The Cloud of Unknowing & Contemplative Prayer

[InLight247]

cj, If we hear a lot about a person but have never met him, we may say we “know about” the person, but we cannot say we “know” the person. Many people have heard about Jesus, but they don’t know Jesus until they get into the faith and spend time with Him. A personal encounter is necessary for any true relationship.

Same is for contemplation. We may read and talk about contemplation many times, but we won’t know what it is until we practice and experience it. I recommended the book “The Practice of the Presence of God” because it teaches about acquired contemplation. Anyone who has a genuine desire to practice it can acquire it.

Dave, it is always good to talk to you. Brother Lawrence’s letters are very down to the earth, easy to understand and follow. That is why I mentioned earlier that The Practice of the Presence of God is the best book to read. I was trying to say that “the practice of the presence of God” is the best place to start.

The Cloud is by all means a great classic work. I think it is more suitable for people who have been practicing contemplation. We can better understand something if we are able to identify with what it describes. For those are not yet familiar with recollection, the Cloud will make better sense later, not on the starting line. That’s my humble opinion.

 

[Bookcat]

The Cloud of Unknowing for those who understanding it as it was written and in the wider context of Spiritual Theology and the history of Contemplation and the Spiritual Life (and understanding the author noted it is not for beginners etc)…and for some it can certainly be confusing given the nature of the work …but none the less …

Tis a splendid little book.

“The Cloud of Unknowing is perhaps the finest spiritual treatise of the whole fourteenth century”

~ A History of Christian Spirituality Vol II The Spirituality of the Middle Ages – Leclercq, Vandenbroucke and Louis Bouyer

 

[DBT]

Perhaps some timely words from the author of The Cloud would be helpful at this point …
Privy Counseling:

Be at peace in your own calling. Whether you wait outside in meditation or come within by contemplation, you have no cause to complain; both are precious.

Dave

 

[Exiled_Child]

Keating, Meninger and Pennigton(RIP) belong to a contemplative order of monks, The Cistercians of the Strict Observance, also known as Trappist.

Their knowledge and experience in contemplative prayer far exceeds the yours or the critics you follow.

They are not the only contemplative order of monks who teach the same as they do. Benedictines, Carmelites, Augustinians and others, teach the same method of contemplative prayer, because it goes back to the 4th century from the Mystics of the Desert like Abba Isaac and St John Cassian.

The Eastern Orthodox also use the same method and I have read their works as well.

You need to educate yourself about what they taught rather than what the critics who don’t come close to having the equivalent experience with contemplation as they do.

Jim

Yeah, absolutely Jim, this is the bottom line. It would be wonderful if more people read John Cassian! In his book The Conferences, written in the early fifth century, he discussed this in the most exciting and captivating way. So it is without question and without doubt that both the author of The Cloud of Unknowing and the modern Trappists have there antecedents in the Desert Fathers. Conference number one deals with the nature of contemplative prayer, while conferences nine and ten deal with its methodology. I recommend this book without hesitation to all Christians:

newadvent.org/fathers/350801.htm

newadvent.org/fathers/350809.htm

newadvent.org/fathers/350810.htm

amazon.com/John-Cassian-Conferences-Ancient-Christian/dp/0809104849/

These links will take time to read, so they should be bookmarked.

 

[DBT]

InLight247:

We can better understand something if we are able to identify with what it describes. For those are not yet familiar with recollection, the Cloud will make better sense later, not on the starting line. That’s my humble opinion.

Excellent points!

From the author himself on the importance of finding and sticking to spiritual works that speak to you personally … and discerning the appropriate time to begin taking up the type of contemplation discussed in this thread:
Privy Counseling:

For it will happen that a man reads or hears about contemplation and increasingly feels in his ordinary devotions a gently mounting desire to be more intimately united to God, even in this life, through the spiritual work he has read or heard about. Certainly, this indicates that grace is touching him, because others will hear or read of the same thing and be quite unmoved, experiencing no special desire for it in their daily devotions. These folk do well to go on standing patiently at the door (in meditation) as those called to salvation but not yet to it’s perfection (contemplation).

