The Church

[ibetrippin07]

that’s only true if the bible lies about the gates of hell shall not prevail against the Church founded by Christ.

So how do you know which Church is the Church that Christ founded? Well Jesus made Peter his Chief Steward when he gave him the keys to the kingdom. So Peter’s successor leads the ‘right’ church.

All the scriptures I pointed out is what comprises the church IS those that believe unto the Lord Jesus Christ and are saved. This is the church that was founded. not protestant catholic or what have you.
Peter started place of worship and handed down to others so that place would remain for believers to go to and worship. We are supposed to gather in worship you know.

 

[ibetrippin07]

Those churches are part of the Catholic Church. They are individual parishes that make up the Catholic Church. It’s not like the Catholic Church is one huge parish in Rome with 1 billion people as members.

Peter did not build them.

 

[Swiss_Guy]

Peter did not build them.

But they were “built” by the other apostles. And the head of the apostles was Peter.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Let’s say that you want to settle a new world. You start out with 12 people. You teach them all the basics of what you want. . .then you are called away for a long time so you can no longer be with these people physically.

They are all capable now of starting a community and putting into practice all that they need to settle that world. But it’s a big world and they’re going to have to be pretty separate from each other, at least at first. So they each have authority for the one area that they are going to be in. BUT, as time goes by and situations arise, things will come up that one person might choose to handle one way and another choose to handle in another way. And that’s going to cause a problem years later as these communities come together as the world is settled, because they’re each going to claim that their leader chose the RIGHT way.

Solution? ONE of the 12 people you send will be your second-in-command. HE will have the ULTIMATE authority on all concerns of ALL the communities, not just his. . .because that way everybody will have unity.

So. . .12 people, equal authorities in their own ‘turf’. . .and ONE of the 12 with the authority not just of his place, but in matters which affect ALL the communities, to have the authority over ALL.

Voila. St. Peter.

 

[dogknox]

not true
I disagree

Yes you disagree… Because you reject Baptism as only symbolic!

Baptism removes sins! Baptism ADDS people to the Body Of Jesus!
Jesus never made any protestant churches… NOT ONE!
Matthew 28:20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”
ibetrippin07 Do you see it??

The** “YOU” **Jesus is ALWAYS with is not, it CANNOT be any protestant churches… No not even one!
There was NO protestant churches when Jesus gave his COMMISSION!!
The protest did not start for sixteen hundred years **AFTER ** Jesus made his statement…"I am with you ALWAYS"!!

Jesus is ALWAYS WITH his CHURCH!!! PROVING beyond all doubt… He is NOT, he cannot be with any protestant churches simply because; Jesus did not START with you or your thousands of conflicting churches!!!

God is NOT with any protestant churches… God does NOT cause ERROR!!
Thousands and thousands of protesting churches all claiming to have the only truth but not one… No not one is the same!
**PROVING BEYOND ALL DOUBT: **God did not form any protestant churches… Corrupted man formed, your corrupted churches!!

Dogknox

 

[dogknox]

All institutions of man need a Head Spokesman. All need someone to stand up and represent the whole!

The City has the Mayor.
The Country has the President.
The Police have their Chief.
The School has the Dean.
The Protestant church has their pastor.
etc
All of these heads speak for the body, all the spokesman have AUTHORITY given to them to represent the whole! When they speak, they are speaking for the group they are the head of!

Jesus gave his CHURCH… (Not any protestant churches, there were none), the AUTHORITY of God, to speak for God, to represent God… To speak in God’s name!

“Go and make disciple of all nations BAPTIZING!”
FACT: Baptism makes disciples!

Make disciples in the name of the Father, with all the AUTHORITY of the Father!
Make disciples in the name of the Son, with all the AUTHORITY of the Son!
Make disciples in the name of the Holy Spirit, with all the AUTHORITY of the Holy Spirit!
Make disciples** in the name of the GOD**, with all the AUTHORITY of GOD!

The Catholic Church has the AUTHORITY to speak for God!! Given the AUTHORITY by God, in person, from God!

LOOK Peter speaks for Jesus!
ACTS 10.. Then Peter said, 47 “Can anyone keep these people from being baptized with water? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.”
48** So he ordered that they be baptized**** in the name of Jesus Christ.**

Jesus wants them BAPTIZED with WATER… So Peter orders it!
Peter would not order "Baptize them with water, if Jesus did not want them baptized with water!
Peter >>Speaking for Jesus<< In Jesus’ NAME orders them!!

