"The Church" scripture and ECF define it!

[Mannyfit75]

“Concerning this Holy Catholic Church Paul writes to Timothy, ‘That thou mayest know haw thou oughtest to behave thyself in the House of God, which is the Church of the Living God, the pillar and ground of the truth’” Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lectures,18:25(A.D. 350).

"[T]he Article, In one Holy Catholic Church,’ on which, though one might say many things, we will speak but briefly. It is called Catholic then because it extends over all the world, from one end of the earth to the other; and because it teaches universally and completely one and all the doctrines which ought to come to men’s knowledge, concerning things both visible and invisible, heavenly and earthly… for this cause the Faith has securely delivered to thee now the Article, And in one Holy Catholic Church;’ that thou mayest avoid their wretched meetings, and ever abide with the Holy Church Catholic in which thou wast regenerated. And if ever thou art sojourning in cities, inquire not simply where the Lord’s House is (for the other sects of the profane also attempt to call their own dens houses of the Lord), nor merely where the Church is, but where is the Catholic Church. For this is the peculiar name of this Holy Church, the mother of us all, which is the spouse of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Only-begotten Son of God.” Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lectures, 18:23,26 (A.D. 350).

“I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy Catholic Church, the communion of saints, the remission of sins, the resurrection of the flesh, and eternal life. Amen.” Apostles Creed (A.D. 360).

“And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the life-giver, Who proceeds from the Father, Who with the Father and the Son is together worshiped and together glorified, Who spoke through the prophets; in one holy Catholic, and apostolic Church.” Constantinopolitan Creed (A.D. 381).

“Those who from heresy turn to orthodoxy, and to the portion of those who are being saved, we receive according to the following method and custom: Arians, and Macedonians, and Sabbatians, and Novatians, who call themselves Cathari or Aristori, and Quarto-decimans or Tetradites, and Apollinarians, we receive, upon their giving a written renunciation [of their errors] and anathematize every heresy which is not in accordance with the Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church of God.” Council of Constantinople I, Canon 7 (A.D. 381).
).

 

[Mannyfit75]

“We must hold to the Christian religion and to communication in her Church, which is Catholic and which is called Catholic not only by her own members but even by all her enemies. For when heretics or the adherents of schisms talk about her, not among themselves but with strangers, willy-nilly they call her nothing else but Catholic. For they will not be understood unless they distinguish her by this name which the whole world employs in her regard.” Augustine, The True Religion, 7:12 (A.D. 390).

“Inasmuch, I repeat, as this is the case, we believe also in the Holy Church, [intending thereby] assuredly the Catholic. For both heretics and schismatics style their congregations churches. But heretics, in holding false opinions regarding God, do injury to the faith itself; while schismatics, on the other hand, in wicked separations break off from brotherly charity, although they may believe just what we believe. Wherefore neither do the heretics belong to the Church catholic, which loves God; nor do the schismatics form a part of the same.” Augustine, On Faith and Creed, 10:21 (A.D. 393).

“For in the Catholic Church, not to speak of the purest wisdom, to the knowledge of which a few spiritual, men attain in this life…–not to speak of this wisdom, which you do not believe to be in the Catholic Church, there are many other things which most justly keep me in her bosom. The consent of peoples and nations…so does her authority…the succession of priests…[a]nd so, lastly, does the name itself of Catholic, which, not without reason, amid so many heresies, the Church has thus retained; so that, though all heretics wish to be called Catholics, yet when a stranger asks where the Catholic Church meets, no heretic will venture to point to his own chapel or house. Such then in number and importance are the precious ties belonging to the Christian name which keep a believer in the Catholic Church…Now if the truth is so clearly proved as to leave no possibility of doubt, it must be set before all the things that keep me in the Catholic Church…For my part, I should not believe the gospel except as moved by the authority of the Catholic Church…for it was through the Catholics that I got my faith in it; and so, whatever you bring from the gospel will no longer have any weight with me. Wherefore, if no clear proof of the apostleship of Manichaeus is found in the gospel, I will believe the Catholics rather than you.” Augustine, Against the Epistle of Manichaeus, 4:5,5:6 (A.D 397).

