The Church's Ultimate Trial

[Franciscan]

The Church’s ultimate trial in CCC
I’m struggling with my understanding…I know this is alot of content sdo i numbered my q’s, please respond to any or all. Thanks…

675
Before Christ’s second coming the Church must pass through a final trial that will shake the faith of many believers.574 The persecution that accompanies her pilgrimage on earth575 will unveil the “mystery of iniquity” in the form of a religious deception offering men an apparent solution to their problems at the price of apostasy from the truth. The supreme religious deception is that of the Antichrist, a pseudo-messianism by which man glorifies himself in place of God and of his Messiah come in the flesh.576

1. Question: Is this happening now?

676
The Antichrist’s deception already begins to take shape in the world every time the claim is made to realize within history that messianic hope which can only be realized beyond history through the eschatalogical judgment. The Church has rejected even modified forms of this falsification of the kingdom to come under the name of millenarianism,577 especially the “intrinsically perverse” political form of a secular messianism.578

2. Question: What does ‘political form of secular messianism’ mean?

677
The Church will enter the glory of the kingdom only through this final Passover, when she will follow her Lord in his death and Resurrection.579 The kingdom will be fulfilled, then, not by a historic triumph of the Church through a progressive ascendancy, but only by God’s victory over the final unleashing of evil, which will cause his Bride to come down from heaven.580 God’s triumph over the revolt of evil will take the form of the Last Judgment after the final cosmic upheaval of this passing world.581

**3. Question: Does this mean that the solution to the world’s problems can never be solved in some sort of political utopianism(ie. the UN, Marxism, Universal democracy etc.)?

1. Question: How do you think the ‘final Passover’ will happen?How will Christ return in glory be a universal experience and not just a literal return to the Mt. of Olives?**

 

[Franciscan]

The Church’s ultimate trial in CCC
I’m struggling with my understanding…I know this is alot of content sdo i numbered my q’s, please respond to any or all. Thanks…

675
Before Christ’s second coming the Church must pass through a final trial that will shake the faith of many believers.574 The persecution that accompanies her pilgrimage on earth575 will unveil the “mystery of iniquity” in the form of a religious deception offering men an apparent solution to their problems at the price of apostasy from the truth. The supreme religious deception is that of the Antichrist, a pseudo-messianism by which man glorifies himself in place of God and of his Messiah come in the flesh.576

1. Question: Is this happening now?

676
The Antichrist’s deception already begins to take shape in the world every time the claim is made to realize within history that messianic hope which can only be realized beyond history through the eschatalogical judgment. The Church has rejected even modified forms of this falsification of the kingdom to come under the name of millenarianism,577 especially the “intrinsically perverse” political form of a secular messianism.578

2. Question: What does ‘political form of secular messianism’ mean?

677
The Church will enter the glory of the kingdom only through this final Passover, when she will follow her Lord in his death and Resurrection.579 The kingdom will be fulfilled, then, not by a historic triumph of the Church through a progressive ascendancy, but only by God’s victory over the final unleashing of evil, which will cause his Bride to come down from heaven.580 God’s triumph over the revolt of evil will take the form of the Last Judgment after the final cosmic upheaval of this passing world.581

**3. Question: Does this mean that the solution to the world’s problems can never be solved in some sort of political utopianism(ie. the UN, Marxism, Universal democracy etc.)?

1. Question: How do you think the ‘final Passover’ will happen?How will Christ return in glory be a universal experience and not just a literal return to the Mt. of Olives?**

bump

 

[Protestant101]

Franciscan;3624659]The Church’s ultimate trial in CCC
I’m struggling with my understanding…I know this is alot of content sdo i numbered my q’s, please respond to any or all. Thanks…

One of the first problems with the Catholic views on prophecy; is the nebulous nature of Catholic “interpretation” for prophecy.

I find it really odd that the church who claims such authority, (the only “real” authority" ) to interpret the Bible, has such trouble coming up with definitive Bible prophecy.

The most common line I hear from Catholics is that prophecy is really “only” “private revelation;” and we cannot know for sure what it really means. Whenever it comes to the topics in Daniel and Revelation; all of a sudden the Catholics go running to the haven of “private interpretation” and how prophecy is not the same as “doctrine.”

You will never figure out Bible prophecy, from Catholic sources.

 

[ryanoneil]

The Church’s ultimate trial in CCC
I’m struggling with my understanding…I know this is alot of content sdo i numbered my q’s, please respond to any or all. Thanks…

675
Before Christ’s second coming the Church must pass through a final trial that will shake the faith of many believers.574 The persecution that accompanies her pilgrimage on earth575 will unveil the “mystery of iniquity” in the form of a religious deception offering men an apparent solution to their problems at the price of apostasy from the truth. The supreme religious deception is that of the Antichrist, a pseudo-messianism by which man glorifies himself in place of God and of his Messiah come in the flesh.576

1. Question: Is this happening now?

I don’t know.

