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Robert_Sock
Guest
Prayer often leads the proficient to an altered state of consciousness, using psychological jargon.
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Robert_Sock
Guest
That’s not my point. I’m saying that some forms of prayer are more proficient. Love exist at different levels, and CP can take a person to new, higher-ordered experiences of love and prayer.
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cjforJesus
Guest
define proficient in a religious context please.
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cjforJesus
Guest
And some prayer can cause the person to experience a psychotic break as in what Carl Jung explains can occur during a kundalini possession. The prayer that leads to this is said to be one that empties the mind.
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Robert_Sock
Guest
The experiencing of new spiritual heights.
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cjforJesus
Guest
experience? Like visions and raptures?
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DBT
Guest
Keeping it real simple:
Beginner: One who meditates
Proficient: One who contemplates
Perfect: One who has been fully transformed by love and into love … the union of wills, transforming union etc
Dave
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Robert_Sock
Guest
No, I do not think so, but to experience union with God, something that is lacking in many of us. I’m still a novice, but from what I already experienced fills me with faith, hope and love.
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cjforJesus
Guest
so you base your faith on experiences?
It is my understanding that union with God which a poster here said corresponds to the 4-7th mansions of St Teresa,is rare.
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Robert_Sock
Guest
Yes, experiences led me back to the Church in 1993, and they have had a huge impact on my beliefs.
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DBT
Guest
A few thoughts on “altered states” and hoping we don’t go down a rabbit hole from which we don’t return …
One of the characteristics of the infused states of prayer described by St. Teresa is the temporary suspension of the faculties … our thinking and reasoning abilities. The experience of this is slight in the prayer of quiet (4th mansion) and complete in the prayer of union (5th mansion). She uses the term “spiritual sleep” to describe the experience of it. And that’s all I really want to say about that.
These states lie in the ordinary way … albeit in an infused setting rather than the acquired discussed so much in this thread. There is nothing we can do to produce this spiritual state for it is a pure gift should God desire to give it. And an individual given such a gift should not consider themselves more holy or special than those who don’t. Further, we should not seek it … but simply be thankful if it’s given. It is not required in any way to be led to sanctity. In fact, most saints (simply my opinion) probably never taste this type of contemplation. Lastly, nothing that has been said in previous posts regarding emptying, voiding etc should be interpreted in anyway so as to lead an individual to the “spiritual sleep” St. Teresa described in such sublime detail. It can’t be done.
Sometimes, God willing, more may flow from this “spiritual sleep.” And herein lies the extraordinary way of contemplation (6th mansion). In this state of spiritual sleep, God will sometimes give imaginary visions or interior locutions. The depth of suspension of the prayer of union may deepen further to ecstasy or rapture. Again, these are not to be sought or desired. And they are not a sign of holiness … for they actually are a very profound type of spiritual imperfection that must be purged prior to transforming union (7th mansion).
Lastly, it is important to note the CCC says nothing about this type of phenomena … and very little about infused contemplation in general. It’s a sad mistake people make to limit their understanding of contemplation to just the infused … because there is so much more to it. That is why I’m thankful for the descriptions put forward in the CCC … it shows that contemplation is a path available to everyone and that one need not experience “phenomena”, sublime though it may be, in order to live a contemplative life.
Hope this helps,
Dave
One of the characteristics of the infused states of prayer described by St. Teresa is the temporary suspension of the faculties … our thinking and reasoning abilities. The experience of this is slight in the prayer of quiet (4th mansion) and complete in the prayer of union (5th mansion). She uses the term “spiritual sleep” to describe the experience of it. And that’s all I really want to say about that.
These states lie in the ordinary way … albeit in an infused setting rather than the acquired discussed so much in this thread. There is nothing we can do to produce this spiritual state for it is a pure gift should God desire to give it. And an individual given such a gift should not consider themselves more holy or special than those who don’t. Further, we should not seek it … but simply be thankful if it’s given. It is not required in any way to be led to sanctity. In fact, most saints (simply my opinion) probably never taste this type of contemplation. Lastly, nothing that has been said in previous posts regarding emptying, voiding etc should be interpreted in anyway so as to lead an individual to the “spiritual sleep” St. Teresa described in such sublime detail. It can’t be done.
Sometimes, God willing, more may flow from this “spiritual sleep.” And herein lies the extraordinary way of contemplation (6th mansion). In this state of spiritual sleep, God will sometimes give imaginary visions or interior locutions. The depth of suspension of the prayer of union may deepen further to ecstasy or rapture. Again, these are not to be sought or desired. And they are not a sign of holiness … for they actually are a very profound type of spiritual imperfection that must be purged prior to transforming union (7th mansion).