 

[Mannyfit75]

“You think that you make a very acute remark when you affirm the name Catholic to mean universal, not in respect to the communion as embracing the whole world, but in respect to the observance of all Divine precepts and of all the sacraments, as if we (even accepting the position that the Church is called Catholic because it honestly holds the whole truth, of which fragments here and there are found in some heresies) rested upon the testimony of this word’s signification, and not upon the promises of God, and so many indisputable testimonies of the truth itself, our demonstration of the existence of the Church of God in all nations.” Augustine, To Vincent the Rogatist, 93:7,23 (A.D. 403).

“Philip the presbyter and legate of the Apostolic See said: There is no doubt, and in fact it has been known in all ages, that the holy and most blessed Peter, prince and head of the Apostles, pillar of the faith, and foundation of the Catholic Church, received the keys of the kingdom from our Lord Jesus Christ, the Saviour and Redeemer of the human race, and that to him was given the power of loosing and binding sins: who down even to to-day and forever both lives and judges in his successors.” Council of Ephesus, Session III (A.D. 431).

“I have often then inquired earnestly and attentively of very many men eminent for sanctity and learning, how and by what sure and so to speak universal rule I may be able to distinguish the truth of Catholic faith from the falsehood of heretical depravity; and I have always, and in almost every instance, received an answer to this effect: That whether I or anyone else should wish to detect the frauds and avoid the snares of heretics as they arise, and to continue sound and complete in the Catholic faith, we must, the Lord helping, fortify our own belief in two ways; first, by the authority of the Divine Law, and then, by the Tradition of the Catholic Church…Therefore, it is very necessary, on account of so great intricacies of such various error, that the rule for the right understanding of the prophets and apostles should be framed in accordance with the standard of Ecclesiastical and Catholic interpretation” Vincent of Lerins, Commonitory for the Antiquity and Universality of the Catholic Faith, 2:4,5 (A.D. 434).

“Wherefore the most holy and blessed Leo, archbishop of the great and elder Rome, through us, and through this present most holy synod together with the thrice blessed and all-glorious Peter the Apostle, who is the rock and foundation of the Catholic Church, and the foundation of the orthodox faith, hath stripped him of the episcopate, and hath alienated from him all hieratic worthiness. Therefore let this most holy and great synod sentence the before mentioned Dioscorus to the canonical penalties.” Council of Chalcedon, Session III (A.D. 451).

 

[levi86]

Church, though I don’t doubt that their is a physicalness to it, in that it is called the “body” of Christ, it certainly is much more than JUST the church at Rome… Here for starter is what some ECF’s had to say about the “church” being something other than or more than the Roman church.

Tertullian
“Moreover, after the pledging both of the attestation of faith and the promise of salvation under ‘three witnesses,’ there is added, of necessity, mention of the Church; inasmuch as, wherever there are three, (that is, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit) there is the Church, which is a body of three.” - Tertullian (On Baptism, 6)

Turtillian was VERY Catholic

Tertullian
Where was Marcion then, that shipmaster of Pontus, the zealous student of Stoicism? Where was Valentinus then, the disciple of Platonism? For it is evident that those men lived not so long ago – in the reign of Antoninus for the most part – and that they at first were believers in the doctrine of the Catholic Church, in the church of Rome under the episcopate of the blessed Eleutherus, until on account of their ever restless curiosity, with which they even infected the brethren, they were more than once expelled (On the Prescription Against Heretics 22,30 [A.D.200])

Please do not slander his name by taking his work out of context.

 

[levi86]

Church, though I don’t doubt that their is a physicalness to it, in that it is called the “body” of Christ, it certainly is much more than JUST the church at Rome… Here for starter is what some ECF’s had to say about the “church” being something other than or more than the Roman church.

Tertullian
“Moreover, after the pledging both of the attestation of faith and the promise of salvation under ‘three witnesses,’ there is added, of necessity, mention of the Church; inasmuch as, wherever there are three, (that is, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit) there is the Church, which is a body of three.” - Tertullian (On Baptism, 6)

Turtillian was VERY Catholic

Tertullian
Where was Marcion then, that shipmaster of Pontus, the zealous student of Stoicism? Where was Valentinus then, the disciple of Platonism? For it is evident that those men lived not so long ago – in the reign of Antoninus for the most part – and that they at first were believers in the doctrine of the Catholic Church, in the church of Rome under the episcopate of the blessed Eleutherus, until on account of their ever restless curiosity, with which they even infected the brethren, they were more than once expelled (On the Prescription Against Heretics 22,30 [A.D.200])

Please do not slander his name by taking his work out of context.

