The Church & WWII

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From an online conversation with him tonight:

**Me **[After providing several of the articles you all provided me]: The first satisfied the most. You can say it’s biased, but everything is sourced and cited.
Him: Everything is always bias, but I’m content with the information you’ve given me. I stand corrected.

:eek:👍👍👍
 
I am accustomed to my Baptist boyfriend questioning and usually disagreeing with all things Catholic but last night we really got into it when he said that the Church did nothing about World War II and the holocaust.

Whether Pope Pius XII did nothing or saved the whole world, I have no qualms because I have always felt like, "What was he supposed
to do?" Geesh.

I was wondering if anyone could point me to any sources of information about what the Church did do during this period or if anyone could give me the words to argue against this long-standing claim.

Thanks so much.He’s out in left field on this one…
I have a pretty well sourced article on my blog which you can find at…
Someone Has Lied to You About Our Pope Pius XII
 
That’s very interesting YADA, thank you!

I forgot to answer the question about where my boyfriend got this information about: He’s a history major and claimed that “every history book ever written” will say that the Catholic Church was MIA during WWII. :mad:
Then ask him where those same sources say all the n-C communities were during the Holocaust? Where was the U.S. government? Britain? Anyone else? :rolleyes:

Ask him if St. Maximilian Kolbe was martyred in Auschwitz for nothing. How about St. Edith Stein?
 
I am accustomed to my Baptist boyfriend questioning and usually disagreeing with all things Catholic but last night we really got into it when he said that the Church did nothing about World War II and the holocaust.

Whether Pope Pius XII did nothing or saved the whole world, I have no qualms because I have always felt like, “What was he supposed to do?” Geesh.

I was wondering if anyone could point me to any sources of information about what the Church did do during this period or if anyone could give me the words to argue against this long-standing claim.

Thanks so much.
No one wants to admit the Catholic church did anything to help the Jews durring WWII, because well everyone wants to beleive Catholics hate jews.

For the truth, I recommend you read this:
Yours Is a Precious Witness: Memoirs of Jews and Catholics in Wartime Italy

The story of how the Catholic Church saved countless jews in Italy, also of how the Vatican uniformly opposed everything Nazi. In truth, Western Diplomats became quite fustrated with the Vatican in the run up to the war, because the Vatican was the only diplomatic party present at negotiations that refused any compramise with Hitler. There are telegrams of US diplmats stating (paraphrasing here)

“The Vatican regards the Nazi’s as wholly evil, and will not compramise on any point”. When I have time (might take some time, I’m usually pretty busy) i’ll see if I can’t dig up the specific sources. But for now, I recommend that book to you.
 
Thanks so much for all of your helpful replies and especially the links and book recommendations! I’ll definitely check all of this stuff out.

For those of you that suggested I ask him what the Baptist leader (is there even one???) did, I did in some form: I asked him what the 30,000+ protestant denominations did. He said as a consolidated religion with a hierarchical system, the Church should have done more, to which I said, “Isn’t that one reason protestants left the Church to begin with? So you think an authoritative head of religion is bad until you need him to help you?” Cue irrational ultra-defensive arguments ;).
Good response!

It is estimated that the Church saved some 800,000 Jews during the war. But there’s always somebody who declares, from the lofty safety of time and distance, that the Church should have saved 801,000 Jews. What do you do with such people?
 
From an online conversation with him tonight:

**Me **[After providing several of the articles you all provided me]: The first satisfied the most. You can say it’s biased, but everything is sourced and cited.
Him: Everything is always bias, but I’m content with the information you’ve given me. I stand corrected.

:eek:👍👍👍
Good, he has intellectual integrity. Now he just needs to re-examine everything else he thinks he knows about Catholicism. 🙂
 
Since your boyfriend is Baptist, he’s probably read or at least heard of The Hiding Place by Corrie ten Boom.

