The Closing of "Eastern Christianity"

[zerocrossing]

Orthodox Christian Churches do recognize the Pope as a valid successor of Peter, just that in earlier centuries the Catholics fell into heresy and split themselves off from the Church Jesus Himself established.

Our understanding of the role of Peter and his successors is **different **than Catholic understanding; however, the historical succession of Peter’s successors have never been questioned.

Please don’t misrepresent the Orthodox views/teachings. That doesn’t help.

For starters, my post said “most EOs.” It did not say “Orthodox Christian Churches.”

Secondly, I did not refer to the “historical succession.” I fully understand that Orthodoxy recognizes that the current Pope has had hands laid on him by people who had hands laid on them going all the way back directly to Peter. However, according to the many many Orthodox I have had face-to-face interactions with in Orthodox churches, this historical succession does not constitute a *valid *succession - because Rome (according to most EOs, including yourself) is apostate and heretical. According to the Greeks and Russians who taught me Orthodoxy, the validity of Holy Orders and other sacraments must be tied to true (i.e. orthodox) belief, which you do not believe Rome possesses. And yes, they also told me explicitly that the Roman See is vacant because it is not Orthodox. Or perhaps you would prefer me to say that there is no current Roman Patriarchate because Rome is (according to you) apostate and schismatic.

I am not misrepresenting what I have heard many many Orthodox say in face-to-face interactions. I am simply repeating what they told me. Perhaps you have been told differently. I know that Bishop KALLISTOS of Diocletia is less strident on these issues. But if you believe Catholics are heretics, then you probably have little use for Bishop KALLISTOS. What is your jurisdiction?

 

[Marc1152]

They needed to close the Eastern Orthodox forum because we have too good a case for being the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. The Orthodox posters were well informed and more times than not, out debated the RCC posters.

RCC members fight on their left flank very well, defending the faith to the Protestants. They have a very weak right flank, the Orthodox. This is often very unsettling to RCC folks who are used to wining or doing very well on all the hot button topics with Protestants

Forgive me… This looks like a case of cowardice from where I sit.

ourlifeinchrist.com

 

[Marina14]

For starters, my post said “most EOs.” It did not say “Orthodox Christian Churches.”

Secondly, I did not refer to the “historical succession.” I fully understand that Orthodoxy recognizes that the current Pope has had hands laid on him by people who had hands laid on them going all the way back directly to Peter. However, according to the many many Orthodox I have had face-to-face interactions with in Orthodox churches, this historical succession does not constitute a *valid *succession - because Rome (according to most EOs, including yourself) is apostate and heretical. According to the Greeks and Russians who taught me Orthodoxy, the validity of Holy Orders and other sacraments must be tied to true (i.e. orthodox) belief, which you do not believe Rome possesses. And yes, they also told me explicitly that the Roman See is vacant because it is not Orthodox. Or perhaps you would prefer me to say that there is no current Roman Patriarchate because Rome is (according to you) apostate and schismatic.

I am not misrepresenting what I have heard many many Orthodox say in face-to-face interactions. I am simply repeating what they told me. Perhaps you have been told differently. I know that Bishop KALLISTOS of Diocletia is less strident on these issues. But if you believe Catholics are heretics, then you probably have little use for Bishop KALLISTOS. What is your jurisdiction?

Wow - you are so far off base, you’re not even at the Baseball game!

**Pope of Rome, currently Pope Benedict 16th, is both a *Valid and Historical *Successor of St. Peter. **SCOBA (made up Hierarchs of Orthodox Churches in the United States: Greek, Antiochian, Serbian, Carpatho Russian, OCA, Bulgarian, Romanian, Ukrainian and Albanian) state that the Sacraments in the Roman Catholic Church are valid.

I said this before, I say it again, take a look at Statements SCOBA has made: www.scoba.us/resources/orthodox-catholic/1984lima.html for details of these statements.

What is not believed by Orthodox is the Role of the Successor of St. Peter as Supreme above all other Patriarchates. They hold that the sucessors had a position of primacy. This primacy was lost based on heretical teachings: Filioque, Infallibility, etc.

Please stop trying to cause divsion between the two Churches where there is none!

As for me personally: I am Greek Orthodox, my spiritual father is Russian Orthodox, my confessor is Serbian Orthodox and I attend all of these Churches as well as visit on occasion the OCA Church. I receive the Holy Mysteries in all of these Churches with the permission of the priests. I guess you could say I am well rounded in the Orthodox world and I can assure you there are no jurisdictional problems as I’ve often heard Catholics claim.

 

[Joab_Anias]

They needed to close the Eastern Orthodox forum because we have too good a case for being the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. The Orthodox posters were well informed and more times than not, out debated the RCC posters.