 

[Eden]

Again, where is your support in this? they arent talking about the church at rome go to the link provided and read these writings…

I see you did not follow the link provided to answer your curiosity as to how these quotes support the existence of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. I don’t know how many times I have linked to www.scripturecatholic.com and failed to evidence that you even visited the site. Could you please do us the favor of reading the entire page on the Church:

http://www.scripturecatholic.com/the_church.html

It would save everyone a lot of time and typing if you research these thread topics a little more thoroughly before presenting a supposedly “new” topic that is anything but.

 

[levi86]

Church, though I don’t doubt that their is a physicalness to it, in that it is called the “body” of Christ, it certainly is much more than JUST the church at Rome… Here for starter is what some ECF’s had to say about the “church” being something other than or more than the Roman church.

Tertullian
“Moreover, after the pledging both of the attestation of faith and the promise of salvation under ‘three witnesses,’ there is added, of necessity, mention of the Church; inasmuch as, wherever there are three, (that is, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit) there is the Church, which is a body of three.” - Tertullian (On Baptism, 6)

Tertullian was VERY Catholic

Tertullian
Where was Marcion then, that shipmaster of Pontus, the zealous student of Stoicism? Where was Valentinus then, the disciple of Platonism? For it is evident that those men lived not so long ago – in the reign of Antoninus for the most part – and that they at first were believers in the doctrine of the Catholic Church, in the church of Rome under the episcopate of the blessed Eleutherus, until on account of their ever restless curiosity, with which they even infected the brethren, they were more than once expelled (On the Prescription Against Heretics 22,30 [A.D.200])

Please do not slander his name by taking his work out of context.

 

[myfavoritmartin]

My friend slander tertullian?
He was excommunicated by YOUR church… sheesh.

 

[Mannyfit75]

I see you did not follow the link provided to answer your curiosity as to how these quotes support the existence of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. I don’t know how many times I have linked to www.scripturecatholic.com and failed to evidence that you even visited the site. Could you please do us the favor of reading the entire page on the Church:

http://www.scripturecatholic.com/the_church.html

It would save everyone a lot of time and typing if you research these thread topics a little more thoroughly before presenting a supposedly “new” topic that is anything but.

You did post that but he ignored the link completely. That’s where I got my sources from.

 

[myfavoritmartin]

My friend slander tertullian?
He was excommunicated by YOUR church… sheesh.

And I quote you saying tertullian “Tertullian was VERY Catholic”
hmmmmm

 

[levi86]

My friend slander tertullian?
He was excommunicated by YOUR church… sheesh.

The unorthodox opinions Tertullian developed later in life have nothing to do with your assertions regarding the nature of “the church”

 

[myfavoritmartin]

I see you did not follow the link provided to answer your curiosity as to how these quotes support the existence of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. I don’t know how many times I have linked to www.scripturecatholic.com and failed to evidence that you even visited the site. Could you please do us the favor of reading the entire page on the Church:

http://www.scripturecatholic.com/the_church.html

It would save everyone a lot of time and typing if you research these thread topics a little more thoroughly before presenting a supposedly “new” topic that is anything but.

I am going to say this only once and it is my opinion based on my readings of scripturecatholic… They are decietful and illusionist, they love to give the impression something is backed and then on further study it is found to be different…
If you wish to make a point summarize with FACTS, that can be double checked… I encourage you to double check me!

 

[myfavoritmartin]

The unorthodox opinions Tertullian developed later in life have nothing to do with your assertions regarding the nature of “the church”

Good so I can quote him all I want?
this good Catholic Tertullian whom late was excommunicated and you wont throw that in my face?

 

[Mannyfit75]

I am going to say this only once and it is my opinion based on my readings of scripturecatholic… They are decietful and illusionist, they love to give the impression something is backed and then on further study it is found to be different…
If you wish to make a point summarize with FACTS, that can be double checked… I encourage you to double check me!

Isn’t deceitful and illusionist in violation of the Forum Rule? Such terminology is very uncharitable. The cite is a Catholic Apologist site much like Catholic.com.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Tertullian broke with the Catholic Church and became the local leader and the passionate and brilliant exponent of Montanism, that is, he became a heretic.