For those who don’t know, this marvelous book is the story of the ten Boom family, a Dutch Reformed family who worked in the Underground Resistance Movement and saved hundreds of Jews. They were betrayed, arrested, and sent to prison. The 80-year-old Papa died ten days after his arrest. The 60-year old sister Betsie and Corrie, who was around 50 years old at the time, along with Willem, their older brother, were all sent to prison. Other teenagers in the family also went to prison.

Betsie died in Ravensbruck. Willem survived prison, but contracted TB and died a few years later. Corrie lived well into her 80s and spoke all over the world telling people that “no pit is so deep that God is not deeper still.”

The book is a must-read for all Christians, not just Protestants. It will make your faith expand exponentially.

In The Hiding Place, in Chapter 13, Corrie describes how she and her sister lead a nightly Bible study (using a Bible that God miraculously provides). She also describes what happens whenever she has to take Betsie to the “clinic.” “NIghts when Betsie and I reported to sick call we left the Bible with Mrs. Wielmaker, a saintly Roman Catholic woman from The Hague who could render the Dutch words in German, French, Latin, or Greek.”

In Chapter 13, Corrie describes the Bible studies: “They were services like no others, these times in Barracks 28. A single meeting might include a recital of the Magnificat in Latin by a group of Roman Catholics, a whispered hymn by some Lutherans, and a sotto-voce chant by Eastern Orthodox women.”

I’m quoting these because it is obvious when reading this and any other first-hand accounts of concentration camp survivors that there were plenty of Catholics imprisoned, and many of them were imprisoned for “political crimes,” i.e., helping Jews. The Germans kept very meticulous records of all their prisoners, and there are plenty of Catholics on the lists.

Catholics, just like all Christians in those hard times, risked their lives to obey God rather than men.

BTW, I, too, recommend Ronald Rychlak’s excellent book, Hitler The War and the Pope. Very thoroughly-documented and scholarly, but it’s fairly easy-to-read for the non-historian. The Footnotes run from page 313-page 444! And the Bibliography is 23 pages long! It’s not light-weight and fluffy.
 
From an online conversation with him tonight:

**Me **[After providing several of the articles you all provided me]: The first satisfied the most. You can say it’s biased, but everything is sourced and cited.
Him: Everything is always bias, but I’m content with the information you’ve given me. I stand corrected.

:eek:👍👍👍
Woohoo a reasonable rational response to facts.

Yeah!

Chuck
 
I think there are two ways to go. The first way to go is the way of the Vatican’s Commission for Religious Relations with the Jews-“We remember- A Reflection on the Shoah”. Now the commission admits that there was horrendous religious anti-Semitism but it claims that the anti-Semitism of the Shoah was racial-nationalistic anti-Semitism and the Catholic Church has always condemned this type of anti-Semitism, ergo, the attitudes and persecutions of the Catholic Church have nothing to with the Shoah. To this we can add recent efforts of the Vatican to equate the genocide of the Jews in the Shoah as an act against Christianity.

Now going this way has its definite advantages if you are a Catholic and it definitely saves you from taking a long hard look at some not so pleasant things. However the problem with this tact is the same problem that Catholic apologists have when they try to explain and justify the forced removal from his family and the forced conversion of Edgardo Mortara. Everyone, except for these Catholic apologists, understands that what was done to Edgardo, a six year old Jewish boy, was not a moral acceptable act. In the same way, everyone knows and understands that along with the many Catholic righteous gentiles who risked their lives and even gave their lives to save Jews, many Catholics were actively engaged in carrying out the Shoah against the Jews and no, they were not making internal redefinitions of the source of their anti-Semitism.

So the other way to go is to have a serious examination and discussion - not to appropriate blame but to learn from the past so that we are not destined to repeat it. To start this examination I don’t think you have to jump right in and start a discussion about what Pope Pius XII did do or didn’t do to help the Jews.

