The Church's relaxation of disciplines has harmed Mass attendance

[USMC]

Eileen T:

About the same time as the NZ Bishops abandoned the Feast of All Saints as a Holy Day of Obligation, New Zealand started observing ‘Halloween’ American-style. Just an observation.

We have regressed to a time when many of our ‘Shepherds’ (not all, thank God) have caved-in to a desire for popularity. They want to be liked, so they back-off from teaching ‘hard things’ with authority.

What we need are priests like St Anastasius who stood up against the bishops of his time who were accepting the heresy of Arius. Fortunately, God has sent us such priests, Fr John Corapi to name just one.

It is nice to see that our eyes are opening. No longer are we deluded into thinking that our day of apostacy and darkness is “a new springtime for the Church”; and that our sinful society is a new “civilization of love”. No longer are we deluded by such insanity. We are in the dark days of the long predicted apostacy.

Regarding St. Athanasius. If he were alive today, do we really think we would be following him? Remember, St. Athanasius was excommunicated by the Pope. He was going around ordaining priests and Bishops without Papal permission, and spent 17 years in exile. Would we really be his followers today? Or we would consider him an excommunicated schismatic? Let’s find out…

We had a St. Athanasius during our day. His name was Archbishop Lefebvre. He stood virtually alone against the heresy, apostacy, and destruction of the liturgy. His little Society of St. Pius X still today preaches the true faith (not watered down, diluted, or corrupted), and still offers the Mass and other Sacraments with the reverence due to them - and still use the proper words for the consecration, which are necessary for validity.

I predicted something several months ago on this board. It was not a real prediction, but more of a hopeful guess. I predicted that the situation with the SSPX would be settled soon; that they would receive an Apostolic Administration (universal jurisdiction, separate from the local Bishop), and that Bishop Fellay of the SSPX would be promoted to Cardinal. This “prediction” was greeted with great fury and anger, as though it was absurd. But today it appears that this may indeed take place, exactly as I said, as soon as March 24th.

I will be sure to post more on this later.

 

[Al_Masetti]

You want to turn things around?

Here’s an easy way to start…

… from now on… every time you pass in front of a Catholic Church, make the Sign of the Cross.

 

[thistle]

USMC:

It is nice to see that our eyes are opening. No longer are we deluded into thinking that our day of apostacy and darkness is “a new springtime for the Church”; and that our sinful society is a new “civilization of love”. No longer are we deluded by such insanity. We are in the dark days of the long predicted apostacy.

Regarding St. Athanasius. If he were alive today, do we really think we would be following him? Remember, St. Athanasius was excommunicated by the Pope. He was going around ordaining priests and Bishops without Papal permission, and spent 17 years in exile. Would we really be his followers today? Or we would consider him an excommunicated schismatic? Let’s find out…

We had a St. Athanasius during our day. His name was Archbishop Lefebvre. He stood virtually alone against the heresy, apostacy, and destruction of the liturgy. His little Society of St. Pius X still today preaches the true faith (not watered down, diluted, or corrupted), and still offers the Mass and other Sacraments with the reverence due to them - and still use the proper words for the consecration, which are necessary for validity.

I predicted something several months ago on this board. It was not a real prediction, but more of a hopeful guess. I predicted that the situation with the SSPX would be settled soon; that they would receive an Apostolic Administration (universal jurisdiction, separate from the local Bishop), and that Bishop Fellay of the SSPX would be promoted to Cardinal. This “prediction” was greeted with great fury and anger, as though it was absurd. But today it appears that this may indeed take place, exactly as I said, as soon as March 24th.

I will be sure to post more on this later.

I sincerely hope the SSPX stop their nonsense, admit their errors, fully repent and submit to Rome.

 

[Al_Masetti]

Tantum ergo:

A couple of points to consider>

The 1940s and 1950s were actually anomalies (and they were limited as well to at least moderate income, suburban, and mainly white people to boot).

For the main part of history, MOST men and women lived short, and poor, lives. 70 hour work weeks would have been greeted as “easy”. And the work was HARD. Do you know how hard it is to plant crops? To spin wool? Bake over open hearths? And all this without motors or power tools or even electric light? Imagine also no antibiotics etc and epidemics of disease. Remember that the average person born in 1900 (my dad was born that year, he had me very late in life ) had a life span of 47. 47! Today it is 77 or greater in many countries.

Did you know that close to 50% of women would die in childbirth due to puerperal fever–and that only changed around 1850??

