The Cloud of Unknowing & Contemplative Prayer

[JimR-OCDS]

There is a difference between what we now call “contemplative prayer,” and contemplation, whether acquired or infused.

In fact, “contemplative prayer,” has only been recently used in describing the method of prayer which was described as"quiet prayer," or 'interior prayer." as Abba Isaac, St John Cassian, and later St Teresa and St John of the Cross did.

But use of the term today, “Contemplative Prayer,” merely means that we are beginning to turn to God who dwells within, and open ourselves to his gift of contemplation, which will come in no specified amount of time. It’s up to God when the soul receives the gift of contemplation.

“Prayer of Quiet,” is something most will experience as they begin interior prayer, and it’s not new. In fact its in the 1917 version of the Catholic Encyclopedia.

Prayer of Quiet

The Prayer of Quiet is regarded by all writers on mystical theology as one of the degrees of contemplation. It has to be distinguished therefore from meditation and from affective prayer. It holds an intermediary place between the latter and the prayer of union. As the name implies the prayer of quiet is that in which the soul experiences an extraordinary peace and rest, accompanied by delight or pleasure in contemplating God as present. In this prayer God gives to the soul an intellectual knowledge of His presence, and makes it feel that it is really in communication with Him, although He does this in a somewhat obscure manner.

newadvent.org/cathen/12608b.htm

In all, you if you are being called to contemplation, you will be drawn to contemplative prayer. You need to listen to God’s call and follow the advice of those contemplatives like the Monks and Sisters who are in contemplative orders and live the life of contemplatives.

Jim

 

[DBT]

That is an insightfull explaination.

One thing that remains a mystery to me about the acquired is that it is really a prayer of silence of the soul in waiting for the special touch of God. And during that waiting period a person should place themselves in the state of love.

But I’ve always wondered how can a soul love when love requires an object of love, and the soul, during contemplation, has set itself in a thoughtless mode which seems to eliminate any possibility of an object of love? In short, it seems like this would be insurmountable difficulty. This is something that has alway been quite puzzeling.

There is something else about the Blessed Sacrament and being in his presence. There is the story about a man who sits there and when asked what he is doing, he says, “I am here, and Jesus is there.” And I have heard so often that this is contemplation or at least some form of it. As a song long ago said, “is that all there is?” If that is contemplation than we have a good number of contemplates in our parish in their hour of adoration. Again, I don’t mean to put this down as a form of great and loving faith. But contemplation… I don’t know. Which brings up another bend in the road.

Is it possible to think about the presence of Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament and be in contemplation when contemplation is a prayer of quiet or peaceful silence. The mind is in a state of knowing Jesus thru faith when being in the presence of the Blessed Sacrament. Yet contemplation is to put out of the mind all thinking which I would think would include our knowing his presence in the Sacrament.

In saying all of this I don’t mean to put anything down but just airing out some of the curves in the road.

May the God of hope fill you with joy.

Hi Fred -

What very insightful questions … I’ll do my best to provide a response. I’m sure others will add too.

First, I think a problem all of us have from time to time is over thinking contemplation … for nothing can be more simple in actual practice.

Second, you raise an important point about the need to “know” before one can “love.” That’s why spiritual writers state there’s typically a progression in our prayer … that meditation generally comes first and hopefully, God willing, leads us to contemplation.

Next, we are very fortunate the CCC provides us with a very broad and expansive definition of contemplation. All too often we tend to be too narrow and rigid in our descriptions on these threads. Certainly just “looking” at Christ like you say can be considered one aspect or type of contemplation. And in that light there are probably many more contemplatives among us than we might think.

Your questions seem to focus on the degree of silence in our mind and heart that must be acheived before one can be truly said to be contemplating. Again, the CCC shows there are many degrees to such silence.

At one end of the spectrum our mind might be relatively active in the “loving conversation between friends” that St. Teresa calls mental prayer … and which the CCC lumps under the general banner of contemplation in it’s descriptions. At the other end we might have the relative stillness of St. John’s “loving attentiveness” so wonderfully captured in the expression you cite of “I look at Him and He looks at me.” Many spiritual writers would consider all of this acquired contemplation … as does the CCC. A type of prayer we can and should do if so drawn to it. There are times and seasons to all this, though … some days our prayer might tend toward the affectivity of a Teresa and other days to the simplicity of a John. Learning to “go with the flow” is so important in all of this.

