Yes, a lot of people are not familiar with Contemplative Prayer, but I was pleased see the cooperative efforts that are forming in Churches in the Los Angeles area in respect to Centering Prayer groups. It seems much more popular with the laity over here than I ever realized.
As the author notes basically --not for beginners…
And anyone else.
Nobody discussed it! I just stated the fact that many churches in my area do utilize it with the laity and it is popular.
Actually they did.
and approach this work on its own terms.Mystical.this is probably one of the most thoughtful kind messages.You do seem to understand my caution in regards to centering prayer and seem to respect that. Thank you very much
Yes, context is everything!
If we only have exposure to a limited number of spiritual writers our understanding of contemplation is likely to be stunted.False, but we’re not allowed to discuss the banned topic.
I understand. I don’t agree with you about it, partly because from what you have written I am pretty confident I know some of the things you have heard. And in the past I’ve debated them but here I don’t feel that here. I feel more like I’m just nagging and proselytizing.
There is a generous “look inside” at amazon:
Mystical.I am not an intellectual as you probably can tell.I understand. I don’t agree with you about it, partly because from what you have written I am pretty confident I know some of the things you have heard. And in the past I’ve debated them but here I don’t feel that here. I feel more like I’m just nagging and proselytizing.
Why should I push you to read The Cloud? Others push me to do the Rosary – but I really don’t like doing the Rosary and do it only when social situation calls for it like at funeral rosaries or other occasions. People think this is amazing; how can I claim to love Jesus and not do the Rosary a lot like Mary allegedly told us to? There are many different devotions, and many parts to the body. I may think you are missing out on something Really Great, and you may think that I am, and maybe we’re both right.
Plus by gosh this is exactly what the author is saying. Do not push it on other people – actually it was more like do not even “allow” people to read it unless we believe they truly will be disposed toward it. As you say, there are plenty of other devotions.
All of that said, I won’t concede to “stick with other devotions that are not controversial” but I will say “stick with devotions you are moved to do and why do ones that others are”?
So yeah. Maybe I do think you’re missing out, but I’m much less interested that you read the Cloud, in hoping that you haven’t been turned off to contemplative prayer. So I will offer you a book that was being used two years ago as a text for my son’s first year prayer classes at the seminary in St. Louis. It’s very readable and down to earth, and it goes into all forms of prayer and deals with practical issues such as dealing with distractions. In this way if you are still interested in contemplative prayer, here is a way you can gain exposure to it via a book with imprimatur and nihil obstat, used in seminary to introduce those who will be priests, to prayer. So this should sidestep the issues you are mostly concerned about, and does not require reading the Cloud or challenge your sense of orthodoxy:
But I’m not saying you “should check it out” but that “you might like it if you do check it out.”
Armchair Mystic: Easing Into Contemplative Prayer Paperback – April 1, 2001
by Mark E. Thibodeaux S.J. (Author)
Covers:
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Fr. Thibodeaux talks about memorized prayer (talking at God), personal “made-up” prayer (talking to God) and contemplative prayer (listening to God). And gives good advice for all three – not to mention the awesome ideas about praying the Rosary that make me almost enjoy it.
Actually I didn’t notice that. Like I didn’t see any problems with your grammar or anything that just “jumped out” at me and the things you say do seem like they make sense. I have always been on the academic side but I crave the kinds of knowledge that other people have that could give insight into God. I don’t always keep track of “who says what” but I think your ideas are worth reading and considering.
Here I am compelled to ask, “are you kidding me?” Or maybe more specifically “did you think I overestimated you or your ability?”
That’s as much a “mystical state” as any. Mysticism isn’t about being in some oddball state of mind that you don’t want to be in. Mysticism is the “science of love” by some definitions. For me, it includes how we as humans deal with mystery. We are incapable of living correctly according to our own understanding, says the scripture, so we need the training of Jesus and the guidance of the Holy Spirit. This “contemplative” thing might be what bothers you – silence of various kinds can be scary to a lot of people for a lot of reasons. Or maybe you aren’t called to it, or whatever. It may not come through your world as a prayer form, but who knows? Like you talked about the nuns that had the discipline and were joyful – or was that another poster?
That is beautiful, but if you go by the Catechism than you will know that it says Christian prayer “should” advance beyond vocal and meditative, into a prayer of union itself. And then it goes to define that prayer as contemplative. So if you go by the CCC where it describes the expressions of prayer, then you would automatically know about contemplative prayer without the Cloud at all. So you have no excuse to say you are OK with the CCC but not with “contemplative prayer” ok? deal anyway?
kpeople:Well put.That’s as much a “mystical state” as any. Mysticism isn’t about being in some oddball state of mind that you don’t want to be in. Mysticism is the “science of love” by some definitions. For me, it includes how we as humans deal with mystery. We are incapable of living correctly according to our own understanding, says the scripture, so we need the training of Jesus and the guidance of the Holy Spirit. This “contemplative” thing might be what bothers you – silence of various kinds can be scary to a lot of people for a lot of reasons. Or maybe you aren’t called to it, or whatever. It may not come through your world as a prayer form, but who knows? Like you talked about the nuns that had the discipline and were joyful – or was that another poster?
