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LilyM
Guest
Apart from dash off to the confessional and Mass, which are admittedly things I don’t do every day!
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hawkeye
Guest
Could be, well it certainly isn’t good, with so many millions murdered through abortion and war etc; i suppose the world is ripe for the man of perdition.
But Jesus told us not to worry, " consider the lilies of the field, the sparrows of the air " etc ; so if they neither sow nor reap, what one of us can add one cupid to his life by worrying.
The Acts Of The Apostles
7 But he said to them: It is not for you to know the times or moments, which the Father hath put in his own power:
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It most likely means that Christ will rule for a thousand years, the Church has rejected this, Jesus even said His Kingdom is not of this world.
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Probably not, like the hungry, Jesus said, " the poor you have with you always ."
Do we weed a garden once and thats it ?
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The Angel already told how He would return.
Ive heard enough of those " the end is nigh " types who supposedly were threatening the end.
***In the end they got it wrong, ***
As for Protestant 101, pay heed, they have sound doctrine, they believe that Jesus is Michael the Archangel, and that Jesus is God, but St Michael isn’t God.
And William Miller their founder predicted that Jesus would return in March 1844, and when He didn’t.
Source
Miller was an active Freemason, need we say more.
Anyway regardless, of when Christ returns physically, He did say that He would be with us until the end of time.
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spauline
Guest
I would like to issue a brief response to the question of secular messianism, and the general sense of “antichrist”.
Actually, “iniquity” in its supreme form has already been manifested, in the totality of salvation history, six primary times before our own time, which itself also manifests a supreme form on the order of the previous six.
fyi, these six ages are the:
I. The Fall and Pre-Flood Wickedness (the primeval rejection of the Divine Truth and Will, the first lie of the dragon, or anti-Baptism)
II. The Tower of Babel (the primeval form of secular messianism, or second lie of the dragon, aka, anti-Marriage)
(all subsequent stages of iniquity are simply a resurrection of these same base iniquities)
III. Egypt
IV. The pre-Exile Jewish “Apostasy”
V. Antiochus IV Epiphanies, OT Antichrist (see Maccabees)
VI. Pagan Rome
The primary essence of this iniquity is the same, and simply corresponds to the basic lies of the dragon in the beginning in Genesis. IOW, the parallels between Genesis and Revelation are deliberate.
If it is true that the Law and the Prophets are summarized in two primary commandments: Love of God and love of neighbor, then it is appropriate that the supreme lies of iniquity of the dragon are simply the twisting of these, or denial, so to speak.
The first lie of the dragon is simply the negation that God should be loved ultimately. Loving God means knowing Him and obeying Him.
Hence, the first lie of the dragon would lead one to utterly refuse to accept or even seek out any Divine Truth, nor to live in obedience to God. This is the primary lie believed in the pre-Flood wickedness of Noah’s day and is the same lie repeated in all other stages. And since Baptism is the foundational Sacrament to undo this lie, where one is restored to full faith in God’s truth and the sincere desire to do the Will of the Father, the dragon becomes a sign of this first lie***, anti-Baptism***.
The second lie is a deception with regards to “love your neighbor.” For the purposes of summary, the second lie is this: that man can “cooperate” in a purely materialistic sense, that is, selfish, brute ambition, and forge, as it were, a civilization of peace and prosperity. That is, with no regard for Divine Truth or Law or the mysteries and order built into the Creation by God, and purely using this creation itself, humanity can forge lasting peace and prosperity. The explanation of this second lie requires a minor digression…
see below:
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spauline
Guest
… continued from above…
Love is the reason that we exist: first, to give and receive love with God forever, and then secondarily, to give and receive love with creatures, namely, the angels and saints.
Now, when one no longer lives for God, the reason for one’s existence is forgotten, which is, again, Love. Hence, the seduction of the dragon is that one can find one’s ultimate fulfillment apart from love. But then from where? From the Creation!
Now, a secondary digression: is the creation bad? Can the creation not give happiness? Well, that depends. The creation is not evil, hence, the Church rejects gnosticism. So if the creation is not intrinsically evil, why is the dragon’s lie wrong? It is in the manner of how the dragon turns one towards the Creation.