The Church… The Church Jesus formed has his AUTHORITY; ALL the “Authority of God” to represent God!

The Church Jesus formed is the Holy Catholic Church, headed by the Bishops and Pope!
The Pope speaks for Jesus!!

Dogknox

 

[fhansen]

Im saying that the argument i constantly seen thrown around here is “our church did it from the beginning!” or “the apostles were the catholic fathers”. Yet biblical speaking this is simply not the case, the catholic church came after many other churches that clearly are mentioned in the NT and are regarded in high favor with the Lord. Unless the CC position is that it sprang from one of these churches but I dont think thats it.

Yes, the Roman Catholic Church “sprang from” the Roman Church which was presided over by Peter, the first bishop of Rome, who was martyred there. All other Churches were to maintain communion with each other and unity of the faith, of course. When disputes occurred, councils were convened, as they are today, with as many of the different bishops from the various Churches attending as possible. There doctrines were hammered out and unity of faith maintained.

Generally speaking, the Roman Church was given a certain primacy and she was often appealed to for an authoritative decision when all else failed or a final sanction of doctrine was desired. Centuries later a schism occurred (which had actually been brewing for quite some time) between east and west, partially over authority-which is really the issue we’re discussing now, and to some extent over doctrinal matters. But both the Eastern Orthodox Church and the Roman Catholic Church and those in communion with her have a unique historical connection to the beginning of Christianity.

 

[thequeen]

So what are you saying? Peter started one church and no other churches existed? You can have all the unbroken lineage you want, but this does not mean after Peter that this church was just as right as when it first started…

Correction there Christ started the Church He made Peter the first Pope when he said that Peter thou art the Rock and upon this rock I will Build my Church Oh yes I am a convert to the faith I came from a pentecostal Church of God back ground But now I know the fullness of truth which come from the Catholic faith instituted by Christ himself.He also said that the gates of hell would not prevail against it and it hasn’t The Church has stood strong against all the persecution that she has endured throughout the centuries and the Church will continue to stand for the truth set forth by our Lord and saviour Jesus Christ.

 

[Swiss_Guy]

Yes you disagree… Because you reject Baptism as only symbolic!

Just a comment (not that I’m defending Protestantism), but there are some Protestants who think that Baptism does give you salvation.

 

[guanophore]

All institutions of man need a Head Spokesman. All need someone to stand up and represent the whole!

Yes, but let’s not fall into the error that the Church founded by Christ is such an “institution”. The Church is founded by Christ, who is her head,and is a divine institution. Humans are part of her, but she does not find her origins in the works of man. She needs a representative because Jesus says she does, so he put them in place “until the end of the age”.

 

[thequeen]

that’s only true if the bible lies about the gates of hell shall not prevail against the Church founded by Christ.

So how do you know which Church is the Church that Christ founded? Well Jesus made Peter his Chief Steward when he gave him the keys to the kingdom. So Peter’s successor leads the ‘right’ church.

Very well said I don’t think that I could have summed it up much better.

 

[josephback]

My ultimate point here is to demonstrate the mootness of “the catholics had this first or did that first” it does not matter because before the catholics were alot of other churches that have been praised in the NT. THESE are the ORIGINAL churches. They are groups of people who followed Christ!

ok thank you for your patience. This is all i have to point out! I welcome all kinds of feedback

Your understanding of what constitutes “the Church” is flawed. Jesus only taught one unified teaching, and that is why it is necessary from a practical stanpoint that His teachings be contained in one, single & visible institution, which we happen to call “the Church”. To alledge that competing and disagreeing “churches” all contain Jesus’ one, unified teaching is to make God a confused shizophrenic!

He isn’t.

 

[guanophore]

But they were “built” by the other apostles. And the head of the apostles was Peter.

I see your point, but I think it is more accurate to say that they are all build by Christ. It is He who said:

Matt 16:17-19
my Father who is in heaven. 18 And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock** I will build my church,** and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

He is the builder.

Eph 2:19-22
19 So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, 21 in whom the whole structure is joined together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord; 22 in whom you also are built into it for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.