That child labor was still going on in the first decade of the 20th century in the U.S.?

and. . .here’s the kicker. . .for all of those times, when men and women lived HARD, SHORT, lives. . . the majority of Catholics had MORE devotions, GREATER fasting, and deeper protestations of faith. How many Catholics entered the seminary and the convent in those centuries? Went off to be missionaries? Or just lived in the old home town but spent more time on their knees in prayer, and were DELIGHTED to “offer things up” for Jesus?

I will take exception to some of this:

BECAUSE, when I started working in Manhattan, the inner city of the inner city, of New York City, I would walk around at lunch time and there was a Catholic Church on EVERY BLOCK.

URBAN, INNER CITY Catholic Churches.

On every block.

 

[Wolseley]

Al Masetti:

You want to turn things around?

Here’s an easy way to start…

… from now on… every time you pass in front of a Catholic Church, make the Sign of the Cross.

I already do that. Sometimes I get some weird looks from companions or onlookers, but who cares?

thistle:

I sincerely hope the SSPX stop their nonsense, admit their errors, fully repent and submit to Rome.

I sincerely hope that the American bishops, dissident priests, “liturgical experts”, liberal theologians, and all the other wayward individuals in the Church, from educators to homosexual advocates to pro-abortion/pro-birth control people to priestess wannabes do the same.

 

[Marilena]

Quote : Mike_D30

“Maybe start by bringing back the Tridentine Mass in every Church, every Sunday. (The Missals can have translations).”

Agreed Mike!

 

[thistle]

Marilena:

Quote : Mike_D30

“Maybe start by bringing back the Tridentine Mass in every Church, every Sunday. (The Missals can have translations).”

Agreed Mike!

That falls down in the poor third world countries where the majority of Catholics are. Here in the Philippines there are no missals in Church!

 

[dcdurel]

USMC:

Regarding St. Athanasius. If he were alive today, do we really think we would be following him? Remember, St. Athanasius was excommunicated by the Pope…

False, St. Athanasius was NOT excommunicated by any Pope.

 

[dcdurel]

The biggest reason mass attendance has declined is that the laity are no longer being fed, that is they are no longer taught the truths of the faith.

The reason for this is that theologians misled everyone into believing that the Church changed her directives on preaching the homily at Vatican II.

Thus after Vatican II priests were told they were no longer to primarily teach the truths of the Catholic faith, but they were instead to give an explanation of the readings, or give a commentary on the readings.
Before Vatican II, the priests were directed to teach the teachings of the Church during the homily. All priests had to teach from the Roman Catechism or some similar basic catechism before Vatican II. In other words, they all had to teach doctrine and what is necessary for salvation.

Theologians misled everyone by being misled themselves, probably from protestants. The basic error they were taught was that the Gospel was just the words and deeds of Jesus in the scriptures.

Since the primary duty of priests is to proclaim the Gospel, they were then easily misled by dissidents to believe that giving an explanation of the readings, esp, the four gospel readings of the bible, was the same as proclaiming the Gospel.

Lets go back to the basic error. The Gospel is not just the words and deeds of Jesus as contained in the scriptures (the Catholic Encyclopedia definition) but according to the Popes, it is the entire message of Jesus that He taught the apostles directly and through the Holy Spirit.
The apostles then taught this Gospel to the people and handed it down entirely in Tradition through the bishops they appointed. Some was also written in the scriptures.
But, the Gospel they taught can only be learned through Tradition, that is the teaching and preaching, practices, etc. of the Church.
This is evident from Protestantism, in which the idea that the Gospel can be learned by studing the bible has been a complete disaster, in that it has led to over 20,000 Gospels which has led to over 20,000 different denominations in which they can’t agree on a single teaching.

Now there is no book in the bible, or even a chapter in the bible that claims to present this Gospel the apostles taught and preached. Therefore, the last place to look to for “proclaiming the Gospel” is the bible.
Since the apostles did not write any summary of the Gospel they taught and preached, where do we go to find the Gospel they taught? We go to those who received this Gospel from them, the early Christians and the early fathers of the Church. They all claimed their beliefs came from the apostles. And as anyone knows, their beliefs they said that came from the apostles are the same beliefs of the Church today.
Thus, the Gospel the apostles taught was the Catholic Faith.
Catechisms are simply a summary of the Gospel the apostles taught and preached. To proclaim the Gospel one must proclaim the Catholic faith.

