The Church's Ultimate Trial

[po18guy]

Are you saying that you don’t know how to answer my post #115?

Aren’t you reading into it with you own expectations? Since the Apostles, who lived and taught with Christ for three years steady, did not understand, how can we expect to, unless we count ourselves superior to them?

Where does it say that it will be, or even must be understood? How can mere creations understand the unfathomable revelation of an infinite God? We flatter ourselves to even attempt such an impossibility.

Christ’s peace.

 

[vern_humphrey]

The very first verse of Revelation says: “The Revelation of Jesus Christ.”

Why would such a statement be made, if it is “not to be understood?”

You quoted the wrong part of my post.

Also, much of it is eschatological – that is, pretaining to end things, and hence not to be understood in terms of historical time.

That doesn’t say it is “not to be understood,” but rather that it is to be understood in eschatological terms.

However, much of Revelation is meant to be understood only by Christians. It is a subversive document, a polemic against the Roman Empire, and would make things worse for Christians if the authorities could understand it.

That is the signature of apocalyptic literature, that it is written for a particular “in group” and not meant to be understood by outsiders. Apocalyptic literature flourished from about 400 BC to about 200 AD, and is characterized by being composed under persecution.

 

[spauline]

Aren’t you reading into it with you own expectations? Since the Apostles, who lived and taught with Christ for three years steady, did not understand, how can we expect to, unless we count ourselves superior to them?

Where does it say that it will be, or even must be understood? How can mere creations understand the unfathomable revelation of an infinite God? We flatter ourselves to even attempt such an impossibility.

Christ’s peace.

You do not fully know what you are talking about.

first, there is the q of whether the apostles understood what was written. Probably they did.

secondly, doctrine DEVELOPS. St. Paul prophesies of the ultimate doctrinal development, the mystery of iniquity. It has not been revealed by the Church yet, but it will, PRIOR to the end of time.

The apocalypse concerns the full meaning of God’s Plan for the Redemption of the human race. It is the full meaning of Salvation History.

Then Ratzinger commented when writing on eschatology that as more history unfolds in the NT age, the Church will recognize more what is revealed in the texts of Scripture concerning the Plan.

In fact, the SDA approach comes close to the proper way to view it, namely, as unfolding across the history of the Christianity. Where they go wrong is their anti-Catholicism and not being Catholic.

In effect, the Church will most likely turn the tables on them: the spiritual history of the Church age vindicates Catholicism. The Whore is not the RCC, and the beast is not the papacy.

The beast is image of the fallen nature of man, that exerts itself repeatedly over salvation history. The Whore is the symbol of worldly messianism, and unfaithfulness to the truths of God, total unfaithfulness to the Revelation of God and morality of God, which holds considerable sway in the modern world.

by your scoffing dismissal, you are doing injustice to the Church. The Scriptures were meant to be understood, INCLUDING the apocalypse. If not, why are they there. The key to understanding is to apply Catholic and Scriptural analogies.

 

[hawkeye]

Wel it is totally unacceptable to get the “straight goods” on Adventists or any other group without going directly to the source. People want to go to every conceivable anti-Adventist site to get “the real truth” on Adventists, when they could just go to the official Adventist web site and actually do just that: GET THE REAL TRUTH.

The real truth ? I did you the honor of at least looking at the site, and this is what I discovered.

Think about it. Our history is rooted in the Millerite movement. Based on William Miller’s calculations of Daniel, he ended up with a date: 1843-44. After the failure of the date, Hiram Edson got a vision while walking through a cornfield which explained the situation.

Here

So, vern, and all you “Catholic” Mr Know it alls, who smugly dismisses any talk of the Apoc, you don’t think Divine Revelation has anything to say about these stages, that it’s all just a vague millennium and nothign more?

I can’t speak for the rest of them, but I do not dismiss Revelation, and I did not claim to “know it all” in the great scheme of things we probably know very little.

Continue to live in darkness, if you wish. When will you wake from your slumber? When the Muslims detonate the first nuclear bomb on what will most likely be some city in the West?

Jesus said there would be wars and rumors of wars, but it is not the end.