Here is the crux: the Divine Purpose of the Creation is for two primary purposes:
I. Catechetical Mystery
***II. Sacrament ***
What do we mean? We mean, first, God wishes to teach us about Love and Divine, or spiritual, mysteries, through the Creation. Hence, the many physical components of Christ’s parables were predestined to be a part of the creation so that God could communicate the mysteries of the spiritual and moral through the very signs of the physical nature of things.
Secondly, the Divine Motive was to use several of the very prominent things of the creation as not merely catechetical signs of love, but as vehicles for grace, that is, for the reception and strengthening of Divine Love, which is what the Sacraments are.
We know, also, that the supreme sign of love amongst all the Sacraments is Marriage.
Now, to return to the dragon’s lie: when one has no regard for love nor of God, the Creation is no longer seen as a catechetical sign of love or as a means of love, but only for its brute superficialities. IOW, the creation becomes an idol, to be sought at for its own sake, in place of God, instead of as merely an ICON of love (Catechetical mystery and Sacrament).
It is no coincidence therefore, that since marriage is the supreme sign of love in the creation, pointing to the very reason for our being and existence, the sign of the second lie, that is, the perennial seduction of a purely materialistic, anti-sacramental utopia, is simply the Whore of the Apocalypse, or anti-Marriage.
Now, with regards to our modern world, these two lies are already believed significantly to warrant a significant age as the previous six of salvation history. The question, therefore, is not whether secular messianism, which is a supreme form of the lie of antichrist, already exists. It does, in the east, under atheistic materialism, in the West, hedonistic and relativistic materialism, and these forms are severe.
The question is whether this lie can be healed at this stage, seeing as the same lies were present in pagan Rome, in Antiochus, in the times of Noah and Babel.
This is the crux of the apocalyptic debate. Augustinians, who adhere to the tendency of Catholic thought for the last 1600 years, would say, that the gray areas will be weeded out, so that there will only be faithful Catholics and apostate secular messianists, and then will occur the final trial, and then the end of the world.
The fully approved Catholic mystics’ revelations, on the other hand, suggest a different scenario: that this is just a temporary age of evil, and that a minor tribulation will weed out the errors of our world, showing humanity the consequences of its errors and sins, so that Christians are reunited to Rome, and the near whole of the Gentiles are restored to the faith (or enter it if they never had it before) for a great age of peace.
Then, after a significant age of spiritual prosperity, the Gentiles will fall into these two lies again, and that is when the antichrist will come and the world ends.
If you read my stuff, you will know I take the mystics’ position because only it fully agrees with all analogies and data of Scripture and Tradition.
Just my two cents, anyway.
Thanks if you read this far.
J
Love is the reason that we exist: first, to give and receive love with God forever, and then secondarily, to give and receive love with creatures, namely, the angels and saints.
Now, when one no longer lives for God, the reason for one’s existence is forgotten, which is, again, Love. Hence, the seduction of the dragon is that one can find one’s ultimate fulfillment apart from love. But then from where? From the Creation!
Now, a secondary digression: is the creation bad? Can the creation not give happiness? Well, that depends. The creation is not evil, hence, the Church rejects gnosticism. So if the creation is not intrinsically evil, why is the dragon’s lie wrong? It is in the manner of how the dragon turns one towards the Creation.
Here is the crux: the Divine Purpose of the Creation is for two primary purposes:
I. Catechetical Mystery
***II. Sacrament ***
What do we mean? We mean, first, God wishes to teach us about Love and Divine, or spiritual, mysteries, through the Creation. Hence, the many physical components of Christ’s parables were predestined to be a part of the creation so that God could communicate the mysteries of the spiritual and moral through the very signs of the physical nature of things.
Secondly, the Divine Motive was to use several of the very prominent things of the creation as not merely catechetical signs of love, but as vehicles for grace, that is, for the reception and strengthening of Divine Love, which is what the Sacraments are.
We know, also, that the supreme sign of love amongst all the Sacraments is Marriage.
Now, to return to the dragon’s lie: when one has no regard for love nor of God, the Creation is no longer seen as a catechetical sign of love or as a means of love, but only for its brute superficialities. IOW, the creation becomes an idol, to be sought at for its own sake, in place of God, instead of as merely an ICON of love (Catechetical mystery and Sacrament).