 

[dcdurel]

To make this more clear, lets set up a senario, where the apostle John, or one of his bishops was preaching in a new town that had never heard of Jesus. Lets say a pagan comes up and asks him, “who is this Jesus you are speaking about?”
Does the apostle John, or one of his successors, answer by quoting the beginning of the gospels,
1 The book of the genealogy of
Jesus Christ, the son of David, the
son of Abraham.
2 Abraham was the father of Isaac,
and Isaac the father of Jacob, and
Jacob the father of Judah and his
brothers, …

Or perhaps from his own Gospel
1 ¶ In the beginning was the Word,
and the Word was with God, and the
Word was God.
2 He was in the beginning with God;
3 all things were made through him,
and without him was not anything made
that was made.
4 In him was life, and the life was
the light of men…

Of course not. The pagan would ask “who is God”, what does he look like, is he a bad or good god, etc. There is no way to explain God, explain Jesus, explain the Trinity by reading scripture to someone. The apostles did NOT proclaim the Gospel by reading scripture and then giving an interpretation of it like we do mistakenly at mass today. They had to start off by explaining the Trinity. Then, they had to explain salvation history, then the articles of the Creed. Next they would have to explain how to receive the salvation Jesus merited, which means to explain the sacraments. Next they would have to explain how to live a life that leads to heaven, i.e. keeping the commandments. “If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments” Jesus said.
And of course, they would have to be taught prayer.
Thus we have the Trinity and the hierarchy of truths, salvation history, the Creed, Sacraments, Commandments and Prayer
This is how the apostles and their successors taught and proclaimed the Gospel. There is NO other way. Sometimes these truths were combined, but they all had to be taught one way or the other.
Does this look familiar? Of course, it is the basic divisions of the Roman Catechism and the new Catechism of the Catholic Church. In other words, the catechisms are simply a summary of the teaching of the same Gospel the apostles and their successors taught. The apostles did not proclaim the Gospel by reading the Gospels. They proclaimed the Gospel by teaching the Catholic faith.
That is why the General Directory for Catechesis says the catechisms present the Gospel. That is why the new Pope says the new condensation of the Catechism proclaims the Gospel

This basic message has been lost on all theologians and scholars, and thus bishops and priests have also been misled.
This is why Catholics have quit practicing their faith and why so many don’t know basic truths. It is ONLY the Popes. Only the Popes who have kept the correct understanding of what the Gospel is. Only the Popes have not been misled. All these years in which scholars and experts have criticized the Popes it is only the Popes who have not been misled into believing a false meaning of the word Gospel.

The relaxation of disclipine is only SECONDARY to the failure to proclaim the Gospel as the reason for Catholics leaving the faith.

Why did God allow this? I don’t know. Perhaps because Catholics did not want to hear the full Gospel, especially the teachings on sexual morality. Perhaps they would rather hear only a commentary on the readings than teachings on contraception, abortion, divorce, mortal sin, etc.
But of course, contraception leads to abortion and divorce and none of this brings happiness to families. We are all suffering from our pride in thinking we know more than Jesus when He said to listen to His Church, the Catholic Church.

 

[Wisdom]

dcdurel:

False, St. Athanasius was NOT excommunicated by any Pope.

He was rejected by almost all of the Eastern Bishops and of course the Emperor of Constantinople still an embarassment of Eastern Orthodox today. Rome was the standard of Orthodxyh back then until today even though the Orthodox will never admit it. Just check church history the first 1000 years almost all error came from the East, The pope was right all the time. You can’t from history.
St Athanasius sole defender was the Bishop of ROme in fact it was pretty much the Pope and St Athanasius against all of the Eastern Bishops. Amazing but true.
That was really bad example to use.

However a better example would be the Reformation yes and I am not a heretic. The Reformers had legitamate quarrels with the church the church was selling indulgences, the church had lost its way on teaching grace and faith and emphasizing almost a Pelagian like system of good works. Remember Luther was an Augustinian monk he just redisovered an ancient catholic truth that we are saved by grace alone though faith. That teaching was lost in midevil catholcism and was redissocvered by Luther now he obviosuly went to far but in some ways he was right before he went overboard. Also the midevil catholic church Biblical studies were at an all time low and yes the laity for the most part did not read the scriptures and the clergy many times could not read the scriptures as well. All these were legitamate concerns and critiques. THese things have been corrected but who knows maybe the Reformation woke up the church in her slumber and her ignorance of abuses going on at the time. Perhaps SSPX have legitamate worries that reverence in the catholic church is at an all time low, cathechetics is worse than before V2, liberal cafeteria catholcism is at all time high, The Latin mass cannot be found conveniently and readily available in most dioceese. These things are worrisome and need to be addressed by the catholic church that is what I am saying.

