The church the fulfillment of Judaism?

[reggieM]

Agreed! If sacrifices are not the main means of atonement then why would we need an atoning sacrifice for all sin?

The importance of sacrifices is not limited to atonement.
It confirms a covenant with God or as thanksgiving - as Abraham, Moses, Noah, Melchisedec.
It’s a public,external offering for the people, whereas repentance is private and individual.
Christ’s offering was not personal and individual but a sacrifice offered for all.

 

[ZenFred]

The importance of sacrifices is not limited to atonement.
It confirms a covenant with God or as thanksgiving - as Abraham, Moses, Noah, Melchisedec.
It’s a public,external offering for the people, whereas repentance is private and individual.
Christ’s offering was not personal and individual but a sacrifice offered for all.

That’s a nice point and I think describes what Jesus is saying at the last supper. It’s less about individual justification and more about a new convenant with all who wish to partake.
Personally I don’t care for heavy emphasis on personal justification/salvation. I know God is good and I have faith in Him. That gives me certainty that I’m going to heaven, if it exists. I say if because I’m more worried by general doubt and there is no afterlife than there being a God and heaven but He won’t let me in. I’m more interested in living a life of holiness that brings me peace and is a life worth living in the meantime.

Btw. I was reading the Catholic church’s position on the sabbath vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s2c1a3.htm
It’s great!!!
I think my observance/commandment centered theology and practice is much more complimentary to Catholic thinking than Protestantism. I don’t think you have to be Jewish in your observances of the commandments, I find it meaningful, but if you aren’t your best off with a catholic or Eastern Orthodox approach that takes the commandments seriously.

 

[po18guy]

You can read the spiritual journeys of Jewish converts to Catholicism here:
hebrewcatholic.net/hc-individuals/

 

[reggieM]

I think my observance/commandment centered theology and practice is much more complimentary to Catholic thinking than Protestantism.

Agreed, far more complimentary.
Another important point that might answer your question about Judaism, is that Catholicism is essentially a religion of a community - not of a book. The Catholic Church is a visible body of believers, as we believe, established by God. This is similar to the Jewish view, although as you pointed out, it is difficult to find what is “true Judiasm”. It’s the Catholic believe that the “Jewish family” that God created, was extended to the Catholic Church, as Jesus established it. So, we trace our roots to Jewish-Christian communities led by the apostles.

This is much different than the personalistic Protestant view which is often reduced to just the individual and the Bible.

That gives me certainty that I’m going to heaven, if it exists. I say if because I’m more worried by general doubt and there is no afterlife than there being a God and heaven but He won’t let me in. I’m more interested in living a life of holiness that brings me peace and is a life worth living in the meantime.

That life of holiness and virtue is the sure-path. It surprised people at His time, when Jesus praised and found holiness in people outside of the Jewish community - but it tells us that God enlightens and cares for everyone and draws us all towards Himself.

 

[reggieM]

I’m a mixed breed, a mongrel, so to speak LOL. When a child, I was raised in a Conservative home and attended an Orthodox synagogue. Today I identify as a Reform Jew with Conservative leanings.

Thanks for sharing that!
Just curious …
How would Reform Judiasm answer your question as presented?:

Finally, G-d repeatedly proclaims throughout the Law that His commandments are not subject to time but rather are eternal and should be maintained by the people from generation to generation unto eternity. How can such quite definitive language on the part of G-d Himself be regarded as a temporary developmental stage which will evolve into something fuller later on, unless G-d was deceiving us or just joking?

 

[meltzerboy]

Thanks for sharing that!
Just curious …
How would Reform Judiasm answer your question as presented?:

Reform Judaism takes the words of Hillel the Elder, which were echoed by Jesus, quite seriously. That is, and I paraphrase: the Law consists of essentially two commandments: love G-d with all thy heart, soul, and mind, and love thy neighbor. All the rest is commentary. For Reform Judaism, the details of the commandments are the commentary. They are therefore important only in relation to how they are based on loving G-d and loving one another.

That said, there is a movement afoot within Reform circles to bring back more of the rituals of worship and observance than was present before. It is because these outward symbols reflect internal signs of grace and sanctification.

 

[reggieM]

Reform Judaism takes the words of Hillel the Elder, which were echoed by Jesus, quite seriously. That is, and I paraphrase: the Law consists of essentially two commandments: love G-d with all thy heart, soul, and mind, and love thy neighbor. All the rest is commentary. For Reform Judaism, the details of the commandments are the commentary. They are therefore important only in relation to how they are based on loving G-d and loving one another.

Interesting, thanks. That’s similar to the Catholic view in many ways although we have a set of definitions beyond the two great commandments.

That said, there is a movement afoot within Reform circles to bring back more of the rituals of worship and observance than was present before. It is because these outward symbols reflect internal signs of grace and sanctification.

I’m noticing more of an emphasis on spiritual practices and recovering mystical writings of the past. At least from my limited experience and reading of contemporary Reform Judiasm teachers - so that would seem to fit with a return to symbolism and observance also.

 

[James248]

Hello
On a previous post someone said
“Catholicism, properly understood, is a fulfillment of Judaism.”

What does the church mean by this?

I would say Jesus is the fulfillment of Judaism because:

1. He is the messiah of Judaism who was an observant Jew, spoke in a Jewish context and preached primarily to the Jews.
2. Jesus’ teachings are on a reform of Torah observance emphasizing compassion over legalism, inclusion over purity and critiquing hypocrisy and idolatry. But not abolishing Torah observance.
3. Jesus sees himself as a atoning sacrifice using parallels of the sacrificial system.

All true. But you must remember that the Law of Moses NEVER have power to make one pure. Jesus is the fulfillment of the Old Law and the New Moses who gives us Grace in place of Grace. The Law came through Moses but Grace and Truth through Jesus Christ.
On your second point, Jesus’s commandment to do unto others as we would have them do unto us supersedes the whole moral precepts of the Law. He said that what comes out of the mouth defiles, not what goes in. As for sacrifice, what the priests of the Old Law did for many years, Christ did once and for all. The Law was a tutor to keep us in line until Christ. Christ has come: there is no need for a tutor

The wider Christian church in contrast (some far worse than others) is throughly gentile and has abandoned the roots of Judaism. Protestantism in general teaches cheap grace or easy justification and looses the value of observing the law. I do believe we are saved (from hell after death) by God alone. But what of sanctification?
The Catholic Church is much stronger in this regard in taking seriously the call to moral and devotional obedience. They uplift saints as examples of a holy life, foster prayer centered rule of life and recognize the role of disciplines prayer as a service of the church to the world, they don’t dismiss sin and transgressions and sweep them under the rug.
So if any church were to fulfill Judiasm it would certainty not be the evangelicals nor the mainline Protestants.

Protestants are right in that we aren’t justified by the works of the Law, or by any works we do. But once we are justified we must cooperate with God and do good works.