Thanks for the info,but I still prefer vocal prayer and meditation.Perhaps I will be spiritually advanced enough in another 10 years or so that God sees fit to grant me contemplation or union with Him.I am patient.Actually I didn’t notice that. Like I didn’t see any problems with your grammar or anything that just “jumped out” at me and the things you say do seem like they make sense. I have always been on the academic side but I crave the kinds of knowledge that other people have that could give insight into God. I don’t always keep track of “who says what” but I think your ideas are worth reading and considering.
The reason I don’t think you should read the Cloud is that just doesn’t seem like your calling, and you have personal reasons to be suspicious of its Catholicity. Maybe the Spirit moves you some other way.
Here I am compelled to ask, “are you kidding me?” Or maybe more specifically “did you think I overestimated you or your ability?”
You say you are not intellectual and this book is too complicated but you can read all that? To me, that’s about like saying Dr. Seuss is too complicated because the only thing you really understand is the encyclopedia and all of Thomas Acquinas’s writings.
If you are sticking to those books because you are concerned that no other resources are trustworthy, that’s a different story but please don’t tell me it’s because you’re not smart enough to read anything else.
But if you are OK with using the Bible for discussion, especially N.T. afa I’m concerned, that’s a good start. Especially if you think about the Bible as a “training manual” and not a “behavioral cookbook” if you know what I mean. Like if it only informs but it doesn’t shape and change you, including the fruit of the spirit (listed in Gal 5:22-23) then there is much more to be had to make the Good News, truly Good!
That’s as much a “mystical state” as any. Mysticism isn’t about being in some oddball state of mind that you don’t want to be in. Mysticism is the “science of love” by some definitions. For me, it includes how we as humans deal with mystery. We are incapable of living correctly according to our own understanding, says the scripture, so we need the training of Jesus and the guidance of the Holy Spirit. This “contemplative” thing might be what bothers you – silence of various kinds can be scary to a lot of people for a lot of reasons. Or maybe you aren’t called to it, or whatever. It may not come through your world as a prayer form, but who knows? Like you talked about the nuns that had the discipline and were joyful – or was that another poster?
But if you are making excuses to avoid something that may be life-giving, consider what Jesus meant when He said to go “into your inner room” and pray. The houses then did not have “inner rooms” but had only one room. So Jesus was speaking metaphorically. That may not make sense right away but that’s ok because I left out a whole bunch but just wanted to give you that one little pointer to a seed of Good News.
That is beautiful, but if you go by the Catechism than you will know that it says Christian prayer “should” advance beyond vocal and meditative, into a prayer of union itself. And then it goes to define that prayer as contemplative. So if you go by the CCC where it describes the expressions of prayer, then you would automatically know about contemplative prayer without the Cloud at all. So you have no excuse to say you are OK with the CCC but not with “contemplative prayer” ok? deal anyway?
You have a great point about the heart condition not the form. The form is a tool to train my brain and heart to quit fighting or protecting each other or whatever it is they do, that keeps my mind busy and my heart tied in knots most of the day in the “ratrace” of civilization. If it doesn’t do that, I may as well be engaged in vocal prayer or meditation, which are willful mental activities that keep a certain “noise level” between God and my heart. So that’s why sometimes God has to shout at me to get my attention – I’m too busy being Martha to hear when He whispers …
So for me contemplative prayer forms were part of the key. But frankly I’m a lousy “practitioner” because I just sit 10-20 minutes in silence anymore as a routine, but maybe once in a long while. I respect people who do it daily or weekly, and occasionally I join them. Early on I realized that the value of the prayer is not the state of mind during the prayer, but the changes it makes and the seeds that get planted in me, so that my life outside of prayer improves. But personally I lack the discipline to do this silent prayer regularly, but from the times I did it and the things I learned from teachers and sources along the way, now I can gain the benefits even while I’m doing active stuff. Contemplative prayer has played a role in reducing my anger and increasing my patience. Partly because of having engaged in contemplative prayer forms, I can enjoy the moment, or the “Naked Now” as one author puts it, even when I’m saying the Rosary in a group.
The Way of Perfection is not a book so much “about” contemplation as it is a “preparation” for it. Think of it as a prequel to Interior Castle where she treats the contemplative experience much more fully.
You can prefer whatever you want, and remain an “active Catholic” as long as you do the six precepts. Go to Mass on Sundays and holy days, go to confession and receive Communion at times, etc. Everything else is optional. As far as I know, there is no Church teaching that requires any connection at all with a Bible, outside of Mass. It’s only been in the last hundred years that Bibles are freely available for anyone to access.
I don’t know “way of perfection” but “mantra chanting” and “forgetting God” quite frankly, are characterizations that certain popular authors have specifically applied to one particular teacher of one particular form of contemplative prayer. In fact, even within the ranks of the Secular Franciscan, we can’t even have an intelligent discussion on this prayer form that “should be” the goal of all Christians, according to CCC2708, because these satanic lies have filtered their way through the Church and caused divisions and dissent – once that happened, the human egos maintained the rift because it is no longer about “love” but about “being right” when others are wrong.
I think it is important to follow the 10 commandments because they are not about being right but universal.
Oops I edited the last post and it crossed with this post, so you are replying to an earlier draft.
