The Cloud of Unknowing & Contemplative Prayer

[Bookcat]

1. The seeking of God through prayer has to be preceded and accompanied by an ascetical struggle and a purification from one’s own sins and errors, since Jesus has said that only “the pure of heart shall see God” (Mt 5:8). The Gospel aims above all at a moral purification from the lack of truth and love and, on a deeper level, from all the selfish instincts which impede man from recognizing and accepting the Will of God in its purity. The passions are not negative in themselves (as the Stoics and Neoplatonists thought), but their tendency is to selfishness. It is from this that the Christian has to free himself in order to arrive at that state of positive freedom which in classical Christian times was called “apatheia,” in the Middle Ages “Impassibilitas” and in the Ignatian Spiritual Exercises "indiferencia."19 This is impossible without a radical self-denial, as can also be seen in St. Paul who openly uses the word “mortification” (of sinful tendencies).20 Only this self-denial renders man free to carry out the will of God and to share in the freedom of the Holy Spirit.
2. Therefore, one has to interpret correctly the teaching of those masters who recommend “emptying” the spirit of all sensible representations and of every concept, while remaining lovingly attentive to God. In this way, the person praying creates an empty space which can then be filled by the richness of God. However, the emptiness which God requires is that of the renunciation of personal selfishness, not necessarily that of the renunciation of those created things which he has given us and among which he has placed us. There is no doubt that in prayer one should concentrate entirely on God and as far as possible exclude the things of this world which bind us to our selfishness. On this topic St. Augustine is an excellent teacher: if you want to find God, he says, abandon the exterior world and re-enter into yourself. However, he continues, do not remain in yourself, but go beyond yourself because you are not God: He is deeper and greater than you. "I look for his substance in my soul and I do not find it; I have however meditated on the search for God and, reaching out to him, through created things, I have sought to know ‘the invisible perfections of God’ (Rom 1:20)."21 “To remain in oneself”: this is the real danger. The great Doctor of the Church recommends concentrating on oneself, but also transcending the self which is not God, but only a creature. God is "deeper than my inmost being and higher than my greatest height."22 In fact God is in us and with us, but he transcends us in his mystery.23

CONGREGATION FOR THE DOCTRINE OF THE FAITH

LETTER TO THE BISHOPS OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH
ON SOME ASPECTS OF CHRISTIAN MEDITATION

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_19891015_meditazione-cristiana_en.html

 

[JimR-OCDS]

cjforJesus

So how do you know when someone is a true contemplative?

You might or might not know. Many people misunderstand what holiness involves. They look for bird bath St Anthony statue type behaviors rather than a fully human fully alive person.

Do they look or act different than the average person?

Depends on one’s perspective. See above.

Some priests that claim to be contemplatives and teach it digress from Catholic teaching.One famous priestwho has quite a few books on it endorses not only homosexuality but the sodomic acts.It seems he has skirted the issue with the Church though by presiding at a gay wedding he affirms the lifestyle. Do you think that person is really a contemplative or just being lead astray by false spirits?

I don’t know and I’m not really focused on such things.

Such concerns are more of a distraction in the spiritual life. I’m better to stay focused on my own relationship with Jesus Christ.

If a person has been given the grace of contemplation, it came from Jesus Christ and it’s not up to me to say they did not receive such grace. It’s between them and Christ.

If a person says God revealed Himself to them, who am I to say He didn’t ?

My guess is the priest you have in mind I know of and I’m also aware of the misinformation about him.

Jim

 

[cjforJesus]

1. The seeking of God through prayer has to be preceded and accompanied by an ascetical struggle and a purification from one’s own sins and errors, since Jesus has said that only “the pure of heart shall see God” (Mt 5:8). The Gospel aims above all at a moral purification from the lack of truth and love and, on a deeper level, from all the selfish instincts which impede man from recognizing and accepting the Will of God in its purity. The passions are not negative in themselves (as the Stoics and Neoplatonists thought), but their tendency is to selfishness. It is from this that the Christian has to free himself in order to arrive at that state of positive freedom which in classical Christian times was called “apatheia,” in the Middle Ages “Impassibilitas” and in the Ignatian Spiritual Exercises "indiferencia."19 This is impossible without a radical self-denial, as can also be seen in St. Paul who openly uses the word “mortification” (of sinful tendencies).20 Only this self-denial renders man free to carry out the will of God and to share in the freedom of the Holy Spirit.
2. Therefore, one has to interpret correctly the teaching of those masters who recommend “emptying” the spirit of all sensible representations and of every concept, while remaining lovingly attentive to God. In this way, the person praying creates an empty space which can then be filled by the richness of God. However, the emptiness which God requires is that of the renunciation of personal selfishness, not necessarily that of the renunciation of those created things which he has given us and among which he has placed us. There is no doubt that in prayer one should concentrate entirely on God and as far as possible exclude the things of this world which bind us to our selfishness. On this topic St. Augustine is an excellent teacher: if you want to find God, he says, abandon the exterior world and re-enter into yourself. However, he continues, do not remain in yourself, but go beyond yourself because you are not God: He is deeper and greater than you. "I look for his substance in my soul and I do not find it; I have however meditated on the search for God and, reaching out to him, through created things, I have sought to know ‘the invisible perfections of God’ (Rom 1:20)."21 “To remain in oneself”: this is the real danger. The great Doctor of the Church recommends concentrating on oneself, but also transcending the self which is not God, but only a creature. God is "deeper than my inmost being and higher than my greatest height."22 In fact God is in us and with us, but he transcends us in his mystery.23