Lastly, when the Lord Himself brings on the interior silence, we can then be said to be entering the realms of infused contemplation. But that, perhaps, is a story for another day.

Blessings,
Dave

 

[Bookcat]

“Prayer of Quiet,” is something most will experience as they begin interior prayer, and it’s not new.

Yes it is not new (though the term was new a few hundred years ago) but it is also not something that most will experience as they begin interior prayer. Such comes usually after much more sand is beneath the one sandals.

 

[Bookcat]

There is a difference between what we now call “contemplative prayer,” and contemplation, whether acquired or infused.

Yes the terms “contemplation” and “contemplative prayer” have been used in various ways over the centuries in the Church - and writers can mean various things. And of ones goes from one to the other - one will find confusion unless one understands this (trying to put such thing into categories and schema’s over the centuries has been quite an adventure - difficult to do!)

“Contemplative Prayer” can refer to either acquired contemplation or infused to use later terms etc. etc.

Such is how the Church uses the term in the Catechism (it looks really to the varied uses over the ages for this section):

scborromeo.org/ccc/p4s1c3a1.htm#III

 

[Michael_Mayo]

Is it possible to think about the presence of Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament and be in contemplation when contemplation is a prayer of quiet or peaceful silence. The mind is in a state of knowing Jesus thru faith when being in the presence of the Blessed Sacrament. Yet contemplation is to put out of the mind all thinking which I would think would include our knowing his presence in the Sacrament.

Words fail us in all this but perhaps it is a matter of thought subtlety and a rhythmic alternation.

Awareness and mindfulness of the presence of Christ carries us to a more subtle mode of consciousness that only God truly understands. God takes us into this other state of mind and heart for whatever time and then returns us to our more familiar thoughts and images.

The image that comes to mind is when we are trying to walk in water that is about up to our eyes and we tip toe through pushing up to breath until gravity slowly returns us to contact with the bottom through the resistance of the water. That contact is like our mystical union with God, usually momentary and we are back up into our thoughts until we gradually draw near again.

But the thing is the rhythm between thinking awareness and resting awareness. Even in 30 minutes of prayer we can 'touch the bottom" several times and more frequently toward the end.
of the period.

 

[DBT]

The approach etc of the ancients (where I tend to these days) …

I am late to the game learning and appreciating the beauty of what the Patristic writers, in particular, have to say on on this. Actually it was a Carmelite friar who recently got me started with them after he told me that’s all he himself reads these days … especially St. John Chrysostom. I marvel at their expressions of divinization … particularly how the Three Divine Persons mutually contemplate each other. And that, God willing, our prayer too should join with theirs. It adds real meaning to the words of John’s Gospel to “remain in me.”

As to “how” all this might actually work I find comfort in the expressions we often find in the Psalms … to wit, “From the heavens, God gazes upon His people.” When stripped down to the prayer of creature and Creator this seems to translate to the expressions of St. John of the Cross in the latter stanza’s of Spiritual Canticle where God and soul simply look at each other in a mutual exchange of love.

Perhaps that look of love may also contain the heart-felt words and longing we see expressed by the bride in Song of Songs. At other times, no words may be needed at all … the simple glance alone suffices. Or, as the more modern Brother Lawrence would say, “an interior smile to He whom we know is present.”

Dave

 

[Bookcat]

the Patristic writers

And not only them but the writers after them…into the middle ages (like our good writer here of the Cloud).

 

[clem456]

In my experience,

If you are seeking after higher states of prayer, you will not find them.
If you are conscious you are in a higher state of prayer, you are probably not.

But, God works as he will in each of us.
It is very possible that the person who knows nothing about the “Cloud” or cannot even spell the word contemplation may reach higher union with God by “babbling” through rote sets of prayers… a prayer life that we perceive as “beginner”. That is very possible.
We imagine we know what holiness looks like. Maybe we are deceived. Only God knows the heart.