Lastly, it is important to note the CCC says nothing about this type of phenomena … and very little about infused contemplation in general. It’s a sad mistake people make to limit their understanding of contemplation to just the infused … because there is so much more to it. That is why I’m thankful for the descriptions put forward in the CCC … it shows that contemplation is a path available to everyone and that one need not experience “phenomena”, sublime though it may be, in order to live a contemplative life.
Hope this helps,
Dave
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cjforJesus
Guest
I thought you said infused prayer or contemplation is rare?A few thoughts on “altered states” and hoping we don’t go down a rabbit hole from which we don’t return …
One of the characteristics of the infused states of prayer described by St. Teresa is the temporary suspension of the faculties … our thinking and reasoning abilities. The experience of this is slight in the prayer of quiet (4th mansion) and complete in the prayer of union (5th mansion). She uses the term “spiritual sleep” to describe the experience of it. And that’s all I really want to say about that.
These states lie in the ordinary way … albeit in an infused setting rather than the acquired discussed so much in this thread. There is nothing we can do to produce this spiritual state for it is a pure gift should God desire to give it. And an individual given such a gift should not consider themselves more holy or special than those who don’t. Further, we should not seek it … but simply be thankful if it’s given. It is not required in any way to be led to sanctity. In fact, most saints (simply my opinion) probably never taste this type of contemplation. Lastly, nothing that has been said in previous posts regarding emptying, voiding etc should be interpreted in anyway so as to lead an individual to the “spiritual sleep” St. Teresa described in such sublime detail. It can’t be done.
Sometimes, God willing, more may flow from this “spiritual sleep.” And herein lies the extraordinary way of contemplation (6th mansion). In this state of spiritual sleep, God will sometimes give imaginary visions or interior locutions. The depth of suspension of the prayer of union may deepen further to ecstasy or rapture. Again, these are not to be sought or desired. And they are not a sign of holiness … for they actually are a very profound type of spiritual imperfection that must be purged prior to transforming union (7th mansion).
Lastly, it is important to note the CCC says nothing about this type of phenomena … and very little about infused contemplation in general. It’s a sad mistake people make to limit their understanding of contemplation to just the infused … because there is so much more to it. That is why I’m thankful for the descriptions put forward in the CCC … it shows that contemplation is a path available to everyone and that one need not experience “phenomena”, sublime though it may be, in order to live a contemplative life.
Hope this helps,
Dave
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Michael_Mayo
Guest
Do you really think some prayer can lead to a psychotic beak?
I don’t think Jung spoke of Kundalini in terms of “possession”. Rather, he tried to give a modern psychological interpretation to the experience which in his view was natural for the human person but only brought to full fruition in a few.
Again, as someone already pointed out, “empty” mind does not mean vulnerable mind. In fact St John spoke of it as immunity to demonic attack since the primary way the demonic attacks us is through our thought, imagination and memory. If these are all resting and we are simply alert and listening nothing can harm us.
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simple_soul
Guest
I don’t know, maybe it’s just me, but I’m wondering if we are just putting way too much thought into it. Maybe it’s both happening simutainioisly. As we center ourselves on Jesus we void out or empty ourselves of all other distractions.
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cjforJesus
Guest
But the Church says that if you are not focused on Jesus it is no longer prayer. If you empty your mind there is no telling what type of spirit can manifest.We have intellect and will for a reason.
And Jung did say kundalini can cause psychosis.I am not sure of the link but I can locate it if you wish. But it can only happen in those who are not as “spiritually advanced” as he was
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Michael_Mayo
Guest
Don’t worry abou the link. I don’t think any of us really care about Kundalini.But the Church says that if you are not focused on Jesus it is no longer prayer. If you empty your mind there is no telling what type of spirit can manifest.We have intellect and will for a reason.
And Jung did say kundalini can cause psychosis.I am not sure of the link but I can locate it if you wish. But it can only happen in those who are not as “spiritually advanced” as he was
There is another thead on here just about St John. I cannot link to it on my little pad now. But he does indeed speak of this resting of the faculties as a safeguard against any and all evil spirits.
My own silent prayer is rather cyclical. Seconds of inner silence and stillness alternating with a thought or image that comes of itself. Then I refocus on Christ and let go of the thoughts and images again and just watch and listen with my entire being. I do not know of anywhere the church nor any great spiritual writer has warned of spirits flying in. If that were so it would also happen when we go to sleep, wouldn’t it?
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DBT
Guest
How would one go about quantifying that? These are God’s hidden and special friends … more often than not known to Him alone.
