The Cloud of Unknowing & Contemplative Prayer

[Robert_Sock]

You need to read more of his introduction…

The introduction just says that the book was not intended for everyone and that he does not wish the book to be for everybody (such as the unbeliever), but never does he suggest it’s only meant for those who are already advanced.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

From women of grace Catholic website

" The Cloud was meant for only those people who are very advanced along the spiritual path, which explains why it has become so distorted by New Agers who are trying to use “brute force” to make themselves into their own version of a contemplative."

I think the same spiritual caution was advised by St Louis Demontfort when beginners attempt to read His treatise and books about Mary.If one is not truly grounded in the Catholic faith they could be greatly confused and misinterpret what is written.

Women of Grace is a poor place to learn about The Cloud of Unknowing or contemplative prayer.

In other words, they’re wrong.

Jim

 

[JimR-OCDS]

The introduction just says that the book was not intended for everyone and that he does not wish the book to be for everybody (such as the unbeliever), but never does he suggest it’s only meant for those who are already advanced.

And as I was taught by Trappists and Carmelite Friars, the book was written when few knew or practice what we call contemplative prayer. Few people knew how to provide spiritual guidance to those who were brought to Contemplation.

Jim

 

[DBT]

Maybe it would be good to see what the author himself has to say. From the the much bandied about Intro:
Cloud-Foreward:

It does not matter whether this book belongs to you, whether you are keeping it for someone else, whether you are taking it to someone, or borrowing it: You are not to read it, write or speak of it, nor allow another to do so unless you really believe that he is a person committed to follow Christ perfectly. I have in mind a person who, over and above the good works of the active life, has resolved to follow Christ into the inmost depths of contemplation.

So The Cloud is not a manual for beginners (the “common” in the author’s actual terminology). It might be good, though, to define what that word actually means. To Bookcat’s point, a beginner is actually a person somewhat advanced in our modern day understanding of the word. Such an individual is likely well versed in the practice of meditation … not someone who has never even taken up the practice of prayer in the first place. To JimR’s point, there are exceptions to every rule and God will call whom He pleases to this contemplative practice.

As to discernment to if this teaching is appropriate for any given individual, I find the author’s supplemental work “Privy Counseling” most helpful for he clearly spells out the signs by which to proceed into contemplative practice:
Privy Counseling:

I have given you two kinds of evidence for discerning whether or not God is calling you spiritually to contemplation. One was interior and the other exterior. Neither one, by itself, is sufficient proof. They must occur together. The interior sign is that growing desire for contemplation constantly intruding in your daily devotions. The second sign is exterior and manifests itself as a certain joyful enthusiasm welling up within you whenever you hear or read about contemplation.

He continues …
Privy Counseling:

If it is not with you (the desire for contemplation) when you go to sleep and wake up and if it does not go before you constantly intruding in all you do, enkindling and capturing your desire, it is not God’s call to a more intense life of grace beyond what I call the common (beginner) door and entry for all Christians.

If such signs are present there is nothing to fear from this teaching nor should one refrain from sharing with other like-minded souls:
Privy Counseling:

Should anyone else share your interior dispositons and be likely to profit from this book also, all the better. I will be delighted. And so, to you and others like you I address the following pages.

Dave

 

[Bookcat]

The introduction just says that the book was not intended for everyone and that he does not wish the book to be for everybody (such as the unbeliever), but never does he suggest it’s only meant for those who are already advanced.

Must be the translation you have…says rather more than that.

 

[Michael_Mayo]

Yes and God knows it is not for beginners…

At what point is one no longer a beginner?

 

[cjforJesus]

At what point is one no longer a beginner?

The book is not part of the deposit of faith
The book was allegedly written for monastics
The author is unknown
Some claim this “cloud of unknowing” is similar to the the Buddhist concept of nothingness and therefore makes the idea of god more of an underlying pantheistic force.
The writing style is middle english , very poetic ,detailed, and flowery,like most of the literature from that period
It is not an instruction manual of any kind.
Anyone not sincerely grounded in the Catholic faith could become very confused by it.
A beginner would be considered someone probably not truly grounded in faith and open to false interpretations of this work.

 

[DBT]

cjforJesus:

A beginner would be considered someone probably not truly grounded in faith and open to false interpretations of this work.

This is a scholastic term that doesn’t mean what many are calling it. In mystical theology a beginner isn’t an unbeliever or even one who is just starting out. Rather, one ceases to be a “beginner” and enters the way of the “proficient” when meditation is no longer profitable to the individual. A beginner is a sincere, dedicated, virtuous and faithful Catholic … one devoted to prayer but who’s way of prayer is being changed through the working of the Lord. Carmelite teaching attests to this … as does the author of The Cloud in the opening chapters of his work.

cjforJesus:

It is not an instruction manual of any kind.