CONGREGATION FOR THE DOCTRINE OF THE FAITH

LETTER TO THE BISHOPS OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH
ON SOME ASPECTS OF CHRISTIAN MEDITATION

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_19891015_meditazione-cristiana_en.html

So the emptiness is not nothingness but a renunciation of sin and selfishness .He must increase and I must decrease.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

From;

CONGREGATION FOR THE DOCTRINE OF THE FAITH

LETTER TO THE BISHOPS OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH
ON SOME ASPECTS OF CHRISTIAN MEDITATION*

October 15, 1989

1. The majority of the great religions which have sought union with God in prayer have also pointed out ways to achieve it. Just as "the Catholic Church rejects nothing of what is true and holy in these religions,"18 neither should these ways be rejected out of hand simply because they are not Christian.

That being said, nothing we’re talking about in this thread, is not from the Catholic Church

Jim

 

[cjforJesus]

cjforJesus

You might or might not know. Many people misunderstand what holiness involves. They look for bird bath St Anthony statue type behaviors rather than a fully human fully alive person.

Depends on one’s perspective. See above.

But this priest did openly preside at a gay wedding which makes me very suspicious of his writings.One cannot celebrate sin.

I don’t know and I’m not really focused on such things.

Such concerns are more of a distraction in the spiritual life. I’m better to stay focused on my own relationship with Jesus Christ.

If a person has been given the grace of contemplation, it came from Jesus Christ and it’s not up to me to say they did not receive such grace. It’s between them and Christ.

If a person says God revealed Himself to them, who am I to say He didn’t ?

My guess is the priest you have in mind I know of and I’m also aware of the misinformation about him.

Jim

 

[cjforJesus]

cjforJesus

You might or might not know. Many people misunderstand what holiness involves. They look for bird bath St Anthony statue type behaviors rather than a fully human fully alive person.

Depends on one’s perspective. See above.

Yet this man openly presided at a gay wedding affirming the disorder. How can one claim to be a contemplative who has intimate union with God support sodomy? To me this is one of the biggest contradictions I have seen in researching this.

I don’t know and I’m not really focused on such things.

Such concerns are more of a distraction in the spiritual life. I’m better to stay focused on my own relationship with Jesus Christ.

If a person has been given the grace of contemplation, it came from Jesus Christ and it’s not up to me to say they did not receive such grace. It’s between them and Christ.

If a person says God revealed Himself to them, who am I to say He didn’t ?

My guess is the priest you have in mind I know of and I’m also aware of the misinformation about him.

Jim

Yet this man openly presided at a gay wedding affirming the disorder. How can one claim to be a contemplative who has intimate union with God and support sodomy? To me this is one of the biggest contradictions I have seen in researching this.

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

define proficient in a religious context please.

The experiencing of new spiritual heights.

experience? Like visions and raptures?

Have you read the CCC passages (2700-2724) I have linked a few times including now? You say you believe the CCC so you should have no argument against it, right? You might enjoy the following, if you can allow yourself to imagine actually coming into Divine Union with Jesus – who knows where that may lead?

A few excerpts that may address your question:

2711 Entering into contemplative prayer is like entering into the Eucharistic liturgy: we “gather up” the heart, recollect our whole being under the prompting of the Holy Spirit, abide in the dwelling place of the Lord which we are, awaken our faith in order to enter into the presence of him who awaits us. We let our masks fall and turn our hearts back to the Lord who loves us, so as to hand ourselves over to him as an offering to be purified and transformed.

2712 Contemplative prayer is the prayer of the child of God, of the forgiven sinner who agrees to welcome the love by which he is loved and who wants to respond to it by loving even more.8 But he knows that the love he is returning is poured out by the Spirit in his heart, for everything is grace from God. Contemplative prayer is the poor and humble surrender to the loving will of the Father in ever deeper union with his beloved Son.

2713 Contemplative prayer is the simplest expression of the mystery of prayer. It is a gift, a grace; it can be accepted only in humility and poverty. Contemplative prayer is a covenant relationship established by God within our hearts.9 Contemplative prayer is a communion in which the Holy Trinity conforms man, the image of God, "to his likeness."