St John of the Cross is one of my favorites, and his writings are full of healthy skepticism and caution about reaching for higher states. He cautions repeatedly that the devil likes to use favorable thoughts and experiences to pump us full of ourselves.

“Oh, Lord, that others might become holier than I, as long as I become as holy as you would have me be, grant me the grace to desire this.”

 

[InLight247]

The authors views are very problematic IMHO.I have scoured some of his writings and though there is good solid doctrine in them he definitely opposes some Church teachings or at least is publicly skirting the issue. He agreed many years ago to not publicly promote gay lifestyle friendly organizations.

**In one fairly recent writing though he claimed it is heresy to call GLBT individuals “intrinsically disordered”.**That is a gross misinterpretation of what the catechism says in regards to the ACTS not the individuals.

This is an excerpt from the writing:
“The True Self, who we objectively are in God, is prior and superior to any issues of gender, culture or sexuality, which are all “accidental” to one’s foundational core as a child of God. This is why it is pure heresy to call a transgendered, gay or lesbian person “intrinsically disordered.” (The intrinsic foundation of the human person is given by God and untouchable by any human intervention whatsoever.) Gender is a combination of biology, psychology and personal history, which are all good and necessary entrance points to the temple, but spirituality is learning how to live in the temple itself (1 Corinthians 3:16-17). What makes spirituality precisely “spiritual” is that it connects us with the Core and the Center, not just the circumference; with the essence and not just the accidents”.- Fr Rohr

Contradictions of this sort disturb me and I have seen the same discord in regards to one of the original charismatics(Dusquene weekend) a brilliant professor who received a laying on of hands by a female pentecostal minister. Thankfully he returned to the Church before he passed away.

See the link from bishop accountability about Rohr:
bishop-accountability.org/news2007/09_10/2006_01_23_Abbott_PriestThe.htm. Some content in this link can blow your mind off.

You mentioned some part of Rohr’s writing has good doctrine in it. Please know that mixing poison with good ingredients is the best way to gradually kill someone. You may eat a cake only with a drop of poison without knowing it. If you eat it day in and day out, your health will be damaged. But once you know the existence of the poison, you would stop eating the cake right away. Therefore, I suggest you stop reading Rohr’s works. Do not allow your mind to be polluted. Read the authentic writings of the Saints.

And do not allow your heart be disturbed. Rohr is not the only priest who promotes homosexuality. Many bishops and priests now openly advocate Holy Communion for active gays. Again, this is no surprise because Satan always wants to destroy the Church from within. In 2000 years of Church history, heresy has happened many times. Jesus has already warned us - there are wolves in the sheep skin.

We need to focus our eyes on Jesus and pray for our Holy Catholic Church.

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

See the link from bishop accountability about Rohr:
bishop-accountability.org/news2007/09_10/2006_01_23_Abbott_PriestThe.htm. Some content in this link can blow your mind off.

You mentioned some part of Rohr’s writing has good doctrine in it. Please know that mixing poison with good ingredients is the best way to gradually kill someone. You may eat a cake only with a drop of poison without knowing it. If you eat it day in and day out, your health will be damaged. But once you know the existence of the poison, you would stop eating the cake right away. Therefore, I suggest you stop reading Rohr’s works. Do not allow your mind to be polluted. Read the authentic writings of the Saints.

And do not allow your heart be disturbed. Rohr is not the only priest who promotes homosexuality. Many bishops and priests now openly advocate Holy Communion for active gays. Again, this is no surprise because Satan always wants to destroy the Church from within. In 2000 years of Church history, heresy has happened many times. Jesus has already warned us - there are wolves in the sheep skin.

We need to focus our eyes on Jesus and pray for our Holy Catholic Church.

Oh, here we go… getting out the Big Weapons … Pride, Fear, and Division … woo hoo ramping up quickly …

quickly …

Watch Out! The thread is about to go … no … oh no … Full Ritard!… AAAAHhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!! :bigyikes:

Oh well it was great while it lasted. :aok:

Thank you everyone for participating. In case the useful portion of the thread has been completed, much good discussion certainly has taken place up until this point, and we should all be happy. :tiphat:

Maybe this helps explain why the author says if the book doesn’t appeal to you, he’d rather someone not read it; look what can happen on a related issue.