I would disagree with that. The teaching of The Cloud is very much an instruction manual … but one specifically meant for individuals at a particular point in the spiritual journey. It is very much in-tune with what St. John of the Cross teaches on the purification of memory in Book 3, chapters 1-15 of The Ascent of Mount Carmel. Both works describe aspects of acquired contemplation methods … techniques we can and should employ to foster contemplative growth because they are within our means to do so. This is what St. John calls the “active” night … not to be confused with the “passive” night associated with infused contemplation.

So the Cloud is not an esoteric teaching by any means … rather, it is immensely practical. Anyone drawn to pray without ceasing instinctively knows the importance of managing distractions and re-focusing mind and heart back to Christ whenever our attention strays. The goal: to foster a single-minded devotion to prayer no matter what we might be doing. The method: the use of a simple, on-going, never ceasing aspiration. More simple than Cassian … mono-syllabic prayer.

That, in a nutshell, is what the teaching of The Cloud shows us how to do.

Dave

 

[cjforJesus]

This is a scholastic term that doesn’t mean what many are calling it. In mystical theology a beginner isn’t an unbeliever or even one who is just starting out. Rather, one ceases to be a “beginner” and enters the way of the “proficient” when meditation is no longer profitable to the individual. A beginner is a sincere, dedicated, virtuous and faithful Catholic … one devoted to prayer but who’s way of prayer is being changed through the working of the Lord. Carmelite teaching attests to this … as does the author of The Cloud in the opening chapters of his work.

I would disagree with that. The teaching of The Cloud is very much an instruction manual … but one specifically meant for individuals at a particular point in the spiritual journey. It is very much in-tune with what St. John of the Cross teaches on the purification of memory in Book 3, chapters 1-15 of The Ascent of Mount Carmel. Both works describe aspects of acquired contemplation methods … techniques we can and should employ to foster contemplative growth because they are within our means to do so. This is what St. John calls the “active” night … not to be confused with the “passive” night associated with infused contemplation.

So the Cloud is not an esoteric teaching by any means … rather, it is immensely practical. Anyone drawn to pray without ceasing instinctively knows the importance of managing distractions and re-focusing mind and heart back to Christ whenever our attention strays. The goal: to foster a single-minded devotion to prayer no matter what we might be doing. The method: the use of a simple, on-going, never ceasing aspiration. More simple than Cassian … mono-syllabic prayer.

That, in a nutshell, is what the teaching of The Cloud shows us how to do.

Dave

This piece of literature is not infallible and is NOT part of the deposit of faith.It can show you nothing more than what Holy Mother Church can. Individuals who are not grounded in faith would be terribly confused.Also it is written in a style that appeals to the highly educated and not the average Christian.

And tell the Mo DOT that it is absurd to abruptly shut down the I 55 I 44 interchange without notifying travelers in advance. There could have been a serious accident with traffic traveling that quickly to come to a stop. I should have taken the 270 bypass.

 

[DBT]

This piece of literature is not infallible and is NOT part of the deposit of faith.It can show you nothing more than what Holy Mother Church can.

True enough.

Individuals who are not grounded in faith would be terribly confused.Also it is written in a style that appeals to the highly educated and not the average Christian.

Again, the author himself would disagree In his own words:
Privy Counseling:

It is not hard to master this way of thinking (simplified prayer). I am certain that even the most uneducated man or woman, accustomed to a very primitive type of life can easily learn it. Sometimes I smile to myself, though not without a touch of sadness, and marvel at those who claim that I write to you and others a complicated, difficult, lofty and strange doctrine, intelligible to only a few clever and highly trained minds.

He continues …
Privy Counseling:

It is a great pity and a sad commentary on the state of those supposedly committed to God that (they can not recognize) a practice so simple that even the most uneducated peasant may easily find in it a way to real union with God in the sweet simplicity of perfect love. Unfortunately, these sophisticated people are no more capable of understanding this truth in sincerity of heart than a child at his ABCs is able to understand the intricacies of erudite theology. Yet, in their blindess, they insist on calling such a simple exercise deep and subtle; whearas if they examined it rationally, they would discover it to be as clear and plain as the lesson of a beginner.

Ouch, indeed.

Dave

 

[cjforJesus]

True enough.

Again, the author himself would disagree In his own words:

He continues …

Ouch, indeed.

Dave

Dave,the author is unknown,and there are many who are rightly concerned that what he may be teaching is actually Buddhist meditation.
It is NOT for those who are not truly solid in their faith.

Contemplation is not learned as anyone who has studied St Teresa of Avila knows it took her 30 years of spiritual growth to arrive at this level of prayer! It is a gift from God not something that can be learned by the reading of “The Cloud of Unknowing”

Spiritual growth is a lifelong process.

