The Church

[ibetrippin07]

I have several posts on this topic to make as its a lengthy subject so if replies could please hold off until i have posted all i have to say i would greatly appreciate it! feel free to analyze though!
I think it would serve well if there was a separate topic to define what the “church” really is. It seems ever so claimed for some reason beyond me that the “catholic church” was told this or the “catholic church” started this. Yet it wasnt even the catholic church that started anything. it was the JEWISH APOSTLES.
The first covenant made with Abraham was given to the Jews and this was the establishment of Israel as his “holy nation”
Then the law was given to Moses
Then we are told of a new covenant comming:
2 samuel 12
“When your days are fulfilled and you rest with your fathers, I will set up your seed after you, who will come from your body, and I will establish his kingdom” further could be quoted here but you get the gist.
Then it happened and is explained here:
Hebrews 8:8-13
New International Version (NIV)
8 But God found fault with the people and said[a]:

“The days are coming, declares the Lord,
when I will make a new covenant
with the people of Israel
and with the people of Judah.
9 It will not be like the covenant
I made with their ancestors
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they did not remain faithful to my covenant,
and I turned away from them,
declares the Lord.
10 This is the covenant I will establish with the people of Israel
after that time, declares the Lord.
I will put my laws in their minds
and write them on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
11 No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest.
12 For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more.”**

13 By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.

NOTE: nothing of tradition is mentioned, it is just said no one will need to say know the Lord because the law is in their hearts and their sins are forgiven!
and from communion which we have already discussed
1 Corinthians 11:25-26
New International Version (NIV)
25 In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me.” 26 For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes.

So who is recieving this awesomeness?
Romans 1:16
New International Version (NIV)
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile.
Romans 2:10 but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile.
So whats going down?
Matthew 10:18-23
English Standard Version (ESV)
18(A) and you will be dragged before governors and kings for my sake,(B) to bear witness before them and the Gentiles. 19(C) When(D) they deliver you over,(E) do not be anxious how you are to speak or what you are to say, for(F) what you are to say will be given to you in that hour. 20(G) For it is not you who speak, but(H) the Spirit of your Father speaking through you. 21(I) Brother will deliver brother over to death, and the father his child, and children will rise against parents and have them put to death, 22(J) and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake.(K) But the one who endures to the end will be saved. 23When they(L) persecute you in one town,(M) flee to the next, for truly, I say to you, you will not have gone through all the towns of Israel(N) before the Son of Man comes.
notice he makes a distinction from the person being told this and the gentiles. the apostles are not Catholics, they are messianic Jews or really just regular Jews. the only reason i make the mention of messianic Jews is because the “Jews” of today do not recognize Jesus for whatever reason that be.**

 

[ibetrippin07]

The following scripture will demonstrate and maybe put an end to this nonsense that the apostles had some sort of “authority” to do something other than what was already written. every man has the same opportunity to do the same things the apostles did.
Luke 10:1-17
New International Version (NIV)
Luke 10

Jesus Sends Out the Seventy-Two

1 After this the Lord appointed seventy-two[a] others and sent them two by two ahead of him to every town and place where he was about to go. 2 He told them, “The harvest is plentiful, but the workers are few. Ask the Lord of the harvest, therefore, to send out workers into his harvest field. 3 Go! I am sending you out like lambs among wolves. 4 Do not take a purse or bag or sandals; and do not greet anyone on the road.
5 “When you enter a house, first say, ‘Peace to this house.’ 6 If someone who promotes peace is there, your peace will rest on them; if not, it will return to you. 7 Stay there, eating and drinking whatever they give you, for the worker deserves his wages. Do not move around from house to house.

8 “When you enter a town and are welcomed, eat what is offered to you. 9 Heal the sick who are there and tell them, ‘The kingdom of God has come near to you.’ 10 But when you enter a town and are not welcomed, go into its streets and say, 11 ‘Even the dust of your town we wipe from our feet as a warning to you. Yet be sure of this: The kingdom of God has come near.’ 12 I tell you, it will be more bearable on that day for Sodom than for that town.

13 “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago, sitting in sackcloth and ashes. 14 But it will be more bearable for Tyre and Sidon at the judgment than for you. 15 And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted to the heavens? No, you will go down to Hades.**

16 “Whoever listens to you listens to me; whoever rejects you rejects me; but whoever rejects me rejects him who sent me.”

