The Church's Ultimate Trial

[Protestant101]

We don’t comment because, as Jesus Himself said ‘there will always be wars and rumours of wars’, and ‘the day will come like a thief in the night’ (ie it will be unpredictable!), two passages you don’t seem to have registered, in your eagerness to predict the end. To what purpose, when even Christ Himself says in so many words that the end will NOT be predictable?

Almost every statement you made in this post was false; maybe even “pedantic” but I want to address the above paragraph for now.

First, where did I try to “predict” anything, or to promote the predicting of anything?

While you are correct in saying that an exact date cannot be predicted for Jesus’ coming; you are wrong in your interpretation of “come as a thief.” When Jesus comes as a thief; it does not refer to prediction of when He will come at all, it is in direct reference to HOW he will come, and the fact that as in the case of a thief breaking in, it will be an overwhelming suprise to those who do not know Jesus, and His Word, but to all His true disciples, even though they do not know the exact day and hour; it will not be a surprise to them, and they will not be “destroyed by the brightness of His coming.”

As I said ealier, one cannot find clarity for the great prophecies of the Bible from commonly available Roman Catholic sources.

 

[beboldfor]

A holocaust of the people God chose to deliver His message is not the same as other great tragedies. As far as Israel and the Palestinians are concerned, the world body of the UN has recognized Israel. There is no question that the Israelly military is currently in control. I did not say they could not lose it, but the prophecy has already been fulfilled. The fact that you have to go back to 73 AD to find a parallel is interesting. That was 40 years after the crucifixion showing how meaningful those events were.
The worst tragedy and greatest triumph of Israel just happened recently. Their passion and resurrection. You are missing something special.

 

[beboldfor]

I disagree that Roman Catholic sources do not deal with this, it is just the people you have met. Many Catholics write and talk about this but it has not seemed to filter down.

 

[po18guy]

As I said ealier, one cannot find clarity for the great prophecies of the Bible from commonly available Roman Catholic sources.

101, are you seeking faith, or knowledge? What do you seek, a calendar of coming events? God has graciously denied us any such thing! Were we to know that which is to come, we would not survive.

Choose one:

1. The Catholic Church is too regimented, with too many regulations
2. The Catholic Church is too vague and non-specific

I know your reply: it’s both. But your miracle church knows the way! How come no one could be saved by your miracle church until the 1,800s? That doesn’t pass the sniff test.

 

[Protestant101]

101, are you seeking faith, or knowledge? What do you seek, a calendar of coming events? God has graciously denied us any such thing! Were we to know that which is to come, we would not survive.

Choose one:

1. The Catholic Church is too regimented, with too many regulations
2. The Catholic Church is too vague and non-specific

I know your reply: it’s both. But your miracle church knows the way! How come no one could be saved by your miracle church until the 1,800s? That doesn’t pass the sniff test.

In terms of “no one could be saved by your miracle Church until the mid 1800s,” you show your gross lack of truthful knowledge about the Adventist Church and what she teaches. It would be interesting to see you prove, in another thread, that this Church teaches that people cannot be saved outside the Adventist Church. Your charges deliver only a derisory thwacking, completely devoid of reality.

The fact also remains that my answer would actually just be the #2 above that you posted. When it comes to prophecy, and end time events, the Roman Catholic leadership is very vague. Their uncertainty, and indecisiveness in this area is clear.

 

[mark_a]

Very good Gary. LOL, thanks for the great exposure. Now everyone knows who they are “encountering” as if I have somehow kept it secret

Well it is kind of hard to keep up with who’s who for a Catholic, but every denom out there has an answer as to why the Catholics have it wrong, they just can’t unite enough to deliver the knock-out blow.