 

[davy39]

In my opinion, as a cradle, pre-Vatican 2 Catholic, the main reason for lack of attendance at Mass, is that we are all just LAZY! It wouldn’t make any difference of we had more latin Masses, more devotions, more priests, or whatever. With the “me first” mindset of people nowadays, this will continue, and probably get worse. I used to fast from midnite on until after Mass when I received Holy Communion, and it wasn’t easy. People wouldn’t do it today. They would just go ahead and receive anyway. I don’t mean to sound so gloom and doom, but that is what I think. Mainline churches across the board have the same problem. At my brother in laws Nazarene church, he is lucky to have forty per cent attendance. People just don’t think they need God anymore, unless we have a disaster, such as 9/11. Church attendance went up right after 9/11, but then dropped back down after we forgot about it. I’m rambling so I’ll stop. Peace

 

[USMC]

dcdurel:

False, St. Athanasius was NOT excommunicated by any Pope.

There is no question that letters of excommunication were issued against Athanasius, which were purported to be from Pope Liberius. Although it is unclear if these letters were authentic, it is now believed that they were, as even This Rock, which is no friend of the SSPX, admits.

This Rock: Q: Was St. Athanasius, the “Defender of Orthodoxy,” wrongly excommunicated by a pope? A Traditionalist friend of mine says he was and that this gives credence to claims of the Society of St. Pius X that Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre was wrongly excommunicated as well.

Answer: For centuries scholars have debated the authenticity of the fours letters of Pope Liberius condemning Athanasius during the Arian persecution of the fourth century. The predominant opinion today is that they are genuine. (This Rock).

The following is what the Catholic Encyclopedia says about one of those letters.

“In this document Liberius is made to address the Arian bishops of the East, and to declare that on receiving an epistle against St. Athanasius from the Oriental bishops, which had been sent to his predecessor Julius, he had hesitated to condemn that saint, since his predecessor had absolved him, but he had sent legates to Alexandria to summon him to Rome. Athanasius had refused to come, and Liberius on receiving new letters from the East had at once excommunicated him, and was now anxious to communicate with the Arian party (Catholic Encyclopedia).

Several Father’s of the Church (St. Jerome, for example), who lived at the time of the actual events believed that the Pope did excomminucate Athanasius, yet they stood with him, and against the Pope, none-the-less, because they knew the Athanasius was right.

I have a question for you. Rome is currently negotiating an agreement with the SSPX, which should be announced within the next few months (possibly late March). Pope Benedict has been in direct contact with Bishop Fellay of the SSPX, but is also negotiating through Cardina Hoyos. After a 5 hour meeting between Cardinal Hoyos and Bishop Fellay, the Cardinal stated publically that the SSPX is not in schism. During the meeting, Bishop Fellay stated the reason’s for the stance the SSPX is taking, which is that they will make no compromise and have nothing to do with the modernism and liberalism that have infected the Church. After hearing why the SSPX is taking the stand that it is, the Cardinal said “you are in the Church. Write the Holy Father and ask him to lift the excommunication”. Then, soon after that meeting the Cardinal publically admitted that the SSPX is not in schism, which confirms what the SSPX has been saying for years.

My question is this: Why do you think Cardinal Hoyos stated publically that the SSPX is not in formal schism?

 

[cecelia]

I think that’s human nature. For example, as a teacher I see that classrooms that impart strict discipline are those whose students learn more and are much more happy in the process. On the contrary, those classrooms with more progressive policies soon sink into chaos,and the learning is stunted. The same holds true for parenting. Stricter parents have more grounded children, while the more indulgent parents have problem children. Generally speaking of course but quite often true. I think that the bottom line is that we as human beings need continuity, rhythm, ritual, and boundaries. When these begin to shift, become arbitrary, or qualified, then our less desirable qualities as humans begin to surface. So if the Mass for instance loses its vertical element and becomes more communal, then we as humans don’t feel the need to go. Thirty-five years ago, for instance, we would not have deigned to miss the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass for fear of mortal sin. And even though that’s imperfect love of God, it’s better than what we have today, where, because of the casualness of the Mass, we’ve lost all fear and reverence of Him. We must return to order in all of our societal structures, and most of all the Church, the kingdom, not democracy, of God on earth, must recapture its hierarchical nature and remember its traditions. If not the incredible lightness of being will take over, and the Church, will become just another choice for many Catholics on Sunday

 

[thistle]

USMC:

There is no question that letters of excommunication were issued against Athanasius, which were purported to be from Pope Liberius. Although it is unclear if these letters were authentic, it is now believed that they were, as even This Rock, which is no friend of the SSPX, admits.