The “humility and poverty” is one of the catches. If you try to explain or figure it out, you lose the whole point because in contemplative prayer, we open our minds and hearts (the void that frightens those who place their faith in worldly attachments – thus the poverty) rather than try to “figure God out.”

2724 Contemplative prayer is the simple expression of the mystery of prayer. It is a gaze of faith fixed on Jesus, an attentiveness to the Word of God, a silent love. It achieves real union with the prayer of Christ to the extent that it makes us share in his mystery.

There. That’s pretty much it… union with God is the whole point in even having a religion, and here the CCC says this form of prayer brings us to that.

What more evidence do you need? If you are dead set against this, than just admit it rather than repeating lies from hell that have infiltrated the Church in an attempt to divide us. You may not wish to advance to this form of prayer, and maybe union with Jesus is not something you seek. But if it isn’t, then you should at least quit doing the work of those who wish to prevent Catholics from knowing about this valuable resource. Who would it be, that is keeping you from Jesus? Who would it be, that doesn’t want you to believe the teachings of the Church, in favor of vague innuendos and an attitude of avoidance at all costs?

Come on in; the water really is wonderful! Do you really fear doing what the Church says and perhaps finding a greater sense (and reality) of union with Jesus because you believe those who have lied to you? Or maybe are you afraid of what you are going to tell them, if they find out that you “caved in” and bought into the truth? Do not fear telling the truth to people who would lie to divide the Body of Christ.

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

Yet this man openly presided at a gay wedding affirming the disorder. How can one claim to be a contemplative who has intimate union with God and support sodomy? To me this is one of the biggest contradictions I have seen in researching this.

What “research” have you done? I know exactly about whom you speak, because he is a Franciscan and so am I, as inquirer. What exactly do you know about Richard Rohr, other than what others have told you? How many minutes have you spent watching his videos, or how many books of his authorship have you read?

“Hearsay” is a great tool of the ignorant and the deceitful. If you were asked to explain your ideas about contemplative prayer and/or the Cloud, would you allow me to speak as your proxy? As someone who has read your posts and then paints a picture? Would I paint you as a person who is in touch with the truth? What if I didn’t – would you like to be judged by someone whose only knowledge of you is what I’ve told them and all they’ve seen of your writings are the snippets I give them? What if I blogged about it, and pretty soon it is “common knowledge” that you think – well, what I told everybody you think.

Similarly, do you really expect those who hate Rohr to actually examine themselves against the challenges Rohr levels against them? Or will they defend themselves? Most seem to go with the latter, I’d guess. Gossip sells, and doesn’t cost any self-denial or actual transformation, nor call for any. Just malign whichever religious guys you hear are the Bad Ones, and listen to those who say they Know Better, in the authority that “somebody told you” this or that. Blog about it, tweet and retweet, post, copy and paste, and soon the gossip is spread among all the nations – to nourish the weeds among the seeds.

Academics don’t like Rohr because he calls them to “be transformed” as Jesus told us to be, rather than “be informed” which St. Paul tells us is worth exactly nothing without love. And love is everything without it. So knowledge is nothing. It is only a pointer to God, unless we think we will use it to construct our own Towers of Babel and somehow if we stick close to the construct we design, we hope somehow that will get us to heaven.

It’s time we destroyed these Towers of Babel, which I’m going to just venture a guess came into vogue during the Reformation. Maybe it was God’s diversity plan, whereby He was trying to break the hold of the Strong Man who had the Church in its grip and did things that frankly Luther was right to call them on.

All of this can be advanced with an attitude toward humility, if we quit pretending that all we need to know about God, is what we know about God. St. Paul said if a man thinks he knows something, than he doesn’t know as he ought.

But the academics who claim to Know Better than the church, or a religious man about whom the last few popes have been made aware and chose not to ask him to tone down … these are the people who will scatter and destroy the flock, even in their misguided attempts to do good. Because they are acting out of worldly wisdom and formulas, which denies the mystery of the cross.

I urge you to quit listening to pompous academics who would have you feel inferior to them so that you will not question them even though they may be spreading lies from hell. They use you as a tool to further their agenda against any forces who challenge their authority. I know about academics; I’ve worked with some of the world’s biggest egos and frankly my own is one of them as far as I can tell.

(continued)

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

(continued)

Let’s go back to St. Paul. Remember faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God – not the word of academics who have a personal interest in selling their intellectual wares. We want to buy this brand of spirituality but not that one. And agree with this saint, pope, scripture passage, or CCC and deny or actively ignore the rest. And yeah if you go to Mass with this priest and take communion you may go to hell – the funniest part is they don’t even realize they are playing on fears because they have themselves convinced their fears are real. If, God forbid, they were ever tested to where they were plunged into the Dark Night, they may learn something. St. Paul knows all about that, because it happened to him. It could happen to you, or me, or anyone else who seeks with an open mind and open heart. Or someone who doesn’t – maybe only rarely but all is possible with God. Start setting boundaries on just how God is and is not allowed to communicate with you, then you will have reduced your receptivity to God, and kept your bushel over your light.