The Acts Of The Apostles

7 But he said to them: It is not for you to know the times or moments, which the Father hath put in his own power:

The Whore is the symbol of worldly messianism, and unfaithfulness to the truths of God,

Thank-you, it’s a welcome change from being called the w.o.b

Jesus gave a lot of advice, it would be better to trim your lamp, don’t put it under the bed, while lit that is, and make sure you have oil, in other-words be ready, because we don’t know when He will return.

Matt:25

Matt: 24:36 But of that day and hour no one knoweth, not the angels of heaven, but the Father alone.

So even if you think you have deciphered Revelations, you will not know the day or the hour, better to be ready instead of worrying about it, as Jesus said.

Matt:6:34 "Therefore do not be anxious about tomorrow, for tomorrow will be anxious for itself. Let the day’s own trouble be sufficient for the day.

 

[spauline]

The real truth ? I did you the honor of at least looking at the site, and this is what I discovered.

Think about it. Our history is rooted in the Millerite movement. Based on William Miller’s calculations of Daniel, he ended up with a date: 1843-44. After the failure of the date, Hiram Edson got a vision while walking through a cornfield which explained the situation.

Here

I can’t speak for the rest of them, but I do not dismiss Revelation, and I did not claim to “know it all” in the great scheme of things we probably know very little.

Jesus said there would be wars and rumors of wars, but it is not the end.

The Acts Of The Apostles

7 But he said to them: It is not for you to know the times or moments, which the Father hath put in his own power:

Thank-you, it’s a welcome change from being called the w.o.b

Jesus gave a lot of advice, it would be better to trim your lamp, don’t put it under the bed, while lit that is, and make sure you have oil, in other-words be ready, because we don’t know when He will return.

Matt:25

Matt: 24:36 But of that day and hour no one knoweth, not the angels of heaven, but the Father alone.

So even if you think you have deciphered Revelations, you will not know the day or the hour, better to be ready instead of worrying about it, as Jesus said.

Matt:6:34 "Therefore do not be anxious about tomorrow, for tomorrow will be anxious for itself. Let the day’s own trouble be sufficient for the day.

i’m not worried about the literal time of the Second Coming. I know there have always been wars in all centuries. that wasn’t my point. I’m saying, there is a spiritual process to Salvation History, including the Church age. I know I need to be ready for my end, which is my death. Amen.

I know I can’t know for sure that I am correctly deciphering the Book. But the Church will eventually. Which is to say, not that she will know the literal day and hour, but that she will recognize the complete spiritual ages of Salvaitn history are and when the world will be in the final stage of darkness.

On account of this, seeing as the supreme darkness of secular apostasy governs a great portion of humanity, the question needs to be looked into deeper, and that is what you are dismissing. In effec, you are then doing ecumenical damage.

You keep accusing me of asking the wrong questions, when I do not ask the questions you think i ask. You always use “we know not the day or hour” to say, “therefore, ask NO questions whatsoever about history.” that is isn’t what Jesus said. what Jesus meant was, it is not for us to know LITERAL years and days, but it is for us to know the FIGURATIVE days and ages of history. You use the one verse to deny even the figurative and spiritual, simply because we are admittedly not meant to know the literal.

bottom line: we will never the literal times and seasons, but the Church will eventually know the FIGURATIVE times and seasons, that is, the greater spiritual ages.

If you are not going to try to probe Salvation and Church history in greater spiritual depth, you should keep your mouth shut.

 

[spauline]

Dear hawkeye, and similar persons here,

What i’m really saying is this: the apocalypse is not about the day and the hour of the Second Coming in a literal sense. It is about the Divine Plan of Salvation History, the WHOLE of it, in terms of the bigger spiritual ages. Hence, your hand waving and attempt to dismiss the book as only applicable to the first century is a cop out.

If you cannot make theology relevant to to the time you live in, and in relation to paralllel events, you have failed as a theologian.

Prot101 comes in and asks legitimate questions, and you basically brush him off.

Admittedly, the Church has not fully solved the meaning of the book, but considering the times we live in, a second look is warranted. And am I saying “the very end is near.” No, for, as i indicated, I have hope humanity can be restored to the Catholic Gospel.

but that does not mean that we should smugly brush aside the false prophet of secular apostate materialism, and also look at the general spiritual process that got us here.