Maybe I’m wrong; nothing is impossible for God.

Meanwhile I’m happy … let’s see what the Lord brings us in time …

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

Wait a minute. I shouldn’t give up so easily, especially when it involves personal attacks a religious man who has helped me to find treasure beyond what I even knew possible, without even having to die first… I’m going to turn my back on him? I’m sorry for even considering so. :imsorry:

I think for every time I see Rohr maligned with the same ol’ same ol’ stuff – and I’m not denying he says controversial stuff, but the attacks on him go way beyond truthful reporting and clear into fantasy fear land – I will match it and raise it by posting from his writings…

I haven’t been reading his daily emails, so this is really a great reminder for me to start again; this is how the Lord works – even through my sinful egotic reaction to attacks against His servants, He still sees that I am blessed. No doubt I will gain from this and bring me closer to the Lord … Rom 8:28, Baby! Just gotta keep having trust and not give up. :heaven:

Maybe the thread will morph off topic an onto personal attacks on Rohr, and we can “seal it” for documentation of “how these threads go”. That would be apropos; maybe I’ll work on an epitaph which I will work into other unsuspecting threads.

Here is today’s daily email reflection from Rohr. Enjoy. Or seeth in fury; you have the free will to decide:

---

The Franciscan Path of Descent

When You Say Yes to Love,
You also Say Yes to Suffering

Wednesday, June 10, 2015

One of my fellow Franciscans, Murray Bodo, wrote a wonderful and poetic book about the life of Francis entitled Francis: The Journey and the Dream. This excerpt from his book captures how letting go, or kenosis (self-emptying), made space within and without, allowing Francis to be filled with divine love that then flowed out in joyful service to the world [1]:

"The demands of Jesus were hard, but to Francis they were love-requests and the harder they seemed, the more elated he was that Jesus should ask him. It was a privilege far surpassing any gift that earthly lovers gave one another. . . .

"He knew Jesus loved him because He made such terrible demands of him, the most difficult of which were the invitations all through the Gospels to leave everyone and everything for His sake. But the more Francis renounced, the more he possessed, pressed down and flowing over. It seemed that Jesus wanted Francis to give up everything so that He could have the joy of returning it as a gift to Francis. That way Jesus could keep handing back what Francis had first given Him, and there would be an eternal effort to outdo one another in selflessness. They understood each other and were becoming one flesh in a manner that man and woman could never duplicate. And that was love as Francis had hoped it would be.

“[The] paradox in Francis’ life was that his exclusive love for Jesus was at the same time inclusive of all humanity. Again what he had renounced had come rushing down in waterfalls of new capacities for love and giving. And the pool of self was constantly refilled with the fresh and clean water of love that flowed out of Francis in countless streams of attention, affection, and service of others. The living waters of Jesus had become his own, and he thereby became a reservoir of unselfish love for all creatures.”

It is no accident that Francis of Assisi is the first documented person to ever carry the physical wounds of Jesus in his hands, feet, and side, which he did for the last two years of his life. These wounds are called the stigmata or the “marks of Jesus” (Galatians 6:17). They surely demonstrate Francis’ complete psycho-somatic identification with Jesus, both crucified and resurrected. Both Jesus and Francis believed, lived, and taught that we dare not define love apart from suffering. Without suffering, “love” is mere sentimentality and not nearly enough to save the world–or anybody. [2]

Gateway to Silence
Make me a channel of your peace.

References:
[1] Murray Bodo, Francis: The Journey and the Dream (Franciscan Media: 2011, 40th anniversary edition), 46-47.

[2] Adapted from Richard Rohr, The Art of Letting Go: Living the Wisdom of Saint Francis (Sounds True), disc 6 (CD)

 

[Michael_Mayo]

Please know that mixing poison with good ingredients is the best way to gradually kill someone. You may eat a cake only with a drop of poison without knowing it. If you eat it day in and day out, your health will be damaged. But once you know the existence of the poison, you would stop eating the cake right away. Therefore, I suggest you stop reading Rohr’s works. Do not allow your mind to be polluted. Read the authentic writings of the Saints.

So have you also given up foods with processed sugar and saturated fats?

 

[JimR-OCDS]

So the thread turns into a gossip column against Fr Rohr.