Jesus came to free us. Don’t let the Loud Ones scare you from walking away from those chains. You wouldn’t even look at a book I gave you with a nihil obstat and imprimatur that is being used to TEACH PRIESTS in the seminary – I’ll even disclose which one; Kenrick-Glennon where I got to see the Most Reverend Archbishop Carlton (of St. Louis) last month as he gave my son his diploma in the seminary chapel. I know they used that book for first year prayer class, because I bought it for him.

You are clinging to the Catholic label, and to the particular version of it that you have been sold by the ignorant posing as wise. Just quit… Please. For your own good. Or maybe I’m totally wrong and you should ignore me.

Am I “name dropping” by mentioning my son and the archbishop? Yes. If you are impressed by credentials, than know that I “hang around” with people that have credentials. Whatever it may take for you to at least sincerely consider that I may be right about any of all of this…

1 Cor 1
Groups and Slogans. 10 I urge you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree in what you say, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and in the same purpose. 11 For it has been reported to me about you, my brothers, by Chloe’s people, that there are rivalries among you. 12 I mean that each of you is saying, “I belong to Paul,” or “I belong to Apollos,” or “I belong to Cephas,” or “I belong to Christ.” 13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul? 14 I give thanks [to God] that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15 so that no one can say you were baptized in my name. 16 (I baptized the household of Stephanas also; beyond that I do not know whether I baptized anyone else.) 17 For Christ did not send me to baptize but to preach the gospel, and not with the wisdom of human eloquence, so that the cross of Christ might not be emptied of its meaning.

Paradox of the Cross. 18 The message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written:

“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise,
and the learning of the learned I will set aside.”

20 Where is the wise one? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made the wisdom of the world foolish? 21 For since in the wisdom of God the world did not come to know God through wisdom, it was the will of God through the foolishness of the proclamation to save those who have faith. 22 For Jews demand signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23 but we proclaim Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24 but to those who are called, Jews and Greeks alike, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength.​

I don’t really expect you to believe me or change your mind. Really I’m just practicing documenting these things. It would be nice for my ego if you ended up gaining from what I said, but my job is to plant seeds not grow them. Please don’t feel any pressure to either resist my attempts to “fix” you or to go along with them, unless the Lord calls you to them and you can see in your heart AND your mind that it’s the truth – truth too obvious to even explain.

It’s only my job to speak the truth as I see it, and let the Holy Spirit take it from there. :takeoff:

One last thing – I haven’t changed my opinion about you and the Cloud. I still think you should stay away from it, as you are inclined to do. God may have things planned for you that are even Far Greater! :getholy:

MS

 

[cjforJesus]

(continued)

Let’s go back to St. Paul. Remember faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God – not the word of academics who have a personal interest in selling their intellectual wares. We want to buy this brand of spirituality but not that one. And agree with this saint, pope, scripture passage, or CCC and deny or actively ignore the rest. And yeah if you go to Mass with this priest and take communion you may go to hell – the funniest part is they don’t even realize they are playing on fears because they have themselves convinced their fears are real. If, God forbid, they were ever tested to where they were plunged into the Dark Night, they may learn something. St. Paul knows all about that, because it happened to him. It could happen to you, or me, or anyone else who seeks with an open mind and open heart. Or someone who doesn’t – maybe only rarely but all is possible with God. Start setting boundaries on just how God is and is not allowed to communicate with you, then you will have reduced your receptivity to God, and kept your bushel over your light.

Jesus came to free us. Don’t let the Loud Ones scare you from walking away from those chains. You wouldn’t even look at a book I gave you with a nihil obstat and imprimatur that is being used to TEACH PRIESTS in the seminary – I’ll even disclose which one; Kenrick-Glennon where I got to see the Most Reverend Archbishop Carlton (of St. Louis) last month as he gave my son his diploma in the seminary chapel. I know they used that book for first year prayer class, because I bought it for him.

You are clinging to the Catholic label, and to the particular version of it that you have been sold by the ignorant posing as wise. Just quit… Please. For your own good. Or maybe I’m totally wrong and you should ignore me.