676
The Antichrist’s deception already begins to take shape in the world every time the claim is made to realize within history that messianic hope which can only be realized beyond history through the eschatalogical judgment. The Church has rejected even modified forms of this falsification of the kingdom to come under the name of millenarianism,577 especially the “intrinsically perverse” political form of a secular messianism.578

2. Question: What does ‘political form of secular messianism’ mean?

Atheism and the liberation of man especially through his economic and social emancipation.
gaudium et spes it’s a little long but read 20-21

677
The Church will enter the glory of the kingdom only through this final Passover, when she will follow her Lord in his death and Resurrection.579 The kingdom will be fulfilled, then, not by a historic triumph of the Church through a progressive ascendancy, but only by God’s victory over the final unleashing of evil, which will cause his Bride to come down from heaven.580 God’s triumph over the revolt of evil will take the form of the Last Judgment after the final cosmic upheaval of this passing world.581

3. Question: Does this mean that the solution to the world’s problems can never be solved in some sort of political utopianism(ie. the UN, Marxism, Universal democracy etc.)?
Yes

4. Question: How do you think the ‘final Passover’ will happen?How will Christ return in glory be a universal experience and not just a literal return to the Mt. of Olives?

Rev 20:11-21:4

Peace,

Ryan

 

[ERose]

Concerning your 1st question: Are we in the end times? I think that we are, but at the very beginning of them. Loss of faith and morality worldwide including inside Christianity. The decreasing of Christianity and the rise of another religion, Islam. The overwhelming amount of attacks on the Church by well everybody including those claiming to be Catholics. The documented increases in exocisms required. False prophets everywhere.

Yes, I believe the signs are everywhere. Will we see the Second Coming in our lifetimes? Only God knows that.

When I was an evangelical, I studied this topic a great deal primarily because of the emphasis put on this subject. After becoming Catholic and alot of meditation I realized that my judgement day came at either my physical death or Christ’s second coming, whichever came first. And the funny thing is that I or you cannot predict either, so always be ready to die. I ask myself if I died today, where do I think I am going? That is the message of the thief in the night. Alway be ready to meet your maker.

How will He come back? I have no reason to doubt the teaching of our Scriptures. He will come in power and glory.

 

[ERose]

Forgot to give my answer on question 3. The answer is yes. We cannot as a race on our own achieve perfect happiness, which is necessary for a utopian society. If all of the citizens in a society are not perfectly happy then a utopian society will fail. As St Thomas Aquinas teaches that perfect happiness can only be achieved by us humans in heaven and thus only through God. (One of his proofs for the afterlife.)

 

[JoeyWarren]

One of the first problems with the Catholic views on prophecy; is the nebulous nature of Catholic “interpretation” for prophecy…

Rightly so. There are 2 warnings concerning prophecy. And the latter one is probably taken very seriously and literally, whereas you ignore it.

I find it really odd that the church who claims such authority, (the only “real” authority" ) to interpret the Bible, has such trouble coming up with definitive Bible prophecy.

It is very dangerous to do so.

The most common line I hear from Catholics is that prophecy is really “only” “private revelation;” and we cannot know for sure what it really means.

1st with Peter : 2Pe 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

Peter is 100% right.

Whenever it comes to the topics in Daniel and Revelation; all of a sudden the Catholics go running to the haven of “private interpretation” and how prophecy is not the same as “doctrine.”

That is true, they are not the same.

You will never figure out Bible prophecy, from Catholic sourcesGod has provided 2 warnings against the private and personal Interpretations of verses that are prophetic.

Are we suppose to figure it out? Is there a directive or an exhortation to figure it out?

Take look at which you will ignore. Rev 22:18** For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:**

---

One slight error in misinterpretating this book put’s one at risk of either taking away from it’s meaning or adding to it’s meaning. It is dangerous ground to tread. And if you have taken away from it or added to it and subsequently teach a misinterpretation, then one brings eternal punishment upon himself.

Even the Church is not foolish enough to bring about it’s own eternal damnation.

 

[Protestant101]

Rightly so. There are 2 warnings concerning prophecy. And the latter one is probably taken very seriously and literally, whereas you ignore it.
It is very dangerous to do so.

Its hard for me to decide from all your online yelling (bold red fonts) what the point of your post is; but I would be curious to hear what it is that you assert so dashingly that I am “ignoring.”

On the one hand, you admonish me so religiously with your scripture-twisting about “private interpretation;” yet, you still insist that prophecy cannot be known.

“Private interpretation” in that text means that there must be a “public revelation” of prophecy that we can know from the Bible. The Bible is not “private interpretation;” only Catholic Tradition meets that description.