That having been said, I’ve seen spiritual writers state the great majority of faithful Catholics in the pews live their entire lives in the first 3 mansions of St. Teresa. And that’s all that’s needed for their salvation and even to begin leading saintly lives here on earth. The acquired contemplation discussed in this thread and shown in the CCC is certainly a path open to all such souls. Simple desire for it is where it begins.
St. Teresa herself says “many” of the souls I’m describing are then brought to the initial stages of infused contemplation … the prayer of quiet of the 4th mansions. Comparatively few of those, however, proceed from there – again, her words. The reason: such souls are often content to hold back a bit just for themselves … giving 95% to Christ as opposed to the 100% He seeks. Sinners, no — rather they are those devout souls unwilling to detach themselves from the little attachments and peccadillo’s they cling to that become ingrained imperfections. Infused contemplation purifies us of these imperfections through trials large and small … and many buckle under the suffering. So they stand pat rather than proceed further.
Dave
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cjforJesus
Guest
So I am correct in saying that infused contemplation or union is very rare.It is not something that can be achieved through any technique, Acquired contemplation is probably very common as it simply involves listening for God’s voice or promptings.How would one go about quantifying that? These are God’s hidden and special friends … more often than not known to Him alone.
That having been said, I’ve seen spiritual writers state the great majority of faithful Catholics in the pews live their entire lives in the first 3 mansions of St. Teresa. And that’s all that’s needed for their salvation and even to begin leading saintly lives here on earth. The acquired contemplation discussed in this thread and shown in the CCC is certainly a path open to all such souls. Simple desire for it is where it begins.
St. Teresa herself says “many” of the souls I’m describing are then brought to the initial stages of infused contemplation … the prayer of quiet of the 4th mansions. Comparatively few of those, however, proceed from there – again, her words. The reason: such souls are often content to hold back a bit just for themselves … giving 95% to Christ as opposed to the 100% He seeks. Sinners, no — rather they are those devout souls unwilling to detach themselves from the little attachments and peccadillo’s they cling to that become ingrained imperfections. Infused contemplation purifies us of these imperfections through trials large and small … and many buckle under the suffering. So they stand pat rather than proceed further.
Dave
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DBT
Guest
Honestly, I don’t know how common any of it is.
Problem 1: How many of our good and faithful parishioners even know about contemplation? I for one have never heard a single homily (outside of priests from religious orders) ever even talk about it.
Problem 2: When prayer is discussed (which isn’t often) it’s often in the service of devotionalism … the piling up of rosaries, chaplets, litanies, novena’s and the like. These are means to the end … not the end itself. How many of our devout even know that?
Every contemplative I’ve ever met … and there’s been quite a few … has been led to contemplation (whether acquired or infused) by seemingly random events or coincidences. That, of course, is the working of the Holy Spirit. One of the forms that takes, as St. Teresa in particular shows, is an individual being led to someone with actual contemplative experience who can help get them started and mentor them. I’ve seen that happen many times on these forums. Perhaps, God willing, maybe even on this very thread
Honestly, that’s the only reason I even come here and post in the first place … to share in some small way what I’ve been given.
Dave
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cjforJesus
Guest
So how do you know when someone is a true contemplative? Do they look or act different than the average person?Honestly, I don’t know how common any of it is.
Problem 1: How many of our good and faithful parishioners even know about contemplation? I for one have never heard a single homily (outside of priests from religious orders) ever even talk about it.
Problem 2: When prayer is discussed (which isn’t often) it’s often in the service of devotionalism … the piling up of rosaries, chaplets, litanies, novena’s and the like. These are means to the end … not the end itself. How many of our devout even know that?
Every contemplative I’ve ever met … and there’s been quite a few … has been led to contemplation (whether acquired or infused) by seemingly random events or coincidences. That, of course, is the working of the Holy Spirit. One of the forms that takes, as St. Teresa in particular shows, is an individual being led to someone with actual contemplative experience who can help get them started and mentor them. I’ve seen that happen many times on these forums. Perhaps, God willing, maybe even on this very thread
Honestly, that’s the only reason I even come here and post in the first place … to share in some small way what I’ve been given.
Dave
Does being a contemplative make a person better.I mean how is it manifested.Do they give more alms or visit the sick more often or volunteer more at church functions?Do they still pray vocally or is that something outgrown? Does it affect their job or will they accidentally go into trances sometimes?
Some priests that claim to be contemplatives and teach it digress from Catholic teaching.One famous priestwho has quite a few books on it endorses not only homosexuality but the sodomic acts.It seems he has skirted the issue with the Church though by presiding at a gay wedding he affirms the lifestyle. Do you think that person is really a contemplative or just being lead astray by false spirits?
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