Am I “name dropping” by mentioning my son and the archbishop? Yes. If you are impressed by credentials, than know that I “hang around” with people that have credentials. Whatever it may take for you to at least sincerely consider that I may be right about any of all of this…

1 Cor 1
Groups and Slogans. 10 I urge you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree in what you say, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and in the same purpose. 11 For it has been reported to me about you, my brothers, by Chloe’s people, that there are rivalries among you. 12 I mean that each of you is saying, “I belong to Paul,” or “I belong to Apollos,” or “I belong to Cephas,” or “I belong to Christ.” 13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul? 14 I give thanks [to God] that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15 so that no one can say you were baptized in my name. 16 (I baptized the household of Stephanas also; beyond that I do not know whether I baptized anyone else.) 17 For Christ did not send me to baptize but to preach the gospel, and not with the wisdom of human eloquence, so that the cross of Christ might not be emptied of its meaning.

Paradox of the Cross. 18 The message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written:

“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise,
and the learning of the learned I will set aside.”

20 Where is the wise one? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made the wisdom of the world foolish? 21 For since in the wisdom of God the world did not come to know God through wisdom, it was the will of God through the foolishness of the proclamation to save those who have faith. 22 For Jews demand signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23 but we proclaim Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24 but to those who are called, Jews and Greeks alike, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength.​

I don’t really expect you to believe me or change your mind. Really I’m just practicing documenting these things. It would be nice for my ego if you ended up gaining from what I said, but my job is to plant seeds not grow them. Please don’t feel any pressure to either resist my attempts to “fix” you or to go along with them, unless the Lord calls you to them and you can see in your heart AND your mind that it’s the truth – truth too obvious to even explain.

It’s only my job to speak the truth as I see it, and let the Holy Spirit take it from there. :takeoff:

One last thing – I haven’t changed my opinion about you and the Cloud. I still think you should stay away from it, as you are inclined to do. God may have things planned for you that are even Far Greater! :getholy:

MS

You are saying that a specific form of prayer will unite you to Jesus Christ.I thought that is what the Eucharist is, the Risen Christ.It unites us to Him and the whole body.

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

You are saying that a specific form of prayer will unite you to Jesus Christ.I thought that is what the Eucharist is, the Risen Christ.It unites us to Him and the whole body.

Don’t try to force it into a “form” so the liar can use the “prayer isn’t a form” objection and/or pit it against the Eucharist. Again, the Rosary is a very precisely defined “prayer form” and you believe that will get you closer to God or why do you do it – “sitting in silence” is about as open-ended as they get. You have been told to denigrate and fear this, by saying it shares a feature epitomized by something you cling to! Do you not see how hilarious that is?

This isn’t to put you down. I’ve been through much the same things because I grew up entirely an academic with no clue of mysticism or frankly social interaction.

The claim that this type prayer brings us to unity in Christ, significantly more so than vocal or meditation, are from the CCC, which you said you believe. And I am calling your bluff.

So the CCC is saying that this type of prayer will lead to unity with Jesus. If you don’t agree with that, then you may quit saying that you conform your beliefs to the CCC. Because it will be apparent that you wear the “I go by the CCC” but refuse to accept what it stands for. You wear it as a badge and as a defensive tactic against the potential for truth to reach you. When academics are questioned by mystics or “normal” lay people with a non-conforming idea, they call these who question CINO – Catholic in Name Only. I assert that’s exactly what anybody is who thinks the way to heaven is by earning our way there with our amassing of knowledge and trying to act like the people Jesus said not to act like. Will you stand up to these liars who will spread gossip and lies to make themselves feel important and informed, without regard that following their lies could cost you your relationship with God?

Once more, let’s look at the CCC about the three expressions of prayer, sliced and diced a different way for hope of bringing clarity:

Q: WHAT KINDS OF PRAYER DOES THE CHURCH CALL US TO?

2720 The Church invites the faithful to regular prayer: daily prayers, the Liturgy of the Hours, Sunday Eucharist, the feasts of the liturgical year.

2721 The Christian tradition comprises three major expressions of the life of prayer: vocal prayer, meditation, and contemplative prayer. They have in common the recollection of the heart.

Q: OK SO THERE ARE VOCAL, MEDITATIVE, AND CONTEMPLATIVE PRAYER? WHAT ABOUT VOCAL PRAYER? ARE WE GETTING RID OF THAT?

No.

2704 Because it is external and so thoroughly human, vocal prayer is the form of prayer most readily accessible to groups. Even interior prayer, however, cannot neglect vocal prayer. Prayer is internalized to the extent that we become aware of him "to whom we speak;"4 Thus vocal prayer becomes an initial form of contemplative prayer.

Q: SO VOCAL PRAYER IS THE BEGINNING OF CONTEMPLATIVE PRAYER? ARE YOU KIDDING ME?

You tell me – reread 2704.

Q; WHAT ABOUT MEDITATION PRAYERS? DOESN’T THAT, ALONG WITH PRAYERS OF MEDITATION, MAKE OUR PRAYERS COMPLETE?