It is no coincidence therefore, that since marriage is the supreme sign of love in the creation, pointing to the very reason for our being and existence, the sign of the second lie, that is, the perennial seduction of a purely materialistic, anti-sacramental utopia, is simply the Whore of the Apocalypse, or anti-Marriage.
Now, with regards to our modern world, these two lies are already believed significantly to warrant a significant age as the previous six of salvation history. The question, therefore, is not whether secular messianism, which is a supreme form of the lie of antichrist, already exists. It does, in the east, under atheistic materialism, in the West, hedonistic and relativistic materialism, and these forms are severe.
The question is whether this lie can be healed at this stage, seeing as the same lies were present in pagan Rome, in Antiochus, in the times of Noah and Babel.
This is the crux of the apocalyptic debate. Augustinians, who adhere to the tendency of Catholic thought for the last 1600 years, would say, that the gray areas will be weeded out, so that there will only be faithful Catholics and apostate secular messianists, and then will occur the final trial, and then the end of the world.
The fully approved Catholic mystics’ revelations, on the other hand, suggest a different scenario: that this is just a temporary age of evil, and that a minor tribulation will weed out the errors of our world, showing humanity the consequences of its errors and sins, so that Christians are reunited to Rome, and the near whole of the Gentiles are restored to the faith (or enter it if they never had it before) for a great age of peace.
Then, after a significant age of spiritual prosperity, the Gentiles will fall into these two lies again, and that is when the antichrist will come and the world ends.
If you read my stuff, you will know I take the mystics’ position because only it fully agrees with all analogies and data of Scripture and Tradition.
Just my two cents, anyway.
Thanks if you read this far.
J
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Protestant101
Guest
Hmmm; not a single reference for the “material” at this apologetics cult “ministry,” it makes one wonder where they get their fiction from.
In regards to the Church’s ultimate trial; I would like to know more about official Catholic teachings on the Book of Revelation. Any verse or passage from this Bible Book would be interesting for me to hear you comment on.
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Filius99993
Guest
Ahh, another entertaining post from Protestant 101. If you define this forum as a “Cult”, then what separates it from Protestantism as a “cult”?
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Benadam
Guest
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In the book of revelation it is mentioned that the spirit of prophecy is Jesus. Like Jesus prophecy was, is, and yet to come. It has happened, is happening and is yet to be complete.
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I think the Church Militant will as the suffering of the final trial increases and becomes all encompassing, will open the doors of the Church Suffering so wide that purgatory will be a visible reality on earth. Purgatory not just a mystical contemplative experience but as anyone who is destined for salvation would experience it .The world will see living people transforming in the torments of purgatory. I think that process from sin to perfection and ascension made visible is the New Jerusalem coming down from heaven.
I think Christ’s returning is the cause of the final trial. It is how creation is responding to His Glorified presence, as the Marriage of heaven earth that He accomplished in His own self proceeds to completion. Then I think He is present just as He really is.**
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hawkeye
Guest
Well try Wikipedia quote: Miller predicted on the basis of Daniel 8:14 and the “day-year principle” that Jesus Christ would return to Earth on October 22, 1844. When this failed to occur, most of his followers disbanded and returned to their original churches.
Well I haven’t read all of the thread, frankly don’t have the time, anyway what is your view of Revelation ?
Would your main concern be a about Rome and the seven hills and the Catholic Church being the… w.o.b… the abomination of desolation etc; ?
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Protestant101
Guest
Wikipedia is done by many and varied activist elements; I would not go there for CREDIBLE DETAILS
But no; my main concern is nothing to do with the wob. I am trying to explore how Catholics interpret the Book of Revelation on an official basis.
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vern_humphrey
Guest
The answer is, we don’t.
We do draw a few points of belief from it – such as the Queen of Heaven, the time of tribulation and so on – but we do not have an overall interpretation. Nor do we consider it a prediction of the temporal future in the supermarket-tabloid fashion. In fact we consider such interpretations to be unacceptable.
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Filius99993
Guest
I second this.
The Book of Revelation is just one of many apocalyptic books in the Bible. People tend to forget that the Book of Daniel and such are also apocalyptic books. But neither Daniel or Revelation necessarily say exactly how the world will end… it’s based on a dream, so I wouldn’t take it literally in any case in the first place.