 

[DBT]

Contemplation is not learned as anyone who has studied St Teresa of Avila knows it took her 30 years of spiritual growth to arrive at this level of prayer! It is a gift from God not something that can be learned by the reading of “The Cloud of Unknowing”

Well I’m a Carmelite - a formation director of a large community at that - and this statement just isn’t true. There are aspects of contemplation that very much can be learned. That’s the whole point of St. John’s active nights. And, of course, there are aspects that can’t be learned as they are the gift of God you rightly describe. It is a mistake, though, to state all contemplation is infused … for it is not.

The teaching of The Cloud is an acquired contemplation method. Carmelite scholars (ie. Susan Muto, Fr. Dubay) place these type of methods - which, by the way, include the similar method of the Practice of the Presence of God of Brother Lawrence - in the 3rd mansion of St. Teresa’s 7-fold schema. The progression: vocal prayer (mansion 1), meditation (mansion 2), simplified prayer (mansion 3) and infused prayer (mansion 4-7).

Nothing to be fearful of at all.

Dave

 

[cjforJesus]

Well I’m a Carmelite - a formation director of a large community at that - and this statement just isn’t true. There are aspects of contemplation that very much can be learned. That is the whole point of St. John’s active nights. And, of course, there are aspects that can’t be learned as they are the gift of God you rightly describe. It is a mistake, though, to state all contemplation is infused … for it is not.

The teaching of The Cloud is an acquired contemplation method. Carmelite scholars (ie. Susan Muto, Fr. Dubay) place these type of methods - which, by the way, include the similar method of the Practice of the Presence of God of Brother Lawrence - in the 3rd mansion of St. Teresa’s 7-fold schema. The progression: vocal prayer (mansion 1), meditation (mansion 2), simplified prayer (mansion 3) and infused prayer (mansion 4-7).

Nothing to be fearful of at all.

Dave

Fearful? nope.Just very cautious. None of these texts are necessary for salvation.Dave. All we need to know for salvation has been revealed already.

Incidentally one must read “The Way of Perfection” to truly understand the concept of purgation and how one even begins the spiritual journey. One cannot even enter the mansion without being purged of ALL earthly desires.I believe St Teresa even goes as far as having her nuns forgo friendships among themselves and to limit family contact.

 

[DBT]

Incidentally one must read “The Way of Perfection” to truly understand the concept of purgation and how one even begins the spiritual journey. One cannot even enter the mansion without being purged of ALL earthly desires.I believe St Teresa even goes as far as having her nuns forgo friendships among themselves and to limit family contact.

Which is why this is one of the principal works used by the entire Carmelite order to teach people how to become contemplatives.

All the early chapters on humility, self-denial and the practice of virtue build to a crescendo in chapters 28-31 where she introduces her method of acquired contemplation - a method not unlike that of The Cloud. It is a method on how to “enter within” … a practice she encourages readers to do “often.” Keep in mind these chapters relate to John’s active nights in The Ascent and mansion 3 from her Interior Castle. These are the “beginners” being formed into the “proficients” described in earlier posts. Nothing about the contemplative teaching in these chapters can be considered infused … it is entirely within our means and ability to do. And the “doing” begins with the simple desire for it … fed and nurtured, of course, by the diligent practice of virtue you describe.

And that’s why the fearful rarely become contemplatives. Their very fear squelches desire and ties the hands of God.

Dave

 

[cjforJesus]

Which is why this is one of the principal works used by the entire Carmelite order to teach people how to become contemplatives.

All the early chapters on humility, self-denial and the practice of virtue build to a crescendo in chapters 28-31 where she introduces her method of acquired contemplation - a method not unlike that of The Cloud. It is a method on how to “enter within” … a practice she encourages readers to do “often.” Keep in mind these chapters relate to John’s active nights in The Ascent and mansion 3 from her Interior Castle. These are the “beginners” being formed into the “proficients” described in earlier posts. Nothing about the contemplative teaching in these chapters can be considered infused … it is entirely within our means and ability to do. And the “doing” begins with the simple desire for it … fed and nurtured, of course, by the diligent practice of virtue you describe.

And that’s why the fearful rarely become contemplatives. Their very fear squelches desire and ties the hands of God.

Dave

Dave,I have had dozens of Carmelite frairs as confessors and not one has advised me to pursue any type of contemplative prayer. I am asked about my prayer life from time to time and most seem to think it is productive. As I said all we need to know for salvation has been revealed.There are no secrets/ LOve God and love your neighbor.very simple. Also remember the sacraments and at least monthly confession.

Do you also realize that most of these texts were written in the middles ages when very few people could even read? They were written for monastics and people who had renounced worldly pleasures.

I would love to see a modern “contemplative” who has given up TV, the internet,their smart phone,and video games.