As I said; all excuses aside; you will never see in Catholic literature a clear view of Bible prophecy. All is ensrouded by the dark clouds of doubt, and mystery, wheras the Bible does not do this. The Bible explains it’s own words, especially prophecy.

 

[LilyM]

Its hard for me to decide from all your online yelling (bold red fonts) what the point of your post is; but I would be curious to hear what it is that you assert so dashingly that I am “ignoring.”

On the one hand, you admonish me so religiously with your scripture-twisting about “private interpretation;” yet, you still insist that prophecy cannot be known.

“Private interpretation” in that text means that there must be a “public revelation” of prophecy that we can know from the Bible. The Bible is not “private interpretation;” only Catholic Tradition meets that description.

As I said; all excuses aside; you will never see in Catholic literature a clear view of Bible prophecy. All is ensrouded by the dark clouds of doubt, and mystery, wheras the Bible does not do this. The Bible explains it’s own words, especially prophecy.

As a side issue, I find your signature interesting. The Church is protected and guided by God’s own Holy Spirit and is supposed to prevail against the gates of Hell. How is this possible unless there is unity between what the Church and Christ do and teach?

I don’t think any Catholic would disagree that the Church doesn’t tell Christ what to do. But it is odd indeed that you would think that there is any dichotomy between what the Church teaches and does officially (if only by the virtues of its status as an instutition and the status of the Popes and bishops as successors of the Apostles) and what Christ teaches and does, since He states explictly in scripture that He will act and teach through these means.

 

[Protestant101]

As a side issue, I find your signature interesting. The Church is protected and guided by God’s own Holy Spirit and is supposed to prevail against the gates of Hell. How is this possible unless there is unity between what the Church and Christ do and teach?

I don’t think any Catholic would disagree that the Church doesn’t tell Christ what to do. But it is odd indeed that you would think that there is any dichotomy between what the Church teaches and does officially (if only by the virtues of its status as an instutition and the status of the Popes and bishops as successors of the Apostles) and what Christ teaches and does, since He states explictly in scripture that He will act and teach through these means.

Thankyou for your observation and comment. Whatever you say the “status’ of the Pope and Bishops actually is, it does not give the Roman Catholic Church the right to determine what Scripture really means; for the Bible explains itself. The Bible is it’s own best expositor and needs no human collusion to interpret itself.” The Church’s Ultimate Trial is clear in the Bible; but Catholic literature, tradition, and doctrine obscure these Bible teachings

 

[COPLAND_3]

Here is my critique on it, I have the Catechism, Scripture and Church Fathers. litteralchristianlibrary.wetpaint.com/page/The+Great+Tribulation

 

[COPLAND_3]

Thankyou for your observation and comment. Whatever you say the “status’ of the Pope and Bishops actually is, it does not give the Roman Catholic Church the right to determine what Scripture really means; for the Bible explains itself. The Bible is it’s own best expositor and needs no human collusion to interpret itself.”

This really is not the thread to debate this, but I must say that the Bible can be its best expositor, but everyone does not have the authority to use it authoritatively, which is obvious by the many different interpretations on major doctrine by those who are well versed in the Scriptures. The Church carries on the same teachings that have been passed on for 2000 years and protects it.

The Church’s Ultimate Trial is clear in the Bible; but Catholic literature, tradition, and doctrine obscure these Bible teachings.

So “clear” that it has been debated by scholars for centuries.

 

[bpbasilphx]

I find it really odd that the church who claims such authority, (the only “real” authority" ) to interpret the Bible, has such trouble coming up with definitive Bible prophecy.

**I think the Church is VERY wise to show such caution.

Remember that the Bible experts of 2000 years ago had it worked out according to their understanding of Bible prophecy what the Messiah was supposed to do when he came.

The Messiah came, He didn’t follow their agenda for Him, and so they rejected Him.

I think that those prophecy experts who have it worked out down to the last comma what the Messiah should do when He returns should be very careful lest they make the same mistakes and reject Him as well.**

 

[brycelaliberte]

The Bible explains it’s own words, especially prophecy.

Then explain, since it’s “so easy.” It shouldn’t be too hard.

You can talk all you want, but until you back it up, you’ve got nothing said.