RCC members fight on their left flank very well, defending the faith to the Protestants. They have a very weak right flank, the Orthodox. This is often very unsettling to RCC folks who are used to wining or doing very well on all the hot button topics with Protestants

Forgive me… This looks like a case of cowardice from where I sit.

ourlifeinchrist.com

I find this inflamitory and indicitive of the consequences you mention.

Flame on.

Peace.

 

[Marc1152]

I find this inflamitory and indicitive of the consequences you mention.

Flame on.

Peace.

And yet, it’s the Truth…

 

[Irenicist]

They needed to close the Eastern Orthodox forum because we have too good a case for being the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. The Orthodox posters were well informed and more times than not, out debated the RCC posters.

RCC members fight on their left flank very well, defending the faith to the Protestants. They have a very weak right flank, the Orthodox. This is often very unsettling to RCC folks who are used to wining or doing very well on all the hot button topics with Protestants

Forgive me… This looks like a case of cowardice from where I sit.

ourlifeinchrist.com

Can one forgive one who does not really repent? You may have to take me on faith when I tell you that this kind of observation tends to make the writer seem petty and doesn’t enhance his credibility.

You were told why the forum was closed. The reasons are plausible and you have no grounds, other than triumphalist prejudices, to question the good faith of those responsible.

Now, you might question the choice of forums to be abandoned, but unless you have missed the barrage of begging e-mails we have all been subjected to, you should be aware that there is a resource issue.

The Orthodox are not “Catholic” as those in communion with Rome understand the term (your orthodoxy and apostolicity are conceded, not your catholicity) and so there is no prima facie reason why discussion on Orthodoxy should not be here rather than in a privileged forum of its own. It’s not as if you have all been banned from the site. If you think the Orthodox were winning all the arguments before, why would they be less likely to do so here?

Irenicist

 

[Dauphin]

And yet, it’s the Truth…

Catholics are much more used to debating protestants. If english-speaking countries had large Orthodox populations to ward off, I’m sure our “right flank” would be much better defended on these forums.

 

[Irenicist]

Wow - you are so far off base, you’re not even at the Baseball game!

**Pope of Rome, currently Pope Benedict 16th, is both a *Valid and Historical ***Successor of St. Peter. SCOBA (made up Hierarchs of Orthodox Churches in the United States: Greek, Antiochian, Serbian, Carpatho Russian, OCA, Bulgarian, Romanian, Ukrainian and Albanian) state that the Sacraments in the Roman Catholic Church are valid.

I said this before, I say it again, take a look at Statements SCOBA has made: www.scoba.us/resources/orthodox-catholic/1984lima.html for details of these statements.

What is not believed by Orthodox is the Role of the Successor of St. Peter as Supreme above all other Patriarchates. They hold that the sucessors had a position of primacy. This primacy was lost based on heretical teachings: Filioque, Infallibility, etc.

Please stop trying to cause divsion between the two Churches where there is none!

As for me personally: I am Greek Orthodox, my spiritual father is Russian Orthodox, my confessor is Serbian Orthodox and I attend all of these Churches as well as visit on occasion the OCA Church. I receive the Holy Mysteries in all of these Churches with the permission of the priests. I guess you could say I am well rounded in the Orthodox world and I can assure you there are no jurisdictional problems as I’ve often heard Catholics claim.

If Catholic sacraments are valid, why does the Greek Church rebaptize Catholic converts?

If there are no jurisdictional problems in Orthodoxy, can you tell me what is the canonical status of the Ukrainian or Macedonian Orthodox Churches?

Is the Church of Estonia autocephallous?

Who is the true Patriarch of Jerusalem?

Are you confident all Orthodox would offer the same answers?

Might I suggest that your confidence in speaking for Orthodoxy may be a tad excessive? That doesn’t mean you can’t or shouldn’t express your views. But this sort of thing gets pretty old for Catholics who have read and even met face to face a diversity of theologically sophisticated and yet often far more ecumenically-minded Orthodox.

Irenicist

 

[swariffin]

If it were up to me, there would be three “non-Catholic” forums–one for the Eastern Churches not in communion with Rome (whom Rome recognizes as having valid apostolic succession), one for Trinitarian Protestants (who have valid baptism, according to Rome), and one for everyone else. But I’m not running this board–and that’s probably a good thing, apart from the obvious disqualifier that I’m not Catholic!:

Edwin

Dear Edwin, I don’t think that you are a troublemaker at all. But you are right. Discussion about the Eastern Orthodox should not be in this forum. If I may suggest, it should be in the apologetics instead.

 

[jam070406]

They needed to close the Eastern Orthodox forum because we have too good a case for being the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. The Orthodox posters were well informed and more times than not, out debated the RCC posters.