Dave

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Yeah, absolutely Jim, this is the bottom line. It would be wonderful if more people read John Cassian! In his book The Conferences, written in the early fifth century, he discussed this in the most exciting and captivating way. So it is without question and without doubt that both the author of The Cloud of Unknowing and the modern Trappists have there antecedents in the Desert Fathers. Conference number one deals with the nature of contemplative prayer, while conferences nine and ten deal with its methodology. I recommend this book without hesitation to all Christians:

newadvent.org/fathers/350801.htm

newadvent.org/fathers/350809.htm

newadvent.org/fathers/350810.htm

amazon.com/John-Cassian-Conferences-Ancient-Christian/dp/0809104849/

These links will take time to read, so they should be bookmarked.

I had read the conferences at I believe E-Classics at one time.

My Carmelite studies over the years merely confirm those works of the past.

What is interesting is that during St Teresa of Avila and St John of the Cross time in the 1500’s Spain, those classic works along with other spiritual works from the mystics, were banned.

Scripture translations could only be in classical Latin, so St Teresa could not read the Bible even.

Yet, the two saints still end up with the knowledge of contemplation as those who works were banned.

It just goes to show, the Holy Spirit will bring souls to contemplation regardless of their intellectual knowledge on contemplative prayer.

Jim

 

[Exiled_Child]

I had read the conferences at I believe E-Classics at one time.

My Carmelite studies over the years merely confirm those works of the past.

What is interesting is that during St Teresa of Avila and St John of the Cross time in the 1500’s Spain, those classic works along with other spiritual works from the mystics, were banned.

Scripture translations could only be in classical Latin, so St Teresa could not read the Bible even.

Yet, the two saints still end up with the knowledge of contemplation as those who works were banned.

It just goes to show, the Holy Spirit will bring souls to contemplation regardless of their intellectual knowledge on contemplative prayer.

Jim

That’s fascinating, I had no idea Cassian was banned in Teresa and John’s time!

It’s a mystery to be pondered, beautiful, because no matter how submerged or seemingly lost this tradition is, it always returns to the surface somewhere down the line. I don’t know. It’s a subject I hold as dear as dear can be, and I think we just naturally protect what we love and value most. So, from that perspective, I can see why some contemplatives have been leery in the past of openly discussing this subject, only because there’s a great risk of vulgarity creeping into a discussion that is sacred and deserving of great respect. On the other hand though, the world and the Church would both be renewed if this practice became more commonplace.

 

[InLight247]

Originally Posted by Privy Counseling, Chapter 16

Totally agree!

 

[nuntym]

+JMJ+

I am sorry I had not been able to return to answer the posts here, due to personal and family issues.

Ok, by your definition. Personally I think that a “robust” spirituality would include at least a prayer form that the CCC states “should” be included in Christian prayer. But I understand why you are setting it up this way.

So if you want to designate, for this thread only, that “robust traditional” means the Church precepts, plus those particular devotions stereotypical of a group who rejects, avoids, or is completely unaware of the entire apophatic tradition of the Church, that works for me rhetorically.

It took me quite some time to formulate an answer to this one because I am perplexed by your words. “Particular devotions stereotypical of a group who rejects, avoids, or is completely unaware of the entire apophatic tradition of the Church”? Are you really so dismissive of the devotions given by the Catholic Church to the common laity? Especially since these are the same devotions espoused by the classic Catholic authors of apophatic spirituality?

Those who wish to enter by the door [of contemplation] should begin by meditating on the Passion of Christ and learn to be sorry for their personal sins, which caused that Passion. Let them reprove themselves with painful remorse and stir themselves to pity and compassion for their good master, for they have deserved to suffer but did not; while he did not, and suffered so wretchedly. And then let them lift up their hearts to receive the love and goodness of their God, who chose to descend so low as to become a mortal man. Anyone who does this enters by the door and shall be safe. Whether he goes in, contemplating the love and goodness of the Godhead, or goes out, meditating on the sufferings of his humanity, he shall find the spiritual pastures of devotion in abundance. Yes, and should he advance no further in this life, he will have plenty of devotion, and more than plenty, to nourish the health of his spirit and bring him to salvation.