2708 Meditation engages thought, imagination, emotion, and desire. This mobilization of faculties is necessary in order to deepen our convictions of faith, prompt the conversion of our heart, and strengthen our will to follow Christ. Christian prayer tries above all to meditate on the mysteries of Christ, as in lectio divina or the rosary. This form of prayerful reflection is of great value, but Christian prayer should go further: to the knowledge of the love of the Lord Jesus, to union with him.

Q: OH YEAH? IT “SHOULD”? REALLY? IF MEDITATION DOESN’T DO IT, WHAT TYPE OF PRAYER MIGHT LEAD US TO UNION WITH JESUS?

2718 Contemplative prayer is a union with the prayer of Christ insofar as it makes us participate in his mystery. The mystery of Christ is celebrated by the Church in the Eucharist, and the Holy Spirit makes it come alive in contemplative prayer so that our charity will manifest it in our acts.

So the contemplative prayer helps make the Eucharist “come alive” in us… isn’t that kind of exciting to consider? :dancing:

So yes, according to the Church, contemplative prayer can form a union that apparently is not an expectation of either vocal or meditative.

Quit fighting so hard to keep yourself in the chains of lies that threaten your soul by telling you that you can earn your way into heaven – thus emptying the cross of Christ of its power in your life. Jesus unlocked those chains, so you can walk away from them any time you wish and the Lord wills for you to “see” it. Open your eyes, ears, and heart and recognize there is a reason you are so obsessed with this topic. Why spend all this time and energy over telling people not to spend time not expending energy? Maybe the Spirit is leading you to investigate a prayer form of the church, by starting out from the opposing position of those who lie and divide – so that when and if you see it, you will have a deep and complete appreciation of just how off-base what goes for “good Catholic advice” can be! Kind of like Saul to Paul thing but with prayer not virtue.

If questioning them is scary and you don’t feel you can stand up to them like the way you have us, then don’t say anything to them; just know they speak lies so you cannot trust what they say.

MS

 

[cjforJesus]

Don’t try to force it into a “form” so the liar can use the “prayer isn’t a form” objection and/or pit it against the Eucharist. Again, the Rosary is a very precisely defined “prayer form” and you believe that will get you closer to God or why do you do it – “sitting in silence” is about as open-ended as they get. You have been told to denigrate and fear this, by saying it shares a feature epitomized by something you cling to! Do you not see how hilarious that is?

This isn’t to put you down. I’ve been through much the same things because I grew up entirely an academic with no clue of mysticism or frankly social interaction.

The claim that this type prayer brings us to unity in Christ, significantly more so than vocal or meditation, are from the CCC, which you said you believe. And I am calling your bluff.

So the CCC is saying that this type of prayer will lead to unity with Jesus. If you don’t agree with that, then you may quit saying that you conform your beliefs to the CCC. Because it will be apparent that you wear the “I go by the CCC” but refuse to accept what it stands for. You wear it as a badge and as a defensive tactic against the potential for truth to reach you. When academics are questioned by mystics or “normal” lay people with a non-conforming idea, they call these who question CINO – Catholic in Name Only. I assert that’s exactly what anybody is who thinks the way to heaven is by earning our way there with our amassing of knowledge and trying to act like the people Jesus said not to act like. Will you stand up to these liars who will spread gossip and lies to make themselves feel important and informed, without regard that following their lies could cost you your relationship with God?

Once more, let’s look at the CCC about the three expressions of prayer, sliced and diced a different way for hope of bringing clarity:

Q: WHAT KINDS OF PRAYER DOES THE CHURCH CALL US TO?

2720 The Church invites the faithful to regular prayer: daily prayers, the Liturgy of the Hours, Sunday Eucharist, the feasts of the liturgical year.

2721 The Christian tradition comprises three major expressions of the life of prayer: vocal prayer, meditation, and contemplative prayer. They have in common the recollection of the heart.

Q: OK SO THERE ARE VOCAL, MEDITATIVE, AND CONTEMPLATIVE PRAYER? WHAT ABOUT VOCAL PRAYER? ARE WE GETTING RID OF THAT?

No.

2704 Because it is external and so thoroughly human, vocal prayer is the form of prayer most readily accessible to groups. Even interior prayer, however, cannot neglect vocal prayer. Prayer is internalized to the extent that we become aware of him "to whom we speak;"4 Thus vocal prayer becomes an initial form of contemplative prayer.

Q: SO VOCAL PRAYER IS THE BEGINNING OF CONTEMPLATIVE PRAYER? ARE YOU KIDDING ME?

You tell me – reread 2704.

Q; WHAT ABOUT MEDITATION PRAYERS? DOESN’T THAT, ALONG WITH PRAYERS OF MEDITATION, MAKE OUR PRAYERS COMPLETE?

2708 Meditation engages thought, imagination, emotion, and desire. This mobilization of faculties is necessary in order to deepen our convictions of faith, prompt the conversion of our heart, and strengthen our will to follow Christ. Christian prayer tries above all to meditate on the mysteries of Christ, as in lectio divina or the rosary. This form of prayerful reflection is of great value, but Christian prayer should go further: to the knowledge of the love of the Lord Jesus, to union with him.