17 The seventy-two returned with joy and said, “Lord, even the demons submit to us in your name.”
Now if we put all this together we can say that there was an established agreement if you will between God and the Jews because of Abraham. The law was bestowed to them. Jesus came back to them and was rejected by what should have been his own people (luke 4). Thankfully though many of them came to their senses and accepted Jesus as who he really was.
catholics received nothing, they are nothing special and have no more authority to say the bible says something than james white does…, the only thing God cares about is that you follow him and give yourself to him ENTIRELY.

So lets look at the instances of “church” in the NT.
one starts with something we are all very familiar with and im sure everyone will argue me on this till the bitter end but
Matthew 16:18
18 And I tell you that you are Peter,[a] and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades** will not overcome it.
^regardless of peter being the rock and what not it is quite clear that there is no structure of physical means being made. unless of course the gates of hades are literally coming to earth one day and peter is not a living organism but a physical rock…

Matthew 18:17
17 If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.
^again tell it to the church is referring to people of some kind. The church of rome was also not established so clearly in this case as well it is a group of believers. Note it was not said bring it to the apostles because they do not have this godly authority everyone assumes they have.

Acts 2:47
47 praising God and enjoying the favor of all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily those who were being saved.
^another instance where more is being added to the BELIEVERS numbers not the size of a structure.

Acts 14:23
23 Paul and Barnabas appointed elders[a] for them in each church and, with prayer and fasting, committed them to the Lord, in whom they had put their trust.
^while i can see a fair argument for the building church here it is also equally as arguable that he is placing elders as heads of the different groups of believers.

1 Corinthians 11:22
22 Don’t you have homes to eat and drink in? Or do you despise the church of God by humiliating those who have nothing? What shall I say to you? Shall I praise you? Certainly not in this matter!
^I dont even see an argument for anything outside of Gods people who are no longer called the “jews” but the “church”****

 

[ibetrippin07]

1 Corinthians 15:9
9 For I am the least of the apostles and do not even deserve to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.
^so we know you cant really persecute a building, but you can persecute Gods people the “church”

Ephesians 1:22-23
22 And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, 23 which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.
^just a reaffirming that Christ is the head of everything in church. He provides everything.

Ephesians 3:10
10 His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms,
^the people not the place where they meet. Its why we are told to go and make disciples of all nations.

Ephesians 5:25-31
25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26 to make her holy, cleansing[a] her by the washing with water through the word, 27 and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. 28 In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29 After all, no one ever hated their own body, but they feed and care for their body, just as Christ does the church— 30 for we are members of his body. 31 “For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.”
^This is basically what Im getting at here.

Phil 4:15
“Now you Philippians know also that in the beginning of the gospel, when I departed from Macedonia, no church shared with me concerning giving and receiving but you only.”
so here it is arguable church is a building. clearly hes talking about different churches and if we are ALL THE CHURCH how could some receive and some not? well i think that answer lies in the reasoning for so many denominations.

Colossians 1:24
24 Now I rejoice in what I am suffering for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ’s afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church
^This is possibly the most clear evidence the church IS NOT any specific location but a body of Christ.

1 Timothy 3:15
15 if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God’s household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.

1 Timothy 5:16
16 If any woman who is a believer has widows in her care, she should continue to help them and not let the church be burdened with them, so that the church can help those widows who are really in need.

Hebrews 12:23
\23 to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the Judge of all, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect,
^I still see no argument for the catholic church being the whole enchilada as it were…

Revelation 2:1
1 “To the angel[a] of the church in Ephesus write:
These are the words of him who holds the seven stars in his right hand and walks among the seven golden lampstands.
^different believers at different locations. This group being address is in Ephesus.

Acts 15:41
41 He went through Syria and Cilicia, strengthening the churches.
^if its all one church why does he refer to them in the plural? maybe because they are two different groups of the body!

Romans 16:16
16 Greet one another with a holy kiss.

All the churches of Christ send greetings.
^why not just “The Church” send greetings? I thought there were no little groups of people using sola scriptura?

1 Thessalonians 2:14
14 For you, brothers and sisters, became imitators of God’s churches in Judea, which are in Christ Jesus: You suffered from your own people the same things those churches suffered from the Jews
^what about the church in rome? There are different churches and this one in Judea is getting it right and this group of people the Thessalonians i believe it is are imitating this particular church.