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vern_humphrey
Guest
The Church’s position is that much of Revelation is in code (that’s what apocalyptic writing is, writing that can only be understood by those in the know.) It is apparently a polemic against the Roman Empire (which is reason enough to hide its meaning!!) occasioned by the Second Imperial Persecution under Domitian.
Also, much of it is eschatological – that is, pretaining to end things, and hence not to be understood in terms of historical time.
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hawkeye
Guest
Well every site I looked in has said what Wikipedia said, unless they get their info from them.
Answers.com Adventism was founded during a period marked by millennialism by William Miller (1782 – 1849), a former U.S. army officer, who asserted that Christ would return to separate saints from sinners and inaugurate his 1,000-year kingdom on earth sometime in the year before March 21, 1844. After that date passed, Miller and his followers set a new date, Oct. 22, 1844.
John the seer of Patmos.
For example,from the title of his book - Apocalypse, Revelation - the words “apocalypse, apocalyptic” were introduced into our language and, although inaccurately, they call to mind the idea of an incumbent catastrophe.
The Book should be understood against the backdrop of the dramatic experiences of the seven Churches of Asia (Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia, Laodicea) which had to face serious difficulties at the end of the first century - persecutions and also inner tensions - in their witness to Christ.
John addresses them, showing acute pastoral sensitivity to the persecuted Christians, whom he exhorts to be steadfast in the faith and not to identify with the pagan world. His purpose is constituted once and for all by the revelation, starting with the death and Resurrection of Christ, of the meaning of human history…
More from the Vatican.
Anyway I’ve heard non Catholics over here describe the RCC as being the w.o.b because of the seven hills described in Revelation.
Problem is Vatican hill isn’t one of them, it’s opposite the seven hills.
Source
Here’s a treatise on the Beast of Revelation.
William Miller
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Protestant101
Guest
Wel it is totally unacceptable to get the “straight goods” on Adventists or any other group without going directly to the source. People want to go to every conceivable anti-Adventist site to get “the real truth” on Adventists, when they could just go to the official Adventist web site and actually do just that: GET THE REAL TRUTH.
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Protestant101
Guest
The very first verse of Revelation says: “The Revelation of Jesus Christ.”
Why would such a statement be made, if it is “not to be understood?”
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Nino
Guest
FIrst here in the so called big apple there would be vendors sellng tee shirts proclaiming…‘last day’ get em while their hot…also why not max out ones credit card? It was the catcher for the Yanks who supposidly declared “it aint over till its over!”…many folks when they get old and are sick feel maybe its the end times…after me the deluge! …and so with all of this social engineering by our betters what do we have in abndance as we go marching along into this new century?..violence,vandalism,drug use,teen pregnancies,unruly classrooms,academic deterioration etc etc as we parents are insulted and demoted to just paying for the bills but so what…lets hold hands,sing Kumbaya and enjoy our new found feel good religion. Terri Schiavo gave her life for us also…
po18guy
Well-known member
101, why not preach and work toward Protestant unity first? Once you have achieved that, then come “reform” us!
I simply don’t understand this fascination with the end times!?! The day I have my fatal coronary, or someone else is struck by a car is our “end time”. Didn’t Christ admonish us to remain awake rather than to attempt to understand the final days? Even if you completely understand the last days, how will that deepen your love of Christ?
Like I said, I don’t get the fascination.
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Protestant101
Guest
Are you saying that you don’t know how to answer my post #115?
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spauline
Guest
I gave a lengthy response, but it has gone ignored. By Catholics and Protestant 101.
Got news for ya, vern, and all you other doubters:
Just because the apoc isn’t what Hal Lindsay and TIm Lahaye thinks it is, and just because SDAs anti-Catholicism is not right either, doesn’t mean it belongs merely in the first century.
Salvation History is revelatory. Including the Church age.
Typical Catholics may be content to say that all Divine Revelation tells of the Church age is that it is merely a field of wheat and tares and a vague millennium.
You can be content all you want, but i got news for you, you supposedly wise vern and others.
THere’s a hell of alot more to it than that.