1 Peter 2:4-5
4 Come to him, to that living stone, rejected by men but in God’s sight chosen and precious; 5 and like living stones be yourselves built into a spiritual house

He builds, but we must let ourselved become the living stones. The Apostles and prophets are the foundation, Jesus being the cornerstone.

Heb 12:1-2
2 looking to Jesus the pioneer and perfecter of our faith

 

[Swiss_Guy]

I see your point, but I think it is more accurate to say that they are all build by Christ. It is He who said:

Matt 16:17-19
my Father who is in heaven. 18 And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock** I will build my church,** and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

He is the builder.

Eph 2:19-22
19 So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, 21 in whom the whole structure is joined together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord; 22 in whom you also are built into it for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.

1 Peter 2:4-5
4 Come to him, to that living stone, rejected by men but in God’s sight chosen and precious; 5 and like living stones be yourselves built into a spiritual house

He builds, but we must let ourselved become the living stones. The Apostles and prophets are the foundation, Jesus being the cornerstone.

Heb 12:1-2
2 looking to Jesus the pioneer and perfecter of our faith

touche

 

[babylonsfalling]

My ultimate point here is to demonstrate the mootness of “the catholics had this first or did that first” it does not matter because before the catholics were alot of other churches that have been praised in the NT. THESE are the ORIGINAL churches. They are groups of people who followed Christ!

Well you better start over than because you haven’t demonstrated that.
The original Churches were Catholic and those people who followed Christ were of the Catholic Church.

I hope for your sake that your original post was all just "cut “n” paste because if you so uptight about this issue that you’d spend all that time on such a long post about someone else’s church, it suggests you have problem.

It shouldn’t matter that much to you in the first place.

 

[chypmonk]

I think it is clear that Jesus gave the “keys” ONLY to Peter. This a symbol of being His “prime minister”. Jesus is king and his vicar is in the seat of Peter, which replaced the chair of Moses.(cf.Mt 23:2).

We can see from Isiah 22:21-22 Jesus is apointing Peter to the office of “prime minister”:
“he shall be as a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and to the house of Juda.
22 And I will lay the key of the house of David upon his shoulder: and he shall open, and none shall shut: and he shall shut, and none shall open.”

Here marks the dignity of the keys, which appoints the master of the palace, over all the other servants.

Look at the similarities with Math. 116:19:
“And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.”

This would be clear to the other Apostles of the special dignity given to Peter.

I tried this next point on a Jehovah Witness and seemed to blow his mind.

The Bible is full of lineages. Seth to Noah; Noah to Abraham; Abraham to Isaac, Jacob. This shows the linage of The true Faith. For examplethe True Faith was through Jacob (this is why God is called the “God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob”) not Esau his older brother and a believer in God but the true faith goes through Jacob. The 12 tribes were chosen but then the tribe of Juda was the chosen from where salvation would come, because “salvation is from the Jews.”

Now the New testament follows the old by stressing linage Mathew and Luke both use it. But the new linage of the True Faith is of the Spirit and office of Peter, we are incorporated (cf. Romans 11:19-24) into the Jews by Baptism because by it we are joined to Christ, who is a Jew, or as St. Paul like to say we are " in Christ."

So only the Catholic Church has a linage from Peter to today no other Church has this.

 

[Tiberius1701]

And the use of the Lineage of the Chair of Peter was continued in the early Church for the sake of refuting heresies. St. Irenaeus used it in the second century in his book called “Against Heresies”:
"2. Since, however, it would be very tedious, in such a volume as this, to reckon up the successions of all the Churches, we do put to confusion all those who, in whatever manner, whether by an evil self-pleasing, by vainglory, or by blindness and perverse opinion, assemble in unauthorized meetings; [we do this, I say,] by indicating that tradition derived from the apostles, of the very great, the very ancient, and universally known Church founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul; as also [by pointing out] the faith preached to men, which comes down to our time by means of the successions of the bishops. For it is a matter of necessity that every Church should agree with this Church, on account of its preeminent authority, that is, the faithful everywhere, inasmuch as the tradition has been preserved continuously by those [faithful men] who exist everywhere.