In revelations several different churches are given different letters. If they are one authoritative church why did this happen???

My ultimate point here is to demonstrate the mootness of “the catholics had this first or did that first” it does not matter because before the catholics were alot of other churches that have been praised in the NT. THESE are the ORIGINAL churches. They are groups of people who followed Christ!

ok thank you for your patience. This is all i have to point out! I welcome all kinds of feedback

 

[fhansen]

the apostles are not Catholics, they are messianic Jews or really just regular Jews. the only reason i make the mention of messianic Jews is because the “Jews” of today do not recognize Jesus for whatever reason that be.

So you’re saying the apostles and their followers did not comprise the early Church? And if they did comprise it, why/how do you think it’s different from the Catholic Church, which historically flows in continuous manner from the beginning?

 

[TimothyH]

I’s really no fun being beaten over the head with Bible verses. Instead of using the Bible like a fire hose and trying to drown Catholics, why don’t you pick a verse or two and lets talk about it?

So lets look at the instances of “church” in the NT.
one starts with something we are all very familiar with and im sure everyone will argue me on this till the bitter end but
Matthew 16:18
18 And I tell you that you are Peter,[a] and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades** will not overcome it.
^regardless of peter being the rock and what not it is quite clear that there is no structure of physical means being made. unless of course the gates of hades are literally coming to earth one day and peter is not a living organism but a physical rock…**

Let’s take a look at history and the use of the phrase “The rock” in jewish literature. .

“The Rock” in Jewish literature, including the Bible, often refered to the foundation stone upon which the Jewish temple in Jerusalem was built. To the Jews, the temple was the center of the universe, located half way between Heaven and Hell. Jewish tradition held that the rock upon which the temple was built capped off a long passage which led down to “The Pit” or Sheol, the dark abode of the dead. The rock therefor, was what prevented the confusion, error and death of Hades from entering the world. The temple where God dwelled among men was on top of this rock to prevent the gates of hades from entering to the human realm. This was the Jewish view of “The Rock” and that was what Jesus was referencing.

So your statement about there being no physical structure is just plain wrong. Jesus was making a clear reference to the rock upon which the structure of the Jewish Church - Solomon’s Temple - was built. It’s a clear reference to a foundation and an elaborate a nd very beatiful building.

-Tim-

 

[CalCatholic]

Your argument about there being a bunch of different Churches in the first century so therefore there could not have been a Catholic Church in the beginning, doesn’t make any sense. Today there are Catholic Churches all over the world in almost every country and despite being of different nations,cultures and languages, they are still one Church. That one Christian Church in the first century had to distinguish itself from some of the heretical sects (Gnosticism) that were popping up during the first century and still referring to themselves as Christian. Ignatius of Antioch (before he was martyred in 107 AD), referred to the name of this one Christian Church as the Catholic Church, as it was the one universal Church, which is what catholic means.

 

[thequeen]

Well if you will look at history That will give you a clue that The Catholic Church was founded by Christ and has a unbroken line of succession from the apostles all the protestant religions came from the reformation and the Church that was instituted by Christ and the apostles has four identifying factors One Holy Catholic Apostolic One meaning that there is only one not many churches Holy meaning that it was Founded By our Lord an Saviour Jesus Christ Catholic meaning that it is universal it can be found in all Countries on the planet and whether they are of the Latin Roman right or the Eastern right Catholic that is in union with Rome They are one Church Apostolic meaning that there has been an unbroken line of succession to the Papacy from Saint Peter who was the first pope to the present Pope Benedict xvi.

 

[ESMDHokie77]

I’s really no fun being beaten over the head with Bible verses. Instead of using the Bible like a fire hose and trying to drown Catholics, why don’t you pick a verse or two and lets talk about it?

Haha, funny imagery popped into my head when reading this. Indeed.

^what about the church in rome? There are different churches and this one in Judea is getting it right and this group of people the Thessalonians i believe it is are imitating this particular church.

In revelations several different churches are given different letters. If they are one authoritative church why did this happen???

My ultimate point here is to demonstrate the mootness of “the catholics had this first or did that first” it does not matter because before the catholics were alot of other churches that have been praised in the NT. THESE are the ORIGINAL churches. They are groups of people who followed Christ!

ok thank you for your patience. This is all i have to point out! I welcome all kinds of feedback

You’re trippin’ all over the place. These Christians in different locations were all a part of the Catholic Church, and they all needed grooming and correcting in order to be truly Christian, (read that as, TRULY CATHOLIC).