This came from none other than from the author of The Cloud of Unknowing, from his other book The Book of Privy Counseling, chapter 15.

It goes on to say:

Yet some will refuse to enter through this door, thinking to reach perfection by other ways. They will try to get past the door with all sorts of clever speculations, indulging their unbridled and undisciplined faculties in strange, exotic fantasies, scorning the common, open entry I spoke of before and the reliable guidance of a spiritual father as well. Such a person (and I care not who he is) is not only a night thief but a day prowler. A night thief he is, for he works in the darkness of sin. Full of presumption, he trusts his own personal insights and whims more than sound advice or the security of that common, clear path I described.

But it also reveals what I believe to be an unfortunate situation: that there are so many Catholics, and not just the “lukewarm” ones but those with much energy, are missing out on what could (arguably – obviously) be the most important part of their faith – actively advancing personal receptivity toward transforming Union.

I agree with this. Past a certain point in one’s spiritual journey, the Lord calls the soul to a more passive encounter with Him.

However, the reverse is true, and is even more dangerous, as the passage earlier showed: I am very concerned for people who bypassed the Catholic Church’s traditional devotions, who have not at the very least meditated on the life of Jesus Christ in the Scriptures or the traditional prayers.

continued next post

 

[nuntym]

+JMJ+

“Finding more satisfaction” is kind of a consumer-culture way to phrase it. *It can be boring, dry, scary, OR very satisfying. *The point to this prayer is not a sense one gets while doing this. *Some do it for years before they really start to notice any impact. *Just because something feels very pious and satisfying, that doesn’t distinguish whether it is the spirit or the ego that rejoices.
…

I agree with this: I probably have used the wrong word. “Satisfying” really does have a consumerist connotation nowadays. Probably a better word would be “joyful”.

However, you also have a point in that the one who prays would have difficulty determining the efficacy of his prayer regimen, especially in the beginning. Which is why I had said that it is best to stick with the traditional devotions as that is they are the reason they are “traditional”: they work.

What I mean by “they work” is that they have the same effectiveness as the apophatic practices, as we shall see.‎

‎If you would drop contemplative prayer because you don’t have time, …

‎
And here is the crux of the problem it seems: ‎you do not see that the traditional devotions are also contemplative. But do not worry, you are not alone.

As the Catechism said:

‎CCC 2715 Contemplation is a gaze of faith, fixed on Jesus. “I look at him and he looks at me”: this is what a certain peasant of Ars in the time of his holy curé used to say while praying before the tabernacle. This focus on Jesus is a renunciation of self. His gaze purifies our heart; the light of the countenance of Jesus illumines the eyes of our heart and teaches us to see everything in the light of his truth and his compassion for all men. Contemplation also turns its gaze on the mysteries of the life of Christ. Thus it learns the “interior knowledge of our Lord,” the more to love him and follow him.‎

From this it follows that the traditional devotions that focus on aspects of Jesus’ life and mysteries, such as the Sacred Heart, Divine Mercy, Most Precious Blood, the Sto. Niño, the Holy Family, the Rosary, and the Stations of the Cross, are contemplative in nature.

In fact, ‎none other than Pope Saint John Paul II in his encyclical Rosarium Virginis Mariae called the Rosary a contemplative prayer.

Also, the Catechism said this about devotions to sacred images:‎
‎
CCC 1162 “The beauty of the images moves me to contemplation, as a meadow delights the eyes and subtly infuses the soul with the glory of God.” Similarly, the contemplation of sacred icons, united with meditation on the Word of God and the singing of liturgical hymns, enters into the harmony of the signs of celebration so that the mystery celebrated is imprinted in the heart’s memory and is then expressed in the new life of the faithful.‎
‎
Do you not remember what Jesus said to Philip?
‎
‎Philip said to him, “Lord, show us the Father, and we shall be satisfied.” Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you do not know me, Philip? He who has seen me has seen the Father; how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?‎” John 14:8-9
‎

‎Clearly they would never consider Jesus may have been referring to just this mindset in Mt 23…

Be careful with what you say, especially since it seems you lack knowledge on what the traditional devotions are.