Q: OH YEAH? IT “SHOULD”? REALLY? IF MEDITATION DOESN’T DO IT, WHAT TYPE OF PRAYER MIGHT LEAD US TO UNION WITH JESUS?

2718 Contemplative prayer is a union with the prayer of Christ insofar as it makes us participate in his mystery. The mystery of Christ is celebrated by the Church in the Eucharist, and the Holy Spirit makes it come alive in contemplative prayer so that our charity will manifest it in our acts.

So the contemplative prayer helps make the Eucharist “come alive” in us… isn’t that kind of exciting to consider? :dancing:

So yes, according to the Church, contemplative prayer can form a union that apparently is not an expectation of either vocal or meditative.

Quit fighting so hard to keep yourself in the chains of lies that threaten your soul by telling you that you can earn your way into heaven – thus emptying the cross of Christ of its power in your life. Jesus unlocked those chains, so you can walk away from them any time you wish and the Lord wills for you to “see” it. Open your eyes, ears, and heart and recognize there is a reason you are so obsessed with this topic. Why spend all this time and energy over telling people not to spend time not expending energy? Maybe the Spirit is leading you to investigate a prayer form of the church, by starting out from the opposing position of those who lie and divide – so that when and if you see it, you will have a deep and complete appreciation of just how off-base what goes for “good Catholic advice” can be! Kind of like Saul to Paul thing but with prayer not virtue.

If questioning them is scary and you don’t feel you can stand up to them like the way you have us, then don’t say anything to them; just know they speak lies so you cannot trust what they say.

MS

The Eucharist also unites us with Jesus. Mystical, don’t forget we consume the Body Blood Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ. How wonderful a gift!

I am obsessed with a lot of topics. Usually when there is some sort of contradiction I try to figure out a reason. If you think i am bad here you should see me analyzing the Shroud,Marian apparitions, aliens,and my all time favorite: “what the heck is kundalini”.?

 

[DBT]

Thank you, Dave. But one thing I have decided, is that I am going to rejoin the Secular Franciscans.

Sorry, I must have missed this. Contratulations MS! My prayers are with you.

Dave

 

[cjforJesus]

Mystical,I just realized that probably most Catholics do some form of contemplation, me included.It is just thinking about Jesus and loving Him. The forms where one chants a mantra to empty the mind I probably will never agree with.

 

[DBT]

So how do you know when someone is a true contemplative? Do they look or act different than the average person?

As JimR described, you’ll never be able to identify a contemplative just by looking at them. They come from all walks of life … rich, poor, old, young, black, white etc. These are by and large “hidden” souls meaning they’re very private about their interior life. Sometimes they don’t even know they’re contemplatives in the academic way we’re discussing here … it’s just the natural way they pray.

There is, however, a certain “attitude” about them that those who know surely will recognize when they see it. I like the way the author of The Cloud describes it … for what he says is similar to how our community discerns if an aspirant has a true religious vocation vs someone who simply has a natural curiosity about contemplation:
Privy Counseling:

I have given you two kinds of evidence for discerning whether or not God is calling you spiritually to contemplation. One was interior and the other exterior. Neither one, by itself, is sufficient proof. They must occur together. The interior sign is that growing desire for contemplation constantly intruding in your daily devotions. The second sign is exterior and manifests itself as a certain joyful enthusiasm welling up within you whenever you hear or read about contemplation.

Privy Counseling:

If it is not with you (the desire for contemplation) when you go to sleep and wake up and if it does not go before you constantly intruding in all you do, enkindling and capturing your desire, it is not God’s call to a more intense life of grace beyond what I call the common (beginner) door and entry for all Christians.

Dave

 

[Robert_Sock]

BTW: When engaged in Contemplative Prayer, I think I can feel Satan flee from me in that I become calm and peaceful and do not have discourse with my thoughts.

 

[Michael_Mayo]

We had a pretty good thread going on this theme and St John of the Cross:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=894914

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

The Eucharist also unites us with Jesus. Mystical, don’t forget we consume the Body Blood Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ. How wonderful a gift!

Absolutely! Plus at our church we have 24/7 adoration chapel, for the last 20+ years! :bible1:

I am obsessed with a lot of topics. Usually when there is some sort of contradiction I try to figure out a reason. If you think i am bad here you should see me analyzing the Shroud,Marian apparitions, aliens,and my all time favorite: “what the heck is kundalini”.?