 

[ibetrippin07]

So you’re saying the apostles and their followers did not comprise the early Church? And if they did comprise it, why/how do you think it’s different from the Catholic Church, which historically flows in continuous manner from the beginning?

Im saying that the argument i constantly seen thrown around here is “our church did it from the beginning!” or “the apostles were the catholic fathers”. Yet biblical speaking this is simply not the case, the catholic church came after many other churches that clearly are mentioned in the NT and are regarded in high favor with the Lord. Unless the CC position is that it sprang from one of these churches but I dont think thats it.

 

[ibetrippin07]

I’s really no fun being beaten over the head with Bible verses. Instead of using the Bible like a fire hose and trying to drown Catholics, why don’t you pick a verse or two and lets talk about it?

Lets go through each one then!

Let’s take a look at history and the use of the phrase “The rock” in jewish literature. .

 

[ibetrippin07]

Your argument about there being a bunch of different Churches in the first century so therefore there could not have been a Catholic Church in the beginning, doesn’t make any sense. Today there are Catholic Churches all over the world in almost every country and despite being of different nations,cultures and languages, they are still one Church. That one Christian Church in the first century had to distinguish itself from some of the heretical sects (Gnosticism) that were popping up during the first century and still referring to themselves as Christian. Ignatius of Antioch (before he was martyred in 107 AD), referred to the name of this one Christian Church as the Catholic Church, as it was the one universal Church, which is what catholic means.

1 Thessalonians 2:14
14 For you, brothers and sisters, became imitators of God’s churches in Judea, which are in Christ Jesus: You suffered from your own people the same things those churches suffered from the Jews

Im not saying there wasnt a group of churches that united and may have became known as the “catholic church” and then developed their own doctrines but there is no evidence the catholics started in judea, at least that Im aware of.

 

[ibetrippin07]

Well if you will look at history That will give you a clue that The Catholic Church was founded by Christ and has a unbroken line of succession from the apostles all the protestant religions came from the reformation and the Church that was instituted by Christ and the apostles has four identifying factors One Holy Catholic Apostolic One meaning that there is only one not many churches Holy meaning that it was Founded By our Lord an Saviour Jesus Christ Catholic meaning that it is universal it can be found in all Countries on the planet and whether they are of the Latin Roman right or the Eastern right Catholic that is in union with Rome They are one Church Apostolic meaning that there has been an unbroken line of succession to the Papacy from Saint Peter who was the first pope to the present Pope Benedict xvi.

So what are you saying? Peter started one church and no other churches existed? You can have all the unbroken lineage you want, but this does not mean after Peter that this church was just as right as when it first started…

 

[ibetrippin07]

Haha, funny imagery popped into my head when reading this. Indeed.

You’re trippin’ all over the place. These Christians in different locations were all a part of the Catholic Church, and they all needed grooming and correcting in order to be truly Christian, (read that as, TRULY CATHOLIC).

I thought peter started the church though? Or do you guys not believe peter started the church?

 

[dogknox]

The Catholic Church GREW by Baptism! Baptism ADDS people to the Body of Jesus!!!
NO protestant church accepts “Baptism”, all claim baptism is symbolic!

PROVING beyond all doubt, the Early Church is the Catholic Church! All the Early Church Father’s baptized to ADD people to the Body of Jesus!!
Right after Pentecost, Peter "**ADDED **3000 people to the Body of Jesus by BAPTISM!!

**Acts 2:40 **
With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, “Save yourselves from this corrupt generation.”
41 Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.

The Early Church BAPTIZED to grow the Catholic Church just as we still do today!
Hermas Is Christian he is NOT protestant… He does** NOT believe baptism is SYMBOLIC!!
He said…
"‘I have heard, sir,’ said I [to the Shepherd], ‘from some teacher, that there is no other repentance except that which took place when we went down into the water and obtained the remission of our former sins.’** He said to me, ‘You have heard rightly, for so it is’" (The Shepherd 4:3:1–2 A.D. 80]).

PROVING beyond all doubt: The early Church was** NOT** a protestant Church!!!