 

[mark_a]

The Church’s ultimate trial in CCC
I’m struggling with my understanding…I know this is alot of content sdo i numbered my q’s, please respond to any or all. Thanks…

675
Before Christ’s second coming the Church must pass through a final trial that will shake the faith of many believers.574 The persecution that accompanies her pilgrimage on earth575 will unveil the “mystery of iniquity” in the form of a religious deception offering men an apparent solution to their problems at the price of apostasy from the truth. The supreme religious deception is that of the Antichrist, a pseudo-messianism by which man glorifies himself in place of God and of his Messiah come in the flesh.576

1. Question: Is this happening now?

676
The Antichrist’s deception already begins to take shape in the world every time the claim is made to realize within history that messianic hope which can only be realized beyond history through the eschatalogical judgment. The Church has rejected even modified forms of this falsification of the kingdom to come under the name of millenarianism,577 especially the “intrinsically perverse” political form of a secular messianism.578

2. Question: What does ‘political form of secular messianism’ mean?

677
The Church will enter the glory of the kingdom only through this final Passover, when she will follow her Lord in his death and Resurrection.579 The kingdom will be fulfilled, then, not by a historic triumph of the Church through a progressive ascendancy, but only by God’s victory over the final unleashing of evil, which will cause his Bride to come down from heaven.580 God’s triumph over the revolt of evil will take the form of the Last Judgment after the final cosmic upheaval of this passing world.581

3. Question: Does this mean that the solution to the world’s problems can never be solved in some sort of political utopianism(ie. the UN, Marxism, Universal democracy etc.)?

4. Question: How do you think the ‘final Passover’ will happen?How will Christ return in glory be a universal experience and not just a literal return to the Mt. of Olives?

I love what Fr. Corapi says about this:

“I don’t know about the end but the end for you and me is very near.”

 

[po18guy]

In terms of “no one could be saved by your miracle Church until the mid 1800s,” you show your gross lack of truthful knowledge about the Adventist Church and what she teaches. It would be interesting to see you prove, in another thread, that this Church teaches that people cannot be saved outside the Adventist Church. Your charges deliver only a derisory thwacking, completely devoid of reality.

The fact also remains that my answer would actually just be the #2 above that you posted. When it comes to prophecy, and end time events, the Roman Catholic leadership is very vague. Their uncertainty, and indecisiveness in this area is clear.

First of all, I was trying to knock some sense into you! Second, the focus on adventism is an aberration that is mostly peculiar to 1800s America, although it has been seen elsewhere through the ages. Church history? The SDA has relatively little to speak of, although I will admit it is older than Evangelicalism.

 

[Protestant101]

First of all, I was trying to knock some sense into you! Second, the focus on adventism is an aberration that is mostly peculiar to 1800s America, although it has been seen elsewhere through the ages. Church history? The SDA has relatively little to speak of, although I will admit it is older than Evangelicalism.

LOL my mother tried for 25 years to knock some sense into me; my wife has been trying for 18 years; people in all kinds of churches have tried to knock some sense into me; but so far, whenever someone tries to do it by “knocking;” it all looks like “non-” sense. :idea:

I have an idea. Adventism has been the medium by which I have met Jesus; and even wanted to open a Bible or say a prayer. Your Adventist history charge cannot hold water here; for this, and another reason or three. What do you think of this idea?

Contrary to what many like to say; we do not have just one founder, or leader, save Jesus Christ; and our history goes back farther than your’s. This is because people from all faith backgrounds, and all walks of life have joined the Adventist family of faith. Together, realizing the same distinctive truths; (sometimes with no chance of collaboration) believers from all denominations, as they grew in faith, and knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ; God’s people are joining hands and joing forces to counteract the falsehoods of pagentry and pomp religion that detracts from the Bible to men’s traditions and the doctrines of spiritualism.

You call yourselves the “Mother Church” and by God’s leading, we call ourselves The Remnant Church. I am sorry that we sometimes have such low opinions of one another; but at the same time; I find it encouraging that we all have the written word, which looks beyond the clouds of mens mistakes and weaknesses of “interpretation” to the sunshine of God’s love; in God’s Word. It doesn’t matter how early a given church claims to be; but this is where the true Church will be led. To the sunshine of God’s love. One has to belong to the true Church for this; not just one of several “early Churches.”