Got Q’s for you so called know it all Catholics who smugly dismiss Prot 101: does the Q “that they may be one” have anything to do with Church history, does the apoc have anything to do with that?
The NT Revelation no longer concerns itself with individual Gentile Kingdoms, as with the OT apoc Daniel.
Christ has revealed that it is the spiritual conditions that make or break history.
The Church prays for no specific Gentile civs in the Eucharistic Prayer. But she prays for unity amongst Christians. She dogmatically defines separation in the Body of Christ, schism, heresy.
The CCC references Islam (a historical spiritual condition, a response against the Trinity and Incarnation, dogmatic sources of truth), Schism (the Orthodox are historical spiritual condition, a response against Peter, a dogmatic source of truth), Scandal (the moral fall of the late Middle Age clergy is a historical spiritual disorder), Heresy (the Protestant Rebellion was a great historical spiritual condition, a response against the general Bishops and Oral Tradition, both dogmatic sources of truth), the Supernatural death of the Enlightenment (a response against the chaos of Christian division, and an attack on Scripture and all Divine Revelation, both dogmatic sources of truth), and the modern secular messianism (a response against all Divine Truth, even reason, which is a dogmatic source of truth, see Vat I, in repsonse to atheism).
So, vern, and all you “Catholic” Mr Know it alls, who smugly dismisses any talk of the Apoc, you don’t think Divine Revelation has anything to say about these stages, that it’s all just a vague millennium and nothign more?
Continue to live in darkness, if you wish. When will you wake from your slumber? When the Muslims detonate the first nuclear bomb on what will most likely be some city in the West?
Got news for ya, vern, and all you other doubters:
Just because the apoc isn’t what Hal Lindsay and TIm Lahaye thinks it is, and just because SDAs anti-Catholicism is not right either, doesn’t mean it belongs merely in the first century.
Salvation History is revelatory. Including the Church age.
Typical Catholics may be content to say that all Divine Revelation tells of the Church age is that it is merely a field of wheat and tares and a vague millennium.
You can be content all you want, but i got news for you, you supposedly wise vern and others.
THere’s a hell of alot more to it than that.
Got Q’s for you so called know it all Catholics who smugly dismiss Prot 101: does the Q “that they may be one” have anything to do with Church history, does the apoc have anything to do with that?
The NT Revelation no longer concerns itself with individual Gentile Kingdoms, as with the OT apoc Daniel.
Christ has revealed that it is the spiritual conditions that make or break history.
The Church prays for no specific Gentile civs in the Eucharistic Prayer. But she prays for unity amongst Christians. She dogmatically defines separation in the Body of Christ, schism, heresy.
The CCC references Islam (a historical spiritual condition, a response against the Trinity and Incarnation, dogmatic sources of truth), Schism (the Orthodox are historical spiritual condition, a response against Peter, a dogmatic source of truth), Scandal (the moral fall of the late Middle Age clergy is a historical spiritual disorder), Heresy (the Protestant Rebellion was a great historical spiritual condition, a response against the general Bishops and Oral Tradition, both dogmatic sources of truth), the Supernatural death of the Enlightenment (a response against the chaos of Christian division, and an attack on Scripture and all Divine Revelation, both dogmatic sources of truth), and the modern secular messianism (a response against all Divine Truth, even reason, which is a dogmatic source of truth, see Vat I, in repsonse to atheism).
So, vern, and all you “Catholic” Mr Know it alls, who smugly dismisses any talk of the Apoc, you don’t think Divine Revelation has anything to say about these stages, that it’s all just a vague millennium and nothign more?
Continue to live in darkness, if you wish. When will you wake from your slumber? When the Muslims detonate the first nuclear bomb on what will most likely be some city in the West?
J
juliamajor
Guest
Me too- I don’t get it at all-Protestant 101 must be lucky that he has such insight into Revelation which has baffled many a scholar over the centuries. Can’t help but think that that Jesus meant it very much as a parable( which He was a master of) to get people to think. The more we cogitate the more insights we can get. Parables in the Ancient Near East don’t always have easy answers.This is another example of reading scripture all in the same manner- when it should be read by the genre it represents.One size does NOT fit all. Besides we’re supposed to get on with our lives and live it as if today were our last day on earth. The readiness is all.
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