In effect then, I would actually counter the SDA interp with a Catholic version, that is indeed historicism, like the SDA, but that gives a Catholic look at it, and from a broader spiritual perspective, and one that recognizes multidimensionality to the book.

In effect, what i think it boils down to is, preterism is no longer a sufficient response to our separated brethren. A deeper theology of the history that has transpired beyond the Early church is necessary, for it has significannce and bearing on the Divine Plan.

 

[vern_humphrey]

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

676 The Antichrist’s deception already begins to take shape in the world every time the claim is made to realize within history that messianic hope which can only be realized beyond history through the eschatological judgment. The Church has rejected even modified forms of this falsification of the kingdom to come under the name of millenarianism,577 especially the “intrinsically perverse” political form of a secular messianism.578

 

[hawkeye]

If you are not going to try to probe Salvation and Church history in greater spiritual depth, you should keep your mouth shut.

I think I was answering questions in a respectful tone, your tone, from this end seems very harsh, “keep your mouth shut” very nice.

I’ll take the well-mannered advice of Or Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ over yours, but thanks anyway.

 

[spauline]

I think I was answering questions in a respectful tone, your tone, from this end seems very harsh, “keep your mouth shut” very nice.

ok, look, I apologize, i get easily frustrated. I ask you to forgive me, if you can, I am out of line.

I just wanted to emphasize that I think Catholics and theologians must search for a more meaningful way to respond to the questions of our separated brothers and sisters. History I think has more meaning and relevance, especially the Church age, than to just be swept under the rug and allegorized away in vagueness.

At least, that is my humble opinion.

 

[hawkeye]

ok, look, I apologize, i get easily frustrated. I ask you to forgive me, if you can, I am out of line.

I just wanted to emphasize that I think Catholics and theologians must search for a more meaningful way to respond to the questions of our separated brothers and sisters. History I think has more meaning and relevance, especially the Church age, than to just be swept under the rug and allegorized away in vagueness.

At least, that is my humble opinion.

No apology needed, but I accept your words, all I’m emphasizing here is we need to be careful, we don’t want to wind up with egg on our face like William Miller.

Even in the case of Fatima, all the Church will say is they are the most prophetic, go-to the Vatican website and you’ll see.

Protestant 101 insinuated that there wasn’t any Church response to Revelations, I searched and found 1.

I’m sure there’s more, but one will do, the Bible is a fascinating book, open to all kinds of mis-interpretation.

 

[spauline]

No apology needed, but I accept your words, all I’m emphasizing here is we need to be careful, we don’t want to wind up with egg on our face like William Miller.

Even in the case of Fatima, all the Church will say is they are the most prophetic, go-to the Vatican website and you’ll see.

Protestant 101 insinuated that there wasn’t any Church response to Revelations, I searched and found 1.

I’m sure there’s more, but one will do, the Bible is a fascinating book, open to all kinds of mis-interpretation.

thank you for accepting my apology, and I agree we must be cautious. Hence, whatever may be true of Scripture itself, and what meanigns the Church will get, the question from our separated brethren can serve as a discussion of the salvation history thus far, theologically speaking.

but again, thanks for accepting my apology.

 

[trustinyou]

In terms of “no one could be saved by your miracle Church until the mid 1800s,” you show your gross lack of truthful knowledge about the Adventist Church and what she teaches. It would be interesting to see you prove, in another thread, that this Church teaches that people cannot be saved outside the Adventist Church. Your charges deliver only a derisory thwacking, completely devoid of reality.

The fact also remains that my answer would actually just be the #2 above that you posted. When it comes to prophecy, and end time events, the Roman Catholic leadership is very vague. Their uncertainty, and indecisiveness in this area is clear.

heres a website that always looks at signs… www.spiritdaily.com there are also plenty of catholic teaching on endtime events on this site and on other catholic sites…your only going to believe what you want to,this is what all the early apostles and church fathers tryed to prevent,those believing what they want to…

 

[hawkeye]

the question from our separated brethren can serve as a discussion of the salvation history thus far, theologically speaking.

but again, thanks for accepting my apology.

We should thank God for our separated brethren, their arguments awaken us from our slumber, and stop us being so complacent.