 

[nuntym]

+JMJ+

What do you mean “they work”? Are you suggesting that we can achieve union with Jesus by our own works? Considering 1 Cor 13 and all of the things listed there, what part of those works proves that one has love?

Or are you saying that if you do these things, you will achieve union with God, and get to heaven? If these practices are believed to be tickets to heaven, then it’s clear why they are so well-attended. And if they are, one of my reasons to live is to expose Catholics to these treasures that are inexplicably so well hidden.

Please see my previous post.

I don’t know about “most” but you say that. But you bring up a good point, and what is the “spiritual journey” and when does it begin? Some authors consider a first and second half of Christian life – the first part being largely formation of faith and morality, and the second half more of a journey to seek divine union. So in a way, all of the active practices can go into this heading of “starting” the journey.

Correct.

On the other hand, a baby does not need contemplative prayer because it doesn’t have any societal programming into the false “self” that Jesus says we must deny. So I see it kind of as a cyclical thing. A baby starts out great. Then it gets socialized into the world and becomes unwitting participant in its Bad Habits. Then you need religion to fix it. First with basic concepts and morality, then with just seeking the Lord.

My own vote is “yes” because frankly “contemplative prayer” is nothing more or less than trying to achieve a state of mind modeling “receptivity” like Mary did. Say “yes” to the Lord and let Him in, without his having to navigate around a bunch of willful mental activity.

Also, “sitting quietly” has itself become feared and despised. Everybody has to have a noise or entertainment source these days. God forbid they actually sit quietly and encounter something in their thoughts without Lady Gaga to chase it away with her siren songs.

I agree.

Notice that I didn’t bring up anything about the “banned topic” until such time as references were made. “Contemplative prayer” is clearly and objectively an important part of Catholic prayer, as stated in the CCC, whether any given Catholic wants to admit it or not.

But this could be progress. Used to be, some self-identified “orthodox traditional” Catholics, would inevitably chastised the ‘banned topic’ by claiming that it does NOT follow the Cloud. So the fact that you are connecting the ‘banned topic’ and The Cloud actually feels like a bit of a win for me…

I actually used the “Cloud” with intent to have a reference that would not be controversial, and combine it with contemplative prayer as described by the CCC, with the knowledge there is also nothing controversial about whether Catholic should be doing it other than that due to some form of insanity I haven’t yet figured out.

My only issues are these: (1) People are equating active contemplative prayer with apophatic prayer only, when in fact, Catholic teaching says that active contemplation can be achieved in cataphatic prayer as well. (2) There are those who think one can bypass the traditional devotions (which are mostly cataphatic) and go straight to apophatic prayer; this is not only dangerous but also against the teachings of the classic Catholic authors of apophatic prayer.

But in this thread, the Cloud itself is being maligned as being suspicious – when in previous threads I’ve seen it was accepted by all involved as an authentic and important work of Catholic mysticism.

Then it seems there is a lack of education then. For both sides.

Maybe more references to the ‘banned topic’ would have saved the Cloud from taking the fall? So maybe the objections to contemplative prayer are spreading and the sources are falling out of favor? That could actually mean progress. At some point we will run out of straw men and have to confront the fact of whether our claims to be followers of Catholic teachings, actually include humble acceptance of the teachings of the CCC.

Again, for both sides.

Yes I see it mostly the same way here about how these go. But actually yes I’ve seen the “banned topic” being equated to sinfulness and all sorts of scary words thrown at it like “New Age” and “Buddhist” and “opening a door to the occult” for example. :banghead:

sigh

 

[nuntym]

+JMJ+

Spiritual advisers themselves will be split on this issue. But a balanced approach is usually best in most things. I am who who, as I have said, requires acquired contemplation and there are many ways to approach it. It balances me, anchors me in Christ, dare I say centers me in Christ, gives me energy, gives me deep peace, washes away anxieties. If I miss a few days is certainly diminishes the quality of my life as it is like fasting from God.

This is a difficult question because I was baptized as an infant and attended Catholic grade school. I had all the beginner formation back in the traditional 50’s and 60’s. But nothing came alive for me until I started contemplation in the 70’s. What is a beginner? I would say that even with the groundwork of beginner formation it was contemplation that stirred a new beginning. I would say do not impede the Holy Spirit. Some are called to it without even seeking it. Others discover it as the fulfillment of their spiritual practices and even as the jewel of them.