 

[Chuck_H]

The Church’s ultimate trial in CCC
I’m struggling with my understanding…I know this is alot of content sdo i numbered my q’s, please respond to any or all. Thanks…

675
Before Christ’s second coming the Church must pass through a final trial that will shake the faith of many believers.574 The persecution that accompanies her pilgrimage on earth575 will unveil the “mystery of iniquity” in the form of a religious deception offering men an apparent solution to their problems at the price of apostasy from the truth. The supreme religious deception is that of the Antichrist, a pseudo-messianism by which man glorifies himself in place of God and of his Messiah come in the flesh.576

1. Question: Is this happening now?

676
The Antichrist’s deception already begins to take shape in the world every time the claim is made to realize within history that messianic hope which can only be realized beyond history through the eschatalogical judgment. The Church has rejected even modified forms of this falsification of the kingdom to come under the name of millenarianism,577 especially the “intrinsically perverse” political form of a secular messianism.578

2. Question: What does ‘political form of secular messianism’ mean?

677
The Church will enter the glory of the kingdom only through this final Passover, when she will follow her Lord in his death and Resurrection.579 The kingdom will be fulfilled, then, not by a historic triumph of the Church through a progressive ascendancy, but only by God’s victory over the final unleashing of evil, which will cause his Bride to come down from heaven.580 God’s triumph over the revolt of evil will take the form of the Last Judgment after the final cosmic upheaval of this passing world.581

**3. Question: Does this mean that the solution to the world’s problems can never be solved in some sort of political utopianism(ie. the UN, Marxism, Universal democracy etc.)?

1. Question: How do you think the ‘final Passover’ will happen?How will Christ return in glory be a universal experience and not just a literal return to the Mt. of Olives?**

A bit of practical advice.
I think it was St. Augustine but not sure; but when asked about the end of the world replied, “if told the end of the world was coming and I was planting a tree, I would finish planting the tree.”

People have been sweating the “end times” for over 200 years and it hasn’t happened. Exception: each individual who sweated (past tense) the end times died and experienced their own individual end times.

We aren’t sure as to the exact number of people who have lived between the ascension of Jesus to today but it has to be huge number. Each person has experienced the end of the world as they knew it at the end of their life.

Like Jesus said, be a kid, accept that Papa knows more than you ever will, live like He is in charge, and don’t sweat the theological ramifications. To God, you are an infant so trust Him as parent and live your life to the best you can knowing for a certainty that He loves you and will get you through this safely.

After that, there is nothing more; and everything.

Paradox, gotta love it!

 

[Lapell]

The Church’s ultimate trial in CCC
I’m struggling with my understanding…I know this is alot of content sdo i numbered my q’s, please respond to any or all. Thanks…

675
Before Christ’s second coming the Church must pass through a final trial that will shake the faith of many believers.574 The persecution that accompanies her pilgrimage on earth575 will unveil the “mystery of iniquity” in the form of a religious deception offering men an apparent solution to their problems at the price of apostasy from the truth. The supreme religious deception is that of the Antichrist, a pseudo-messianism by which man glorifies himself in place of God and of his Messiah come in the flesh.576

1. Question: Is this happening now?

676
The Antichrist’s deception already begins to take shape in the world every time the claim is made to realize within history that messianic hope which can only be realized beyond history through the eschatalogical judgment. The Church has rejected even modified forms of this falsification of the kingdom to come under the name of millenarianism,577 especially the “intrinsically perverse” political form of a secular messianism.578

2. Question: What does ‘political form of secular messianism’ mean?

677
The Church will enter the glory of the kingdom only through this final Passover, when she will follow her Lord in his death and Resurrection.579 The kingdom will be fulfilled, then, not by a historic triumph of the Church through a progressive ascendancy, but only by God’s victory over the final unleashing of evil, which will cause his Bride to come down from heaven.580 God’s triumph over the revolt of evil will take the form of the Last Judgment after the final cosmic upheaval of this passing world.581

**3. Question: Does this mean that the solution to the world’s problems can never be solved in some sort of political utopianism(ie. the UN, Marxism, Universal democracy etc.)?

1. Question: How do you think the ‘final Passover’ will happen?How will Christ return in glory be a universal experience and not just a literal return to the Mt. of Olives?**

Sincerely,I can only answer with either “Maybe” or “I don’t know”… Didn’t Jesus say, “You don’t need to know about times or periods that the Father has determined by his own authority” (Acts 1,7) ?

 

[beboldfor]

Hi, this is my first post.

 

[Lapell]

How would it be a sign of consummation just in itself? anything in the messages that would point to that, or are you referring to the number 4 as though it were a magic number? (THEN IT WOULD BE PLAIN SUPERSTITION!!)

 

[beboldfor]

The pope is implying that the prophesy to preach the gospel to the nations has been fulfilled. He said he is like a messenger who has finally delivered a message. And he is saying this prophesy needed to be fulfilled. The number 4 has nothing to do with anything. Every time a pope speaks before the UN he is preaching the gospel to the nations just by his presence as an official of the church. He also said he is a spokesman for our Christian brethren so the whole church is included.
Can this mean the consumation is near?

 

[garysibio]

For those of you who have never encountered Protestant101, you should know that he is a a Seventh Day Adventist, a group which many Protestants consider to be a cult band which sprang from the same religious movement which gave us the Jehovah’s Witnesses. Being an SDA his views come from the hate-filled writings of the false prophet Ellen G White.

Gary