I am proud to be a Seventh-day Adventist. They have taught me what the Bible says about the Church’s ultimate trial; and I find it very disappointing that your church is so vague on the subject.

 

[Filius99993]

One of the first problems with the Catholic views on prophecy; is the nebulous nature of Catholic “interpretation” for prophecy.

I find it really odd that the church who claims such authority, (the only “real” authority" ) to interpret the Bible, has such trouble coming up with definitive Bible prophecy.

The most common line I hear from Catholics is that prophecy is really “only” “private revelation;” and we cannot know for sure what it really means. Whenever it comes to the topics in Daniel and Revelation; all of a sudden the Catholics go running to the haven of “private interpretation” and how prophecy is not the same as “doctrine.”

You will never figure out Bible prophecy, from Catholic sources.

You won’t find it from any protestant sources, because they lack the Deuteronomical canon, and aren’t originated from they actual Greek manuscripts.

Also, as a Protestant, you should never claim that you know every single Catholic source, because our sources extend from over a two thousand year time span, and honestly, there is no one alive on this Earth who has read EVERYTHING that has to deal with Church doctrine.

Come back to this thread once you have read Canon Law.

 

[Protestant101]

You won’t find it from any protestant sources, because they lack the Deuteronomical canon, and aren’t originated from they actual Greek manuscripts.

Also, as a Protestant, you should never claim that you know every single Catholic source, because our sources extend from over a two thousand year time span, and honestly, there is no one alive on this Earth who has read EVERYTHING that has to deal with Church doctrine.

Come back to this thread once you have read Canon Law.

Instead of all this fancy talk; why not just show us where in Catholic writings we have some clear, decisive views of Bible prophecy? If you want to use Apocrypha; then fine; but I will still compare it to the Bible; and BTW I don’t “lack” those apocryphal books at all. I have a copy of them too and I know what they say, and what they don’t say. if I am wrong re what I have said here about the Catholic view on prophecy; just show us where.

 

[LilyM]

Almost every statement you made in this post was false; maybe even “pedantic” but I want to address the above paragraph for now.

First, where did I try to “predict” anything, or to promote the predicting of anything?

While you are correct in saying that an exact date cannot be predicted for Jesus’ coming; you are wrong in your interpretation of “come as a thief.” When Jesus comes as a thief; it does not refer to prediction of when He will come at all, it is in direct reference to HOW he will come, and the fact that as in the case of a thief breaking in, it will be an overwhelming suprise to those who do not know Jesus, and His Word, but to all His true disciples, even though they do not know the exact day and hour; it will not be a surprise to them, and they will not be “destroyed by the brightness of His coming.”

As I said ealier, one cannot find clarity for the great prophecies of the Bible from commonly available Roman Catholic sources.

A thief breaking in to places is a surprise to EVERYONE - unless he’s an extremely inept, loudmouthed and unlikely-to-be-successful thief who seriously wants either to be betrayed or caught in the act. No thief worth their salt would reveal much about their plans even to their closest accomplices. That’s why Jesus said EVEN HE didn’t know when - that’s how close the Father is holding His cards to His chest.

The message is loud and clear - don’t bother seeking knowledge that is quite frankly none of your or my business and in any event is beyond your or my or any of our feeble powers to divine.

Quite simply Catholics don’t care because our faith emphasises us being prepared at ALL times to meet the judgement. Perhaps yours doesn’t? Frankly if I found out the world was going to end in five minutes I’d do very little different to what I try to do every hour of every day, so it really seems rather pointless to me to try and even broadly guesstimate when it will end.

And of course it’s no surprise to you or me or anyone who’s bothered to read a Bible that Christ will return at the end of days. We won’t be caught by surprise. But why chase after the rainbow of even an approximate time frame for it? People have been trying for 2,000 years - many of 'em had at least as much reason as you to think THEIR time was THE time.

All so far have been dead wrong. Go figure. Of course one day someone will guess and will be correct. Almost certainly this will be by sheer coincidence and no revelation or genuine prophecy - which all ended with Revelation anyway. And I wouldn’t bet on the correct ‘prophet’ being you or me.