True contemplation is nothing to be feared.It is a gift from God. I only know one humble person who ever experienced it.

And that’s why the fearful rarely become contemplatives. Their very fear squelches desire and ties the hands of God. no,very few individuals actually reach any stage of contemplation because they are unable to purge themselves of worldly pleasures.It is necessary to renounce ALL worldly pleasure to enter the mansion. Most people are very reluctant to sell all they have and follow Jesus.

 

[Michael_Mayo]

The book is not part of the deposit of faith
The book was allegedly written for monastics
The author is unknown
Some claim this “cloud of unknowing” is similar to the the Buddhist concept of nothingness and therefore makes the idea of god more of an underlying pantheistic force.
The writing style is middle english , very poetic ,detailed, and flowery,like most of the literature from that period
It is not an instruction manual of any kind.
Anyone not sincerely grounded in the Catholic faith could become very confused by it.
A beginner would be considered someone probably not truly grounded in faith and open to false interpretations of this work.

At what point is one “truly grounded in faith”?

What does that look like? What are the criteria?

 

[DBT]

CJ -
I feel our conversation is digressing from the theme of the thread so I will take my leave of it. You mention you’ve only met or known one true contemplative. Well I have the good fortune of intimately knowing and working with 50 delightful contemplative souls in my own community alone … and hundreds others throughout the broader order. Friars, nuns and seculars from all walks of life all at varying stages of the spiritual journey. It is not our job to “push” any particular way of prayer but simply to provide the information and spiritual framework necessary to members to best allow the Holy Spirit to do the work He wants to do.

All I can say is the picture you paint of Carmelite spirituality would be unrecognizable to those who actually live it. It is not nearly as harsh, burdensome or esoteric as you make it out to be. I have a vocational obligation by way of my Promises, by the way, to point that out.

Blessings and peace to you,
Dave

 

[Michael_Mayo]

.There are no secrets/ LOve God and love your neighbor.very simple. Also remember the sacraments and at least monthly confession.

monastics and people who had renounced worldly pleasures.

I would love to see a modern “contemplative” who has given up TV, the internet,their smart phone,and video games.

And that’s why the fearful rarely become contemplatives. Their very fear squelches desire and ties the hands of God. no,very few individuals actually reach any stage of contemplation because they are unable to purge themselves of worldly pleasures.It is necessary to renounce ALL worldly pleasure to enter the mansion.

Most people are very reluctant to sell all they have and follow Jesus.

far as having her nuns forgo friendships among themselves and to limit family contact.

Sorry I should have read more of your posts.

If contemplation is a gift why is it then necessary to renounce ALL worldly pleasure including friendships and family contact? Give up TV, the internet, and smart phone?

You make it sound as though it can and must be earned.

 

[Robert_Sock]

Maybe it would be good to see what the author himself has to say. From the the much bandied about Intro:

So The Cloud is not a manual for beginners (the “common” in the author’s actual terminology). It might be good, though, to define what that word actually means. To Bookcat’s point, a beginner is actually a person somewhat advanced in our modern day understanding of the word. Such an individual is likely well versed in the practice of meditation … not someone who has never even taken up the practice of prayer in the first place. To JimR’s point, there are exceptions to every rule and God will call whom He pleases to this contemplative practice.

As to discernment to if this teaching is appropriate for any given individual, I find the author’s supplemental work “Privy Counseling” most helpful for he clearly spells out the signs by which to proceed into contemplative practice:

He continues …

If such signs are present there is nothing to fear from this teaching nor should one refrain from sharing with other like-minded souls:

Dave

Nowhere in your quote does it say that the book is geared towards the advanced, but instead it focuses only on one’s desire to be united to God.

 

[DBT]

Nowhere in your quote does it say that the book is geared towards the advanced, but instead it focuses only on one’s desire to be united to God.

Hello Robert -

There seems to be confusion on this thread as to what spiritual writers mean by the word “beginner.” The author of The Cloud clearly shows - as do the Carmelites - that individuals should practice meditation as long as it is profitable to do so. That, in a nutshell, is what they mean by beginner … someone who meditates.

At a certain point in time, God willing, meditation may no longer be fruitful. Again, the author of The Cloud and Carmelites like John and Teresa identify the signs by which to discern if this is actually the case. If so, one is counseled to place less reliance on meditation for more simplified ways of prayer … such as the method of The Cloud, the Practice of the Presence of God of Br. Lawrence, the recollection of Teresa or loving attentiveness of John to name a few.

As I know you know there is nothing more simple than these ways of prayer … for those called to do it.

But, generally speaking, souls are led to these simplified ways of prayer through discursive methods (meditation). That’s the teaching. But, of course, there are exceptions to every rule.

Hope this helps,
Dave