Rather some starting points to begin to understand might be:

Catholic attitudes toward the Wiemar Republic and how those attitudes were connected to Catholic attitudes toward Jews

The ideas contained in Katholizismus and Vaterland by Father Erhard Schuland

The Catholic dominated Zentrum party and the reasons behind their crucial vote in favor of the Hitler enabling act

The Reichskonkordat especially the meaning and ramifications of article 16

The cooperation of the Catholic Church in providing Church records to affirm that civil servants were not Jewish

Archbishop Konrad Grober

Bishop Hilfrich

Father Charles E. Coughlin and Catholic hate radio (see also the magazine Social Justice)

Jedwabne Poland July 1941

Kielce Poland July 1946

L’Affaire Finaly - the Finaly Brothers affair
 
I think there are two ways to go. The first way to go is the way of the Vatican’s Commission for Religious Relations with the Jews-“We remember- A Reflection on the Shoah”. Now the commission admits that there was horrendous religious anti-Semitism but it claims that the anti-Semitism of the Shoah was racial-nationalistic anti-Semitism and the Catholic Church has always condemned this type of anti-Semitism, ergo, the attitudes and persecutions of the Catholic Church have nothing to with the Shoah. To this we can add recent efforts of the Vatican to equate the genocide of the Jews in the Shoah as an act against Christianity.

Now going this way has its definite advantages if you are a Catholic and it definitely saves you from taking a long hard look at some not so pleasant things. However the problem with this tact is the same problem that Catholic apologists have when they try to explain and justify the forced removal from his family and the forced conversion of Edgardo Mortara. Everyone, except for these Catholic apologists, understands that what was done to Edgardo, a six year old Jewish boy, was not a moral acceptable act. In the same way, everyone knows and understands that along with the many Catholic righteous gentiles who risked their lives and even gave their lives to save Jews, many Catholics were actively engaged in carrying out the Shoah against the Jews and no, they were not making internal redefinitions of the source of their anti-Semitism.

So the other way to go is to have a serious examination and discussion - not to appropriate blame but to learn from the past so that we are not destined to repeat it. To start this examination I don’t think you have to jump right in and start a discussion about what Pope Pius XII did do or didn’t do to help the Jews.

Rather some starting points to begin to understand might be:

Catholic attitudes toward the Wiemar Republic and how those attitudes were connected to Catholic attitudes toward Jews

The ideas contained in Katholizismus and Vaterland by Father Erhard Schuland

The Catholic dominated Zentrum party and the reasons behind their crucial vote in favor of the Hitler enabling act

The Reichskonkordat especially the meaning and ramifications of article 16

The cooperation of the Catholic Church in providing Church records to affirm that civil servants were not Jewish

Archbishop Konrad Grober

Bishop Hilfrich

Father Charles E. Coughlin and Catholic hate radio (see also the magazine Social Justice)

Jedwabne Poland July 1941

Kielce Poland July 1946

L’Affaire Finaly - the Finaly Brothers affair
Are you going to provide a list of positive actions taken by individual Catholics so we can “learn” from those as well or can we only “learn” from enumerated list of negative actions?

Chuck
 
Are you going to provide a list of positive actions taken by individual Catholics so we can “learn” from those as well or can we only “learn” from enumerated list of negative actions?

Chuck
Just as it is an error against truth to look at a thing through rose-colored glasses, so it is also an error against truth to look at a thing through manure-colored glasses.

The original claim reported by the OP was the the Catholic Church “did nothing about World War II and the holocaust”. The proper response to such a claim would involve demonstrating what the Catholic Church did do, which was clearly not “nothing”.

I would like chosen people to tell us how many Jews were assisted during the war by the Catholic Church or by individual Catholics. And I would like to ask him how many should have been assisted.
 