 

[Chuck_H]

A thief breaking in to places is a surprise to EVERYONE - unless he’s an extremely inept, loudmouthed and unlikely-to-be-successful thief who seriously wants either to be betrayed or caught in the act. No thief worth their salt would reveal much about their plans even to their closest accomplices. That’s why Jesus said EVEN HE didn’t know when - that’s how close the Father is holding His cards to His chest.

The message is loud and clear - don’t bother seeking knowledge that is quite frankly none of your or my business and in any event is beyond your or my or any of our feeble powers to divine.

Quite simply Catholics don’t care because our faith emphasises us being prepared at ALL times to meet the judgement. Perhaps yours doesn’t? Frankly if I found out the world was going to end in five minutes I’d do very little different to what I try to do every hour of every day, so it really seems rather pointless to me to try and even broadly guesstimate when it will end.

And of course it’s no surprise to you or me or anyone who’s bothered to read a Bible that Christ will return at the end of days. We won’t be caught by surprise. But why chase after the rainbow of even an approximate time frame for it? People have been trying for 2,000 years - many of 'em had at least as much reason as you to think THEIR time was THE time.

All so far have been dead wrong. Go figure. Of course one day someone will guess and will be correct. Almost certainly this will be by sheer coincidence and no revelation or genuine prophecy - which all ended with Revelation anyway. And I wouldn’t bet on the correct ‘prophet’ being you or me.

Could not have said it better.

Why waste time on second guessing the time line when we have enough on our hands just working with God on our own lives and getting ready for our own “end times”.

 

[garysibio]

Hitler killed a quarter of the population of Europe like the Black Death did? Heck, he didn’t even match Stalin or Mao in the killing stakes - Stalin liquidated upwards of 30 million people in the course of three years, five times the estimated figure for Hitler.

Then compare that to lesser-known historical figures like William I of England who depopulated most of the North of England so effectively that NO-ONE lived there for 20 years! Or the carnage of the Hundred Years War or the Thirty Years War.

In the end, no human life is more significant than another, and the fact that Hitler’s targets were primarily Jewish doesn’t make them more significant either.

As for holocausts - if I recall my ancient history rightly, the Romans made a pretty comprehensive holocaust of the Jews and their homeland in AD 73. Isn’t that how the Holy Land was able to come under the dominion of Arabs and later Muslims in the first place?

Retaking of Jerusalem? Want to tell the Palestinians that Jerusalem has been ‘retaken’? I think they’d disagree with you there, they’re still fighting very hard indeed for it. Then again, didn’t Richard Lionheart’s crusade come within a whisker of retaking the entire Holy Land as well?

Of course these aren’t typical times - but that’s because there is no such thing as a typical time.

Let’s not forget Cambodia’s Pol Pot. Percentage-wise, he was the worst. Out of a population of 7 million, he killed 3 million for reasons like wearing eyeglasses or being able to read.

Gary

 

[garysibio]

In terms of “no one could be saved by your miracle Church until the mid 1800s,” you show your gross lack of truthful knowledge about the Adventist Church and what she teaches. It would be interesting to see you prove, in another thread, that this Church teaches that people cannot be saved outside the Adventist Church. Your charges deliver only a derisory thwacking, completely devoid of reality.

The fact also remains that my answer would actually just be the #2 above that you posted. When it comes to prophecy, and end time events, the Roman Catholic leadership is very vague. Their uncertainty, and indecisiveness in this area is clear.

The problem with doing what you ask is that not all SDAs believe the same thing. I have met SDAs who claim that yuo must be SDA to be saved, some who claim that you don’t have to be SDA but you must worship on Saturday and others who say that neither is a requirement. I’ve also met SDAs who believe, and showed me the belief in SDA teaching, that, prior to the incarnation, Jesus was the arkangel Michael (as JWs believe) and others who not only don’t believe it but have never even heard of the idea.

Just because you believe or reject a particular belief doesn’t mean that the same is true of other SDAs.