1. The blessed apostles, then, having founded and built up the Church, committed into the hands of Linus the office of the episcopate. Of this Linus, Paul makes mention in the Epistles to Timothy. To him succeeded Anacletus; and after him, in the third place from the apostles, Clement was allotted the bishopric. This man, as he had seen the blessed apostles, and had been conversant with them, might be said to have the preaching of the apostles still echoing [in his ears], and their traditions before his eyes. Nor was he alone [in this], for there were many still remaining who had received instructions from the apostles. In the time of this Clement, no small dissension having occurred among the brethren at Corinth, the Church in Rome dispatched a most powerful letter to the Corinthians, exhorting them to peace, renewing their faith, and declaring the tradition which it had lately received from the apostles, proclaiming the one God, omnipotent, the Maker of heaven and earth, the Creator of man, who brought on the deluge, and called Abraham, who led the people from the land of Egypt, spoke with Moses, set forth the law, sent the prophets, and who has prepared fire for the devil and his angels. From this document, whosoever chooses to do so, may learn that He, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, was preached by the Churches, and may also understand the tradition of the Church, since this Epistle is of older date than these men who are now propagating falsehood, and who conjure into existence another god beyond the Creator and the Maker of all existing things. To this Clement there succeeded Evaristus. Alexander followed Evaristus; then, sixth from the apostles, Sixtus was appointed; after him, Telephorus, who was gloriously martyred; then Hyginus; after him, Pius; then after him, Anicetus. Soter having succeeded Anicetus, Eleutherius does now, in the twelfth place from the apostles, hold the inheritance of the episcopate. In this order, and by this succession, the ecclesiastical tradition from the apostles, and the preaching of the truth, have come down to us. And this is most abundant proof that there is one and the same vivifying faith, which has been preserved in the Church from the apostles until now, and handed down in truth" (Ibid., Book III, Chapter 3, paragraphs 2-3; circa A.D. 180).

 

[guanophore]

So only the Catholic Church has a linage from Peter to today no other Church has this.

The Eastern Church (Orthodox) also have valid apostolic succession, and there is a line of Bishops that started from Peter while he was in Antioch.

 

[Tiberius1701]

The Eastern Church (Orthodox) also have valid apostolic succession, and there is a line of Bishops that started from Peter while he was in Antioch.

You’re absolutely right. What chypmonk meant to say was no doubt, “So only the Catholic & Orthodox Churches have a linage from Peter to today; no ecclesial community has this.”

 

[Tomster]

Im saying that the argument i constantly seen thrown around here is “our church did it from the beginning!” or “the apostles were the catholic fathers”. Yet biblical speaking this is simply not the case, the catholic church came after many other churches that clearly are mentioned in the NT and are regarded in high favor with the Lord. Unless the CC position is that it sprang from one of these churches but I dont think thats it.

You sure are trippin’!

The Church is the kingdom of God on earth governed by the apostolic authority.

Jesus Christ, as is strikingly evident on every page of the Gospel, represented Himself to the world as the founder of “the kingdom of God,” which in its earthly phase is ordained to gather together all men (cf. the parables of the kingdom): the people.

As rulers of the kingdom He appointed Apostles (cf. Luke 6:13; Matthew 18:15-18; John 20:21; Matthew 28:18-19, etc.): the clergy in the people.

As head of the Apostles He constituted St. Peter (cf. Matthew 16:18-19); John 21:17): the primacy of the clergy.

With these elements our Lord instituted a real society, hierarchically constituted (with subjects and superiors), visible to the eyes of all, but with a nonpolitical and religious end (cf. Matthew 4:3-10; 5:3-12; 6:33; 16:26-27, etc.), assigning it the function of applying, through the centuries, the fruits of the Redemption.

From this we clearly understand that the Church is the continuation and the prolongation of the Incarnate Word, His Mystical Body (Romans 12:4-6; 1 Corinthians 12:12-27; Ephesians 4:4), which actualizes in each individual as in all humanity the work of the Redemption, through the offering of the sacrifice of the Mass and the exercise of the triple ecclesiastical power (magisterium, ministerium, jurisdictio - teaching, ministry, jurisdiction).

As its Founder, is a Person subsisting both in the human and in the divine nature, so the Church is at the same time a human and divine society; the human element, visible, perceptible to the senses, consists of the multitude of men spcially organized; the spiritual, invisible, divine element is furnished by the supernatural gifts which put the human aggregateunder the influence of Christ and of the Holy Spirit, Soul and unitive Principle of the whole organism (the theandric constitution of the Church). The Church is, therefore, the union of man with Christin a social form, “the social synthesis of the human and the divine”.

Are you with me so far?