The beliefs of Montanism contrasted with orthodox Christianity in the following ways:

* The belief that the prophecies of the Montanists superseded and fulfilled the doctrines proclaimed by the Apostles.

* The encouragement of ecstatic prophesying, contrasting with the more sober and disciplined approach to theology dominant in orthodox Christianity at the time and since.

* The view that Christians who fell from grace could not be redeemed, also in contrast to the orthodox Christian view that contrition could lead to a sinner's restoration to the church.

* The prophets of Montanism did not speak as messengers of God: "Thus saith the Lord," but rather described themselves as possessed by God, and spoke in his person. "I am the Father, the Word, and the Paraclete," said Montanus (Didymus, De Trinitate, III, xli); This possession by a spirit, which spoke while the prophet was incapable of resisting, is described by the spirit of Montanus: "Behold the man is like a lyre, and I dart like the plectrum. The man sleeps, and I am awake" (Epiphanius, "Panarion", xlviii, 4).

* A stronger emphasis on the avoidance of sin and church discipline than in orthodox Christianity. They emphasized chastity, including forbidding remarriage.

* Some of the Montanists were also "Quartodeciman" ("fourteeners"), preferring to celebrate Easter on the Hebrew calendar date of 14 Nisan, regardless of what day of the week it landed on. The orthodoxy held that Easter should be commemorated on the Sunday following 14 Nisan. (Trevett 1996:202)

Jerome and other church leaders claimed that the Montanists of their own day held the belief that the Trinity consisted of only a single person, similar to Sabellianism, as opposed to the orthodox view that the Trinity is one God of three persons which Tertullian also had held. There were some that were indeed modalistic monarchians (Sabellians) and some that were closer to the Trinitarian doctrine. It is reported that these modalists baptized mentioning the name of Jesus Christ as opposed to mentioning the Trinity. Most of the later Montanists were of the modalistic camp.

 

[myfavoritmartin]

Isn’t deceitful and illusionist in violation of the Forum Rule? Such terminology is very uncharitable. The cite is a Catholic Apologist site much like Catholic.com.

Gimme a break I stated it was my opinion, I did not say they where…
You’d love to see me gone… for the truth angers you it seems…
why is that?

 

[myfavoritmartin]

Isn’t deceitful and illusionist in violation of the Forum Rule? Such terminology is very uncharitable. The cite is a Catholic Apologist site much like Catholic.com.

I have found many discrepancies… shall I lie about that?
It wouldn’t be real Christian of me would it?

 

[Eden]

Here is a summary of Clement straight from him…

Again, you really shouldn’t rely on men who purchased their credentials instead of working for them. Mr. Svendsen relies on his readers to use him as a Cliff’s Notes to the ECFs in the hopes that noone will be motivated enough to consult the quotes selected and discover his dishonest evaluations of them. I’m sorry to see that you have fallen victim to his tactics.

Let’s look at this nugget from Clement of Alexandria:

“For it is not now the place, but the assemblage of the elect, that I call the Church.” (The Stromata, 7:5)

This innocuous quote is from an essay in The Stromata on the Gnostics, specifically chapter 5 entitled “THE HOLY SOUL A MORE EXCELLENT TEMPLE THAN ANY EDIFICE BUILT BY MAN”.

The longer quote is:

But were God possessed of a human form, He would need, equally with man, food, and shelter, and house, and the attendant incidents. Those who are like in form and affections will require similar sustenance. And if sacred has a twofold application, designating both God Himself and the structure raised to His honour,[5] how shall we not with propriety call the Church holy, through knowledge, made for the honour of God, sacred (ieron) to God, of great value, and not constructed by mechanical art, nor embellished by the hand of an impostor, but by the will of God fashioned into a temple ? For it is not now the place, but the assemblage of the elect,[6] that I call the Church. This temple is better for the reception of the greatness of the dignity of God. For the living creature which is of high value, is made sacred by that which is worth all, or rather which has no equivalent, in virtue of the exceeding sanctity of the latter.