RCC members fight on their left flank very well, defending the faith to the Protestants. They have a very weak right flank, the Orthodox. This is often very unsettling to RCC folks who are used to wining or doing very well on all the hot button topics with Protestants

Forgive me… This looks like a case of cowardice from where I sit.

ourlifeinchrist.com

And yet when Orthodox questioned or insulted the Traditions of the RCC and I asked them to take it to the Traditional section they would not. When in their comfort zone with other Orthodox spewing polemics you were fine, but, taking the discussion to people that would have a better defense of Tradition and better informed, the Orthodox turned into cowards. Nice try.

 

[Joab_Anias]

And yet, it’s the Truth…

Hardly. I saw this premise of claiming to win an argument several times. It was especially strong when there was no voice of opposition. I also saw flaming and trolling all the time and even much worse by completely uncharitable belittling and insults to snide sarcasms aimed at provocation. All behaviors inconsistent with the faith they professed.

Not on one issue was I ever convinced in favor of Orthodoxy’s schism any more than any Protestants. Though there is truth in all religions and outside of the Church that can expose hypocrisy and provoke thought on truth within only the universal Church is the pillar and foundation of said truth. This was shown again and again but met only with obstinacies or worse as mentioned above.

Several disparities were reduced to trivial differences in manner of expressing the same faith on several occasions but would arise again later as if no understanding had ever been gained. Again and again the debate would come full circle to authority and obedience. Even in the light of humble presentation of scripture and tradition it was simply ignored or the presenter or his church was bashed. Only by a few were any serious dialogues taken serious. The usual norm was to reply for another and derail or descend into polemics over what could not be answered.

The arguments for Orthodoxy on the old thread, though at times thought provoking failed to win me over either theologically or scholastically. Meaning that refuting the tradition of the Church and its guidance by the Holy Spirit is impossible because it’s irrefutable. I gave it every chance to do just that and it always failed.

Peace.

 

[zerocrossing]

Wow - you are so far off base, you’re not even at the Baseball game!

**Pope of Rome, currently Pope Benedict 16th, is both a *Valid and Historical ***Successor of St. Peter. SCOBA (made up Hierarchs of Orthodox Churches in the United States: Greek, Antiochian, Serbian, Carpatho Russian, OCA, Bulgarian, Romanian, Ukrainian and Albanian) state that the Sacraments in the Roman Catholic Church are valid.

I said this before, I say it again, take a look at Statements SCOBA has made: www.scoba.us/resources/orthodox-catholic/1984lima.html for details of these statements.

If I am merely repeating what I have heard from the vast majority of Orthodox PEOPLE (priests and laity) that I have personally known, then how am I the one who is “way offbase”? Perhaps the many many many Orthodox people I’ve known were way offbase. But that has nothing to do with me. I am merely reporting what they said.

Also, you keep mentioning SCOBA, but I am not talking about official positions of Orthodox hierarchs. I have never once presented this as the official position of the Orthodox Church. However, it is certainly the position of the vast majority of EOs I’ve known.

SCOBA may say one thing, but individual EO people may say something entirely different. In fact, many of the Orthodox I’ve known were very traditional and had very little respect for SCOBA, which they thought was way too liberal and too accommodating to the American way of life.

But let me repeat: I am not talking about the Orthodox Churches as such (i.e. SCOBA or jurisdictional entities). I am talking about what I have heard from a large majority of the Orthodox priests and Orthodox laity (i.e. EOs) that I have personally known - in GOA, OCA, and Antiochian churches. If it’s not what you’ve heard, how fortunate for you. It’s a very substantial part of what I heard during my time in Orthodoxy.

Please stop trying to cause divsion between the two Churches where there is none!

I would appreciate it if you would refrain from telling me what I am TRYING to do. I am not TRYING to cause anything. I am simply discussing personal experience with Orthodoxy. It is also rather amusing that you’re talking about me trying to cause division, when you’re the one on a Catholic board calling Catholics heretics and schismatics.

As for me personally: I am Greek Orthodox, my spiritual father is Russian Orthodox, my confessor is Serbian Orthodox and I attend all of these Churches as well as visit on occasion the OCA Church. I receive the Holy Mysteries in all of these Churches with the permission of the priests. I guess you could say I am well rounded in the Orthodox world and I can assure you there are no jurisdictional problems as I’ve often heard Catholics claim.

Of course, you can receive sacraments in other jurisdictions. I wasn’t even raising that as an issue. When I asked your jurisdiction it was more to get the feel for where you’re coming from. OCA has a different feel from ROCOR - big time.

However, to say that there are NO jurisdictional problems in Orthodoxy is quite disingenuous. I completely disagree with those Catholics who claim that Orthodoxy is just a bunch of jurisdictional splits. Certainly none of the SCOBA jurisdictions has any problem with other SCOBA jurisdictions. BUT there are a good number of Old Calendrists who have pretty serious issues with SCOBA jurisdictions. Those issues may not always translate into “problems” (if we are defining problem as “out of communion with”), but there are definitely issues nevertheless.