Jim

 

[InLight247]

It’s a shame to see a person being disturbed about contemplation because a famous writer who claims to be contemplative speaks against Church’s teaching. Contemplation is a pure form of prayer. It brings us closer to God. It should help us toward holiness. Advocacy of mortal sin has no place in this loving relationship with God.

My post was simply addressing to the concern of “cjfor jesus”. cj has a honest interest in contemplation and his distress should be answered. That is why I waited for long to see if anyone responded to his particular concern before I posted. I had no intention to attack anyone but simply answer cj’s legitimate concern.

Both Old and New Testaments are very clear about the grave sin of sodomy. None of the Saints, contemplative or not, had ever approved homosexuality. These are all non-deniable facts.

When we have the treasures of St. John of the Cross, St. Teresa of Avila, St. Therese, and Brother Lawrence for spiritual guidance, why bother to read any controversial writings that disturb our peace of mind? That is where I come from.

 

[fred_conty]

Would it be correct to say that there are more ways of contemplative prayer than fit into acquired and infused contemplation?

 

[DBT]

Would it be correct to say that there are more ways of contemplative prayer than fit into acquired and infused contemplation?

Hi Fred -

I’m not entirely sure I understand your question. My first thought would be to have you look at the descriptions in the CCC. If you see yourself in there in some small way then please be at peace with it all. If not, that’s ok too.

Sometimes labels obscure more than they reveal. Different writers use different terms and expressions to describe the contemplative experience … mental prayer, prayer of the heart, prayer of simplicity to name just a few. At the end of the day, labels like this just don’t matter.

Hope this helps,
Dave

 

[underacloud]

Would it be correct to say that there are more ways of contemplative prayer than fit into acquired and infused contemplation?

No, not really. But perhaps you don’t quite understand what these terms mean.

Here are good definitions of each, from Fr. John Hardon’s Modern Catholic Dictionary:

ACQUIRED CONTEMPLATION

The prayer of simple recollection, in which acts of the mind and will are the result of a person’s own effort aided by grace, and helped by the gifts of knowledge, wisdom, and understanding coming from the Holy Spirit, so that the mind and will remain fixed on God.

catholicculture.org/culture/library/dictionary/index.cfm?id=31624

INFUSED CONTEMPLATION

A supernatural gift by which a person’s mind and will become totally centered on God. Under this influence the intellect receives special insights into things of the spirit, and the affections are extraordinarily animated with divine love. Infused contemplation assumes the free co-operation of the human will.

catholicculture.org/culture/library/dictionary/index.cfm?id=34205

In short (and somewhat imperfectly), aquired contemptlation is from our own efforts (but still with God’s grace) and we are active in it, while infused contemplation is through God’s working in us and we are passive in it (though cooperating).

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

It’s a shame to see a person being disturbed about contemplation because a famous writer who claims to be contemplative speaks against Church’s teaching. Contemplation is a pure form of prayer. It brings us closer to God. It should help us toward holiness. Advocacy of mortal sin has no place in this loving relationship with God.

My post was simply addressing to the concern of “cjfor jesus”. cj has a honest interest in contemplation and his distress should be answered. That is why I waited for long to see if anyone responded to his particular concern before I posted. I had no intention to attack anyone but simply answer cj’s legitimate concern.

Both Old and New Testaments are very clear about the grave sin of sodomy. None of the Saints, contemplative or not, had ever approved homosexuality. These are all non-deniable facts.

When we have the treasures of St. John of the Cross, St. Teresa of Avila, St. Therese, and Brother Lawrence for spiritual guidance, why bother to read any controversial writings that disturb our peace of mind? That is where I come from.

Yes, I recognize you exercised Great Restraint on holding your anti-Rohr “trump card” so you can pretend like “hey I’m not spreading lies and gossip about the man, just answering a question that the Love of God and Man required being answered”.

Timing is important; sometimes the “justifying BS” is only there for a moment and you have to act quickly! “Honest … I had no choice!”