I think there are two ways to go. The first way to go is the way of the Vatican’s Commission for Religious Relations with the Jews-“We remember- A Reflection on the Shoah”. Now the commission admits that there was horrendous religious anti-Semitism but it claims that the anti-Semitism of the Shoah was racial-nationalistic anti-Semitism and the Catholic Church has always condemned this type of anti-Semitism, ergo, the attitudes and persecutions of the Catholic Church have nothing to with the Shoah. To this we can add recent efforts of the Vatican to equate the genocide of the Jews in the Shoah as an act against Christianity.

Now going this way has its definite advantages if you are a Catholic and it definitely saves you from taking a long hard look at some not so pleasant things. However the problem with this tact is the same problem that Catholic apologists have when they try to explain and justify the forced removal from his family and the forced conversion of Edgardo Mortara. Everyone, except for these Catholic apologists, understands that what was done to Edgardo, a six year old Jewish boy, was not a moral acceptable act. In the same way, everyone knows and understands that along with the many Catholic righteous gentiles who risked their lives and even gave their lives to save Jews, many Catholics were actively engaged in carrying out the Shoah against the Jews and no, they were not making internal redefinitions of the source of their anti-Semitism.

So the other way to go is to have a serious examination and discussion - not to appropriate blame but to learn from the past so that we are not destined to repeat it. To start this examination I don’t think you have to jump right in and start a discussion about what Pope Pius XII did do or didn’t do to help the Jews.

Rather some starting points to begin to understand might be:

Catholic attitudes toward the Wiemar Republic and how those attitudes were connected to Catholic attitudes toward Jews

The ideas contained in Katholizismus and Vaterland by Father Erhard Schuland

The Catholic dominated Zentrum party and the reasons behind their crucial vote in favor of the Hitler enabling act

The Reichskonkordat especially the meaning and ramifications of article 16

The cooperation of the Catholic Church in providing Church records to affirm that civil servants were not Jewish

Archbishop Konrad Grober

Bishop Hilfrich

Father Charles E. Coughlin and Catholic hate radio (see also the magazine Social Justice)

Jedwabne Poland July 1941

Kielce Poland July 1946

L’Affaire Finaly - the Finaly Brothers affair
If you want to start a separate thread, go ahead. The original question was asked and answered.

Peace,
Ed
 
If you want to start a separate thread, go ahead. The original question was asked and answered.

Peace,
Ed
Well if we are talking a counter view to the books and articles cited here then the book is The Popes against the Jews - the Vatican’s role in the rise of modern anti-Semitism by David I. Kertzer.
 
Well if we are talking a counter view to the books and articles cited here then the book is The Popes against the Jews - the Vatican’s role in the rise of modern anti-Semitism by David I. Kertzer.
“But The Pope Against the Jews is a one-sided case for the prosecution, distorting the central antimodernist ideology of the Catholic Church in this period into something that it clearly was not.” – William D. Rubinstein

– Mark L. Chance.
 
“But The Pope Against the Jews is a one-sided case for the prosecution, distorting the central antimodernist ideology of the Catholic Church in this period into something that it clearly was not.” – William D. Rubinstein

– Mark L. Chance.
Well actually the book was a finalist for the Mark Lynton history prize, its author is a professor of anthropology and Italian studies at Brown University. He is a double recipient of the Marraro Prize and the book has received numerous positive critical reviews praising this very important book. However you do not have to read the book itself. You can read Catholic newspapers form France,Austria, and Germany from the last two decades of the 19th Century expounding of Jewish ritual murder or the book The mystery of the blood among the Jews by the priest Henri Desportes or his book Killed by the Jews or the twenty six articles on Jewish ritual murder published at that time in Civilta Cattolica or the praise for those articles by the Vatican daily L’Osservatore romano to learn how only decades before the Shoah the Catholic Church and its adherents were promoting the idea of Jewish ritual murder. Of course if you think Kertzer is being one sided or distorting facts I can only offer an opinion that perhaps the charge of ritual murder by the Jews is a complete fabrication and anti-Semitic myth? That it is one example of “distortion” and a one sided case" - not by Kertzer- but by its proponents discussed in his book?
 
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