that He has commanded, baptize, and know that He is with them until the end of the Age. Not “until the New Testament is written” and not "until the canon is created’ but unto the end of the Age.
Right. But the HS used those fallible men to write, preserve, protect and promulgate it.
And that is the question of the thread. If they got it “right” up until the canon was closed, when, where, and how did they fall off the rails?
But how do YOU know that!? since you reject the church that Jesus founded?
This is a preposterous line of reasoning. This is like saying “since Judas betrayed Jesus, then it must have been a Teaching of Jesus that we betray our loved ones”.
The mere fact that it happened must speak to the issue that Jesus taught that, right?
However, I agree that it was an abuse, and that these people who abused the conduit of the grace of God are most certainly know by their fruits.
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Lampo
Guest
Exactly! How do you, JA4, know the Bible is inerrant?
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justinthemartyr
Guest
justasking4;3475552:
Well, if the Catholic church were like your religion, then the selling of indulgences would be doctrine. But, since there is a specific way of defining doctrine in the Catholic church and it takes the magesterium in union with the bishop of Rome to define it, you are incorrect.Because Scripture does not say this about itself, and in fact, states the opposite. Jesus clearly is given all authority:
Matt 28:17-20
18 And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age.”
And He gives that to the Apostles to make disciples, teach all that He has commanded, baptize, and know that He is with them until the end of the Age. Not “until the New Testament is written” and not "until the canon is created’ but unto the end of the Age.
Right. But the HS used those fallible men to write, preserve, protect and promulgate it.
And that is the question of the thread. If they got it “right” up until the canon was closed, when, where, and how did they fall off the rails?
But how do YOU know that!? since you reject the church that Jesus founded?
This is a preposterous line of reasoning. This is like saying “since Judas betrayed Jesus, then it must have been a Teaching of Jesus that we betray our loved ones”.
The mere fact that it happened must speak to the issue that Jesus taught that, right?
However, I agree that it was an abuse, and that these people who abused the conduit of the grace of God are most certainly know by their fruits.
The Catholic Church is not some johnny come lately religion calling itself Christianity, and making saints out of pop stars like britney, or bending for the world and accepting contraception and divorce because it seems easier and softer.
The Catholic church is very patient to make decisions, usually taking several, sometimes hundreds of years, sometimes a thousand, to define an aspect of the faith or make somone a saint.
Thsi is what differentiates the church from all other religions claiming to be Christian, yet made by men. God only built one Church, men built all the rest.
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Hisalone
Guest
Yes, Yes, No
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Lampo
Guest
And what does that all mean? It doesn’t negate the divinity of the Catholic Church.
H
Hisalone
Guest
Now the Roman Church is God?
At least all pretenses are off!
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Lampo
Guest
The body of Christ is the Church.
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Harpazo
Guest
You and justasking never cease to amaze me with your silly claims. I asked for one of you to show me where a Pope of Rome ever mandated the sale of indulgences. Neither of you have done so. Why?
Please learn what Catholics believe and teach about indulgences before you scream and shout. It will be of benefit to all.
You can read about them at www.newadvent.org Just type “indulgences” in the search bar or pick up a catechism. God be with you.
Al-masih qam!
Andrew
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Hisalone
Guest
So this is what at the root of the heresy that the Catholic Church s infallible?
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Hisalone
Guest
To claim that the pope was ingnorant of the sali of indulgences and of Tetzel is pure folly. Catholics lose all credibility when making such claims.
L
Lampo
Guest
Could you clarify?
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Swan
Guest
justasking4;3475552:
No, though I can see where you’re going with this. What I meant was simply that there seems to have been a lot going on in the highest echelons of the Church - the sale of indulgences, the earth being the center of the universe, etc., that were accepted as common belief/practice - though they may or may not have been “written down”. In other words, the fact that they were commonly accepted beliefs and/or practices would indicate that they had official sanction, thus were defacto “teachings”.Because Scripture does not say this about itself, and in fact, states the opposite. Jesus clearly is given all authority:
Matt 28:17-20
18 And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age.”
And He gives that to the Apostles to make disciples, teach all that He has commanded, baptize, and know that He is with them until the end of the Age. Not “until the New Testament is written” and not "until the canon is created’ but unto the end of the Age.
Right. But the HS used those fallible men to write, preserve, protect and promulgate it.
And that is the question of the thread. If they got it “right” up until the canon was closed, when, where, and how did they fall off the rails?
But how do YOU know that!? since you reject the church that Jesus founded?
This is a preposterous line of reasoning. This is like saying “since Judas betrayed Jesus, then it must have been a Teaching of Jesus that we betray our loved ones”.
The mere fact that it happened must speak to the issue that Jesus taught that, right?
However, I agree that it was an abuse, and that these people who abused the conduit of the grace of God are most certainly know by their fruits.
L
Lampo
Guest
What if he wasn’t ignorant of it? Again, that doesn’t negate the divinity of the Catholic Church. There were a number of scoundrel popes. Fortunately, they never erred when defining dogma. By the protection of the Holy Spirit, these bad popes never taught error in matters of faith and morals. There always has been and always will be sinners in Christ’s Church. I suspect Christ new this when he founded it upon St. Peter.
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