Justin Martyr is Christian and he is CATHOLIC!!! Jesus never made any protestant churches NOT one!!
Justin said… **
"As many as are persuaded and believe that what we [Christians] teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly . . . are brought by us where there is water**, and** are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated.** For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, ‘Except you be born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:3]" (First Apology 61 [A.D. 151[/COLOR]]).

DO YOU SEE IT?
** are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated.**

Ignatius of Antioch
“Let no one do anything of concern to the Church without the bishop. Let that be considered a valid Eucharist which is celebrated by the bishop or by one whom he ordains . Wherever the bishop appears, let the people be there;* just as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church” ***(Letter to the Smyrneans 8:2 [A.D. 110]).

Ignatius of Antioch is NOT protestant he is Catholic!!
Dogknox

 

[davidv]

I thought peter started the church though? Or do you guys not believe peter started the church?

What religion are you talking about?

Jesus started the Church, which became know as the Catholic Church.
The Catholic Church was started by Jesus, who appointed Peter and his successors as His representative here on earth until He returns.

 

[vsedriver]

So what are you saying? Peter started one church and no other churches existed? You can have all the unbroken lineage you want, but this does not mean after Peter that this church was just as right as when it first started…

that’s only true if the bible lies about the gates of hell shall not prevail against the Church founded by Christ.

So how do you know which Church is the Church that Christ founded? Well Jesus made Peter his Chief Steward when he gave him the keys to the kingdom. So Peter’s successor leads the ‘right’ church.

 

[ESMDHokie77]

I thought peter started the church though? Or do you guys not believe peter started the church?

Jesus said that HE would build HIS Church. Jesus started it.

 

[ibetrippin07]

=dogknox;8020884]The Catholic Church GREW by Baptism! Baptism ADDS people to the Body of Jesus!!!
NO protestant church accepts “Baptism”, all claim baptism is symbolic!

not true

PROVING beyond all doubt, the Early Church is the Catholic Church! All the Early Church Father’s baptized to ADD people to the Body of Jesus!!
Right after Pentecost, Peter "**ADDED **3000 people to the Body of Jesus by BAPTISM!!

Yep.

Acts 2:40
With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, “Save yourselves from this corrupt generation.”
41 Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.

yep baptism is important and necessary

The Early Church BAPTIZED to grow the Catholic Church just as we still do today!
Hermas Is Christian he is NOT protestant… He does** NOT believe baptism is SYMBOLIC!!
He said…
"‘I have heard, sir,’ said I [to the Shepherd], ‘from some teacher, that there is no other repentance except that which took place when we went down into the water and obtained the remission of our former sins.’** He said to me, ‘You have heard rightly, for so it is’" (The Shepherd 4:3:1–2 A.D. 80]).

ok…

PROVING beyond all doubt: The early Church was** NOT** a protestant Church!!!

how?

Justin Martyr is Christian and he is CATHOLIC!!! Jesus never made any protestant churches NOT one!!
Justin said… **
"As many as are persuaded and believe that what we [Christians] teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly . . . are brought by us where there is water**, and** are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated.** For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, ‘Except you be born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:3]" (First Apology 61 [A.D. 151[/COLOR]]).
I agree!

DO YOU SEE IT?

** are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated.**

Ignatius of Antioch
“Let no one do anything of concern to the Church without the bishop. Let that be considered a valid Eucharist which is celebrated by the bishop or by one whom he ordains . Wherever the bishop appears, let the people be there;* just as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church” ***(Letter to the Smyrneans 8:2 [A.D. 110]).

Ignatius of Antioch is NOT protestant he is Catholic!!
Dogknox
I disagree

 

[Swiss_Guy]

Im saying that the argument i constantly seen thrown around here is “our church did it from the beginning!” or “the apostles were the catholic fathers”. Yet biblical speaking this is simply not the case, the catholic church came after many other churches that clearly are mentioned in the NT and are regarded in high favor with the Lord. Unless the CC position is that it sprang from one of these churches but I dont think thats it.

Those churches are part of the Catholic Church. They are individual parishes that make up the Catholic Church. It’s not like the Catholic Church is one huge parish in Rome with 1 billion people as members.

 

[ibetrippin07]

What religion are you talking about?

Jesus started the Church, which became know as the Catholic Church.
The Catholic Church was started by Jesus, who appointed Peter and his successors as His representative here on earth until He returns.

none of the other apostles were representatives?