Gary

 

[Chuck_H]

The problem with doing what you ask is that not all SDAs believe the same thing. I have met SDAs who claim that yuo must be SDA to be saved, some who claim that you don’t have to be SDA but you must worship on Saturday and others who say that neither is a requirement. I’ve also met SDAs who believe, and showed me the belief in SDA teaching, that, prior to the incarnation, Jesus was the arkangel Michael (as JWs believe) and others who not only don’t believe it but have never even heard of the idea.

Just because you believe or reject a particular belief doesn’t mean that the same is true of other SDAs.

Gary

ArchAngel, the arkangels were those two thingies on the lost ark of the covenant (ref-Indiana Jones)

Couldn’t resist

 

[guanophore]

One of the first problems with the Catholic views on prophecy; is the nebulous nature of Catholic “interpretation” for prophecy.

I find it really odd that the church who claims such authority, (the only “real” authority" ) to interpret the Bible, has such trouble coming up with definitive Bible prophecy.

The most common line I hear from Catholics is that prophecy is really “only” “private revelation;” and we cannot know for sure what it really means. Whenever it comes to the topics in Daniel and Revelation; all of a sudden the Catholics go running to the haven of “private interpretation” and how prophecy is not the same as “doctrine.”

You will never figure out Bible prophecy, from Catholic sources.

I think this formulation is a bit sweeping and derogatory, but I do agree with what you seem to be implying about the lack of emphasis from Catholics on figuring out the future. For the Catholic, the essence of prophesy is God’s Truth, spoken into the present. It is not fortune telling, or trying to discern the future. Rather it is the gift of revelation from God’s persepctive to the here and now.

For the Catholic, ultimate prophesy is Christ Himself, the fullness of the revelation from the Father:

“For we did not follow cleverly devised myths when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty. 17 For when he received honor and glory from God the Father and the voice was borne to him by the Majestic Glory,** “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased,” **18 we heard this voice borne from heaven, for we were with him on the holy mountain. 19 And we have the prophetic word made more sure. You will do well to pay attention to this as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts.” 2 Peter 1:16-19

One whose focus is to draw near to Christ Himself is always at the cutting edge of the prophetic word.

To that extent, the category of study referred to as “biblical prophesy” in present fundamental circles is often the cleverly devised myths, which do not center upon the life of Christ in the life of the believer, but on attempts to discern those things which are to come.

On the contrary, Jesus teaches consistentlly throughout His ministry and through His Apostles that the scriptures all point to Himself, and in Himself is found the fullness of all Truth. Speculations about the “rapture” and the “tribulation” often do little to center the life of the believer on Christ.

 

[guanophore]

When I was an evangelical, I studied this topic a great deal primarily because of the emphasis put on this subject. After becoming Catholic and alot of meditation I realized that my judgement day came at either my physical death or Christ’s second coming, whichever came first. And the funny thing is that I or you cannot predict either, so always be ready to die. I ask myself if I died today, where do I think I am going? That is the message of the thief in the night. Alway be ready to meet your maker.

This was my experience also, and your response is an appropriate Catholic response to the Apostolic Teaching about the end times. Such an attitude has much more to benefit the believer in Christ than so many hours of endless speculations, that have no impact on one’s daily conduct in the sight of God. I watched one of the Left Behind series last night. If such speculation has the effect of informing the believers’ life unto holiness, then it has some value, otherwise, it is only entertaining fiction.

 

[garysibio]

ArchAngel, the arkangels were those two thingies on the lost ark of the covenant (ref-Indiana Jones)

Couldn’t resist

Thank you. I tried it with a ‘k’ and it didn’t look right. Then tried it with a ‘c’ but that looked even worse.

Gary

 

[garysibio]

A couple of questions for P101:

1. What do you believe regarding the Millenium? Do you consider yourself to be premillenial, postmillenial or amillenial?
2. Do you believe that believers will be raptured? If so, are you a pre-tribber, mid-tribber or post-tribber?

I’m asking to be better able to address your issues.

Gary