That’s because you are brilliant, and curious. You won’t settle for something that doesn’t connect, when you believe there is “more to the story” – at least how you come across to me. I also understand you like to qualify your sources. Personally I’m more freelance – I’ll listen to anybody’s idea no matter how stupid, unless they are just plain tedious or too boring. I try to talk others’ language rather than force them to accept mine, but like you I have a low tolerance for just pretending some “gap” does not exist. I may have no control and have to let go of its emotional power over me, but I can’t just fake like something is OK when I see a disparity because I’m not that good an actor. Sooner or later my “real feelings” come out so might as well lay them on the table right up front, eh?

Mystical,I just realized that probably most Catholics do some form of contemplation, me included.It is just thinking about Jesus and loving Him. The forms where one chants a mantra to empty the mind I probably will never agree with.

That is an amazingly simple way to explain it, and I can agree completely!

Almost completely, at least. You are still trying to make rest into work; Mary who feels guilty at the call of Martha, but that’s just my limited perception bleating blather through my bloviated ego into my fingers and unfortunately, onto your screen. I apologize for being like I was an hour ago. Oh wait I mean a minute ago … ummm .

But I agree with the part that ‘we all do it’ – completely. I think that’s the part I have to celebrate most urgently.

Hey I have to hold something back to “save face” in case I ever have to hide behind it in the future.

MS

 

[cjforJesus]

We had a pretty good thread going on this theme and St John of the Cross:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=894914

History of modern contemplative Prayer

Contemplative Prayer was developed as a response to the Vatican II invitation to revive the contemplative teachings of early Christianity and present them in updated formats. In this way, the method of Contemplative Prayer is drawn from the ancient practices of the Christian contemplative heritage, notably the traditional monastic practice of Lectio Divina and the practices described in the anonymous fourteenth century classic The Cloud of Unknowing and in the writings of Christian mystics such as John Cassian, Francis de Sales, Teresa of Avila, John of the Cross, Therese of Lisieux, and Thomas Merton. Most importantly, Contemplative Prayer is based on the wisdom saying of Jesus in the Sermon on the Mount:
“…when you pray, go to your inner room, close the door and pray to your Father in secret. And your Father, who sees in secret, will repay you.”
Matthew 6.6 (New American Bible)

In the 1970s, answering the call of Vatican II, three Trappist monks at St. Joseph’s Abbey in Spencer, Massachusetts, Fathers William Meninger, Basil Pennington and Thomas Keating, looked to these ancient sources to develop a simple method of silent prayer for contemporary people. The prayer came to be known as contemplative Prayer in reference to Thomas Merton’s description of contemplative prayer as prayer that is “centered entirely on the presence of God.” The monks offered Contemplative Prayer workshops and retreats to both clergy members and laypeople. Interest in the prayer spread, and shortly after the first intensive Contemplative Prayer retreat in 1983, the organization Contemplative Outreach was formed to support the growing network of Contemplative Prayer practitioners.

Today Contemplative Prayer is practiced by people all around the world, creating local and global networks of Christians in communion with Christ and each other and contributing to the renewal of the contemplative dimension of Christianity.

This seems to imply the modern form of contemplation was adopted very recently in history.I cannot find any mention of it in the old Baltimore Catechism.

 

[cjforJesus]

Absolutely! Plus at our church we have 24/7 adoration chapel, for the last 20+ years! :bible1:

That’s because you are brilliant, and curious. You won’t settle for something that doesn’t connect, when you believe there is “more to the story” – at least how you come across to me. I also understand you like to qualify your sources. Personally I’m more freelance – I’ll listen to anybody’s idea no matter how stupid, unless they are just plain tedious or too boring. I try to talk others’ language rather than force them to accept mine, but like you I have a low tolerance for just pretending some “gap” does not exist. I may have no control and have to let go of its emotional power over me, but I can’t just fake like something is OK when I see a disparity because I’m not that good an actor. Sooner or later my “real feelings” come out so might as well lay them on the table right up front, eh?

That is an amazingly simple way to explain it, and I can agree completely!

Almost completely, at least. You are still trying to make rest into work; Mary who feels guilty at the call of Martha, but that’s just my limited perception bleating blather through my bloviated ego into my fingers and unfortunately, onto your screen. I apologize for being like I was an hour ago. Oh wait I mean a minute ago … ummm .

But I agree with the part that ‘we all do it’ – completely. I think that’s the part I have to celebrate most urgently.

Hey I have to hold something back to “save face” in case I ever have to hide behind it in the future.

MS

Mary listening at the feet of Jesus was NOT emptying her mind but diligently listening and learning from Him.

I read a thesis paper online though I cannot honestly say I understood it. It was on the Cloud of unknowing and affirmation and negation. Excerpts from the original work were used and WOW that style of writing is VERY difficult to interpret. Throughout the work the author uses descriptions of negation which also affirms something.At the end he frequently uses metaphors in regards to “The Word” being Jesus yet I was shocked to notice there was no mention that He is with us until the end of the age in the Eucharist.This seemed a great omission and leaving a crucial part of faith out of the thesis.