At any rate, you can reference SCOBA, true. But why not find some quotes from the Athonite monks or ROCOR or sundry Old Calendrists on the topics of papal succession and Catholic sacraments, rather than from one of the most “modernist” bodies in all of Orthodoxy? If you can show that the most traditional of traditional Orthodox hold that Pope Benedict XVI is both a valid and historical successor of St. Peter and that Catholic sacraments are valid, then I will certainly concede that most of my Orthodox friends were way offbase!

 

[Isa_Almisry]

Reform and renewal is ongoing. To turn it into revolt or schism on the other hand is a grave error.

Yes, because it removes a boundary marker that our Fathers set up.

Even some protestant Churches recite the filoque.

Two sides of the coin.

 

[swariffin]

hi Edwin,

at a surface level i can acknowledge and even agree with your observations. but at a deeper level i barely agree with anything you wrote at all. yes, by visiting the eastern christianity forum i experienced the cold shoulder that the orthodox posters there turn collectively toward rome as well as the outright hostility that puts paid to any notion we might have of a desire for unity on their part.

and due to that hurtful but necessary experience i can sympathize with how an ecumenical anglo-catholic (not sure if that’s redundant or not; probably not in this day and age) might feel after getting a chilly reception from strict roman catholics who dot every i and cross every t.

but don’t forget that our church is every bit as ancient and apostolic as theirs, with the added benefit of having administrative as well as doctrinal unity. isn’t it possible that they (the orthodox) could be wrong about the great schism and we could be right? i think it’s a mistake to take their claims at face value while being overly skeptical of ours.

at the end of the day, the skepticism about and lack of interest in unity on the part of the orthodox doesn’t make for an embarrassing situation or reflect poorly on us; it reflects poorly on them. as for your naive protestant who is contemplating conversion to rome or orthodoxy, well, that person would have saved himself some time if he had thought long and hard first about which church’s claims to being one, holy and catholic are more likely to be true.

i have mixed feelings about the closing of the eastern christianity board because i certainly learned a lot from it, and i have nothing against the posters who frequented it. as for why it happened, i do think you’re right insofar as the moderators underestimated the hostility of the eastern orthodox posters there to catholicism and their indifference to unity, and that this unremiting hostility does run counter to the purposes of a catholic apologetics website.

but ultimately perhaps they were guests here who became a little too comfortable taking their hosts’ hospitality for granted.

Dear Tomarin,

Basically I agree with you. It seems that unity of the East and West completely in one single organisation will not be feasible at least during our lifetime. For me, a mutual acknowledgement of the validity of each other Eucharist is enough. Both Catholics and the Orthodox should be able to take communion in both “churches” while maintaining the unity with each other “pope”. We can still have each other church organisation. No need for a single one. Put differences of theology aside. I believe that both of the East and West Pastors are very-very-very seldom bring this differences of theology in their homily anyway.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

They were wrong to go about it.

The filioque may not be said in Eastern Rite Catholic Church according to current Code of Canon Law. The filioque clause was not condemned as a heretic by any Church Council. There was Patriarch of Constantinople, who did. He didn’t think it was right for Rome to add anything to Creed.

The Ecumenical canons forbade the addition. Rome wasn’t the one to add it, and she fought against its inclusion. A local council’s miswording trumped the Ecumenical Fathers, and was imposed on the see with the primacy.

 

[Marc1152]

to question the good faith of those responsible.

Yes, I question the good faith of those responsible.

Thanks for your time.

 

[Irenicist]

It is also rather amusing that you’re talking about me trying to cause division, when you’re the one on a Catholic board calling Catholics heretics and schismatics.

Calling Catholics “schismatic” at least reflects the consensual official thinking of the Orthodox Church. It’s the free waving around of the “h” word and the implicit posthumous excommunication of all the Western Fathers and saints that gets me. And yet this is one of the more “moderate” Orthodox voices here. What is one to make of the others who feel free to cast insults and taunts (“cowardly”)?

This site could really use a higher level of Orthodox apologetics, and I mean this seriously. Many of the Orthodox posters here are so bellicose and offensive they undermine the instinctive goodwill most contemporary Catholics have come to feel for the East.

Irenicist

 

[Milliardo]

If Catholic sacraments are valid, why does the Greek Church rebaptize Catholic converts?

I am not sure if all Greek Orthodox churches rebaptize Catholics; however, I know the Orthodox church here does not rebaptize Catholics, but merely chrismates them.

 

[zerocrossing]

I am not sure if all Greek Orthodox churches rebaptize Catholics; however, I know the Orthodox church here does not rebaptize Catholics, but merely chrismates them.

GOA does not rebaptize. How about Greece?

 

[Milliardo]

GOA does not rebaptize. How about Greece?

Well, the Orthodox church near us is Greek, and they don’t generally rebaptize Catholics either (unless the Catholic asks to be rebaptized, of course).