This Rock: Q: Was St. Athanasius, the “Defender of Orthodoxy,” wrongly excommunicated by a pope? A Traditionalist friend of mine says he was and that this gives credence to claims of the Society of St. Pius X that Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre was wrongly excommunicated as well.

Answer: For centuries scholars have debated the authenticity of the fours letters of Pope Liberius condemning Athanasius during the Arian persecution of the fourth century. The predominant opinion today is that they are genuine. (This Rock).

The following is what the Catholic Encyclopedia says about one of those letters.

“In this document Liberius is made to address the Arian bishops of the East, and to declare that on receiving an epistle against St. Athanasius from the Oriental bishops, which had been sent to his predecessor Julius, he had hesitated to condemn that saint, since his predecessor had absolved him, but he had sent legates to Alexandria to summon him to Rome. Athanasius had refused to come, and Liberius on receiving new letters from the East had at once excommunicated him, and was now anxious to communicate with the Arian party (Catholic Encyclopedia).

Several Father’s of the Church (St. Jerome, for example), who lived at the time of the actual events believed that the Pope did excomminucate Athanasius, yet they stood with him, and against the Pope, none-the-less, because they knew the Athanasius was right.

I have a question for you. Rome is currently negotiating an agreement with the SSPX, which should be announced within the next few months (possibly late March). Pope Benedict has been in direct contact with Bishop Fellay of the SSPX, but is also negotiating through Cardina Hoyos. After a 5 hour meeting between Cardinal Hoyos and Bishop Fellay, the Cardinal stated publically that the SSPX is not in schism. During the meeting, Bishop Fellay stated the reason’s for the stance the SSPX is taking, which is that they will make no compromise and have nothing to do with the modernism and liberalism that have infected the Church. After hearing why the SSPX is taking the stand that it is, the Cardinal said “you are in the Church. Write the Holy Father and ask him to lift the excommunication”. Then, soon after that meeting the Cardinal publically admitted that the SSPX is not in schism, which confirms what the SSPX has been saying for years.

My question is this: Why do you think Cardinal Hoyos stated publically that the SSPX is not in formal schism?

I think the Pope outranks the Cradinal!!

John Paul II’s apostolic letter Ecclesia Dei, in which he makes this appeal to Catholics:
Quote:
In the present circumstances I wish especially to make an appeal both solemn and heartfelt, paternal and fraternal, to all those who until now have been linked in various ways to the movement [the Society of St. Pius X] of Archbishop [Marcel] Lefebvre, that they may fulfill the grave duty of remaining united to the Vicar of Christ in the unity of the Catholic Church, and of ceasing their support in any way for that movement. Everyone should be aware that formal adherence to the schism is a grave offense against God and carries the penalty of excommunication decreed by the Church’s law.

To all those Catholic faithful who feel attached to some previous liturgical and disciplinary forms of the Latin tradition I wish to manifest my will to facilitate their ecclesial communion by means of the necessary measures to guarantee respect for their rightful aspirations. In this matter I ask for the support of the bishops and of all those engaged in the pastoral ministry in the Church (ED 5c).

 

[dcdurel]

Wisdom:

The Reformers had legitamate quarrels with the church the church was selling indulgences, the church had lost its way on teaching grace and faith and emphasizing almost a Pelagian like system of good works. Remember Luther was an Augustinian monk he just redisovered an ancient catholic truth that we are saved by grace alone though faith. .

The Church was not selling indulgences. An indulgence cannot be sold. All indulgences require prayer, and prayer cannot be sold.

Luther did not rediscover and ancient Catholic truth that we are saved by grace alone through faith. The Church has always taught that the beginning of salvation was by grace received when we are baptized. This occures through faith, or the faith of the parents if we are children. But the grace of salvation is NOT by faith alone, for we also receive this grace whenever we obey God.

The bible makes that extremely clear.

“James 2:24 You see that a man is
justified by works and not by
faith alone.”
(RSV) (a protestant version)

The ONLY place faith alone is found in the entire bible is in this verse.

And if we refuse to obey God and commit a mortal sin, then we lose this grace of salvation. If we die unrepentant of a mortal sin, we will end up in hell, because we are in rebelllion against the God who made us.

 

[Michael_Francis]

Having drifted off-topic this thread is now closed.