From the same document, St. Clement of Alexandria says the following:

Similarly, also, in the Church, the elders attend to the department which has improvement for its object; and the deacons to the ministerial. In both these ministries the angels[4] serve God, in the management of earthly affairs…

And later in the same document:

And just as knavish boys bar out the teacher,so do these shut out the prophecies from their Church, regarding them with suspicion by reason of rebuke and admonition… And as those almonds are called empty in which the contents are worthless, not those in which there is nothing; so also we call those heretics empty, who are destitute of the counsels of God and the traditions of Christ; bitter, in truth, like the wild almond, their dogmas originating with themselves, with the exception of such truths as they could not, by reason of their evidence, discard and conceal.

(T)hose who are in ignorance are the Gentiles, those in knowledge, the true Church, and those in opinion, the Heretics…

Same document here:

THE TRADITION OF THE CHURCH PRIOR TO THAT OF THE HERESIES

Those, then, that adhere to impious words, and dictate them to others, inasmuch as they do not make a right but a perverse use of the divine words, neither themselves enter into the kingdom of heaven, nor permit those whom they have deluded to attain the truth. But not having the key of entrance, but a false (and as the common phrase expresses it), a counterfeit key (antikleis), by which they do not enter in as we enter in, through the tradition of the Lord, by drawing aside the curtain; but bursting through the side-door, and digging clandestinely through the wall of the Church, and stepping over the truth, they constitute themselves the Mystagogues[8] of the soul of the impious.

Such being the case, it is evident, from the high antiquity and perfect truth of the Church, that these later heresies, and those yet subsequent to them in time, were new inventions falsified [from the truth].

From what has been said, then, it is my opinion that the true Church, that which is really ancient, is one, and that in it those who according to God’s purpose are just, are enrolled.[3] For from the very reason that God is one, and the Lord one, that which is in the highest degree honourable is lauded in consequence of its singleness, being an imitation of the one first principle. In the nature of the One, then, is associated in a joint heritage the one Church, which they strive to cut asunder into many sects.

Therefore in substance and idea, in origin, in pre-eminence, we say that the ancient and Catholic[4] Church is alone, collecting as it does into the unity of the one faith–which results from the peculiar Testaments, or rather the one Testament in different times by the will of the one God, through one Lord–those already ordained, whom God predestinated, knowing before the foundation of the world that they would be righteous.

 

[Eden]

(cont’d)

But the pre-eminence of the Church, as the principle of union, is, in its oneness, in this surpassing all things else, and having nothing like or equal to itself. But of this afterwards.
Of the heresies, some receive their appellation from a [person’s] name, as that which is called after Valentinus, and that after Marcion, and that after Basilides, although they boast of adducing the opinion of Matthew [without truth]; for as the teaching, so also the tradition of the apostles was one. Some take their designation from a place, as the Peratici; some from a nation, as the [heresy] of the Phrygians; some from an action, as that of the Encratites; and some from peculiar dogmas, as that of the Docetae, and that of the Harmatites; and some from suppositions, and from individuals they have honoured, as those called Cainists, and the Ophians; and some from nefarious practices and enormities, as those of the Simonians called Entychites.

He sure mentions the unity of the Church and the tradition of the one Church (coming from the apostles) a lot in this document. I’m sure Mr. Svendsen was hoping you wouldn’t go consult the original document and find those references to tradition.

 

[Mannyfit75]

I have found many discrepancies… shall I lie about that?
It wouldn’t be real Christian of me would it?

Discrepancies on Scripture Catholic? For one, you are not Catholic so you do not held the views on that website. What credit would you have as a Non-Catholic Christian on a Catholic Apologetic Website?

Many Catholic Apologists here agree with Scripture Catholic, and other websites that support the Catholic Church view on Jesus Christ’s teachings. What you preceived as lies are misunderstandings, or the lack to acknowledge the fullness of Truth, which the Church is the Pillar and Bulwark of the Truth. What is the Truth? Jesus Christ. He founded the One Church, and appointed Apostles, and gave them authority. The Apostles themselves handed their authority to their successors.

This one Church is the Catholic Church, which received its teachings orally, and by writing (Scripture). I don’t believe Jesus would lie to his Church. Jesus promised Peter, “the Gates of Hell shall not prevail against it.”

I trust Jesus’ promise on what the Truth is. If you do claim that there are lies in the website, then you might as well as called Jesus a liar.

The website like I said gives a Catholic point of view and Our beliefs. It’s been like that for over 2,000 yrs.