Nothing about trying to be important by added “the critical piece” to complete the puzzle for us. Personally, my huge ego would Never want to be That Guy, for sure. Would it? nahhhhh

Yes, I appreciate that you did all your best to stop yourself from maligning him. But when push comes to shove, it is the Solemn Duty for a Catholic to tell other Catholics which religious people you don’t know anything about are Dangerous to attend to. After all, the “grapevine” can’t be wrong, right?

You have done Truth a favor by letting that bull-hockey out of its cage where we can all see that Old Friend once again, and marvel at how easy it is to Really Scare Catholics.

And the funny part is, the article is exactly “truth mixed with poison.”



Let’s check how that measures out on the instrumentation:



It’s really kind of hilarious, or it would be if souls weren’t at stake. :sad_yes:

For that matter, poison isn’t always bad. I just remembered I have to take my rat poison – I almost died from blood clots twice so the poison is required to keep me alive. Funny how that works.

Just like the poisonous calumny in that article you linked, is what keeps it alive in the hive mentality of the More Catholic Than You crowd.

Thank you for going ahead and getting that out of the way. I was wondering why it took so long, but now I see it was from compassion for Fr. Rohr and your desire not to spread evil lies about him. It had to happen sometime; you may as well have been the one to do it.

Think I’m being overly harsh? Prove it. Engage yourself in learning more about this man, and actually read some of his work and listen to him to learn what he says in context, rather than going by what is said about him. Then explain to me how your research supports the garbage you posted as “useful information” and if you even come close to having a “decent case” then I will apologize. :imsorry:

I welcome you to a PM exchange whereby we can hash out some of these details.

MS

 

[Bookcat]

I was wondering why it took so long, but now I see it was from compassion for Fr. Rohr and your desire not to spread evil lies about him. It had to happen sometime; you may as well have been the one to do it.

Think I’m being overly harsh? Prove it. Engage yourself in learning more about this man, and actually read some of his work and listen to him to learn what he says in context, rather than going by what is said about him. Then explain to me how your research supports the garbage you posted as “useful information” and if you even come close to having a “decent case” then I will apologize.

Hey .come on…I know it is late at night…lets cool our jets

As for the OP - I do not comment on his information - it is something likely he found quickly in a search -after recalling that Fr. Rohr is a problematic figure. I believe he is well intentioned as I hope we all here are.

There are though real concerns. One can discuss the matter with the Apologists at Catholic Answers (our hosts here!)- they can relay to you what the various problematic aspects of his Teachings etc are. He has been mentioned a number of times over the years on the Catholic Answers radio show.

Here is from one of the Apologists from this time last year (perhaps something has changed in a year…but I cannot say):

Jun 10, '14, 2:44 pm

Fr. Vincent Serpa
Catholic Answers Apologist

Hi,

Fr. Richard Rohr is a Franciscan who seems to have really fallen off the rails with regard to his fidelity to the teachings of the Catholic Church. I would never encourage anyone to go on one of his retreats.

catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?id=3611&CFID=59882772&CFTOKEN=73063193

Fr. Vincent Serpa, O.P.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=12073470&highlight=rohr#post12073470

Now I need to get headed for bed…

Have a pleasant evening.

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

So the thread turns into a gossip column against Fr Rohr.



Jim

I was proud of us for holding out this long.

But I’m not going to slink into hiding places any more. I see and recognize how ego drive us all, including me, and there really is no reason for me to be afraid to speak “and defend” truth, just because non-truth and “truth mixed with poison” tend to speak louder and be more condemning.

Strange thing – when I was growing up I never realized that truth had to be “defended.” I was so naive I thought it only had to be conveyed and/or explained. I was in my 30’s before I learned that BS sells better than truth so often, maybe because it is specifically crafted and targeted to achieve a goal and relies on human ignorance and/or sinful tendencies, to spread effectively. It has to have just the right amount of detail, alleged factoids to innuendo ratio, etc. People get college degrees on how to present BS so that it embeds itself effectively in the minds of its hosts. “Marketing” is the most obvious group name for this activity.

I’ve been condemned by enough people why should I care what somebody who participates in calumny and lies against religious thinks about me?

For the first time in my life, I finally feel strong enough to go ahead and call them as I see them, rather than backing down passively. I have no desire to be a Rohr apologist, but that doesn’t mean I can’t call a spade a spade.

MS