Look for the fruits.

Totally agree with these.

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

cj, If we hear a lot about a person but have never met him, we may say we “know about” the person, but we cannot say we “know” the person. Many people have heard about Jesus, but they don’t know Jesus until they get into the faith and spend time with Him. A personal encounter is necessary for any true relationship.

Same is for contemplation. We may read and talk about contemplation many times, but we won’t know what it is until we practice and experience it. I recommended the book “The Practice of the Presence of God” because it teaches about acquired contemplation. Anyone who has a genuine desire to practice it can acquire it.

Dave, it is always good to talk to you. Brother Lawrence’s letters are very down to the earth, easy to understand and follow. That is why I mentioned earlier that The Practice of the Presence of God is the best book to read. I was trying to say that “the practice of the presence of God” is the best place to start.

The Cloud is by all means a great classic work. I think it is more suitable for people who have been practicing contemplation. We can better understand something if we are able to identify with what it describes. For those are not yet familiar with recollection, the Cloud will make better sense later, not on the starting line. That’s my humble opinion.

I haven’t caught up on the thread yet; I’m at this post, and I like the way you worded it.

I’ve mentioned this book before, but it’s way back in the thread so I’ll mention it again. “Armchair Mystic” It is by a Jesuit and has imprimatur and nihil obstat, and covers all types of prayer including contemplation and vocal prayer, Rosary, etc. I was used at the seminary in St. Louis as intro to prayer class. Very readable, Kindle and Audible versions (read by the author) available. He is very realistic about distractions and the busy narrative that can run through your head during any prayer really.

Here’s a snippet from the book. I opened to some place in the middle, near the end of chapter 3. I thought the last page of the chapter gives a good idea of his style:

wanted to know the rules of the road, the policies and procedures, so that I might successfully do prayer. I was approaching prayer in that same frenetic Martha-state that I approached everything in life. Prayer was to be another achievement to be checked off my to-do list—another accomplishment with which I could say (at least to myself), “Look at what I’ve done. See what a good Christian I’m becoming.” I did not realize that prayer must “be done to me” by God.

I, as a beginner, must learn to sit with the Savoys. I must learn from books like this one, not how to sit, but rather how to stop worrying about how to sit. I must not fret about which stage I am in or whether I’m good at praying. All of the little “tips” I find in this book and elsewhere will be of no use to me unless I approach prayer in the spirit of Mary and of the Savoys. Books like these should get me started, not help me finish the job of praying. This is the first moment of surrender. Many more will follow. *

Conclusion

Have I picked up this book because my prayer seems as sloppy and disheveled as the porch-sitting Savoys? Will I read this book to learn how to “clean it up” and “do it right”? Or will I surrender those preoccupations and let the Lord decide what my prayer should be like? And will I allow this book to teach me to embrace the relationship I already have with God, messy as it might be?

In the previous chapter, I said that the path of contemplative prayer is a path that leads me from Talking at God, through Talking to God, through Listening to God and finally to Being With God. This four-stage process can be simplified by saying that in contemplative prayer, I move from a Martha-state-of-doing to a Mary-state-of-being. Ultimately, both descriptions come down to an evolution of surrendering to God. This is the direction in which I am going in my journey through prayer. It is the “one thing” necessary.

Thibodeaux S.J., Mark (2011-08-09). Armchair Mystic: Easing into Contemplative Prayer (pp. 38-40). St. Anthony Messenger Press. Kindle Edition.

 

[Lily_Bernans]

I haven’t been able to read all the posts yet, so I apologize if I repeat something that has already been said.

I grew up in a Carmelite cloister (my aunt was the Mother Superior). I learned from a very early age, five to be exact, that God had called me to a life of prayerful contemplation. Along my way, I’ve also learned that just as God calls people to different paths in life, he also calls them to different styles of prayer, and one is not better than another, they are just different. Some people are called to a more active kind of prayer or prayer in community. Others are called to a very active life of service like Mother Teresa was. Some people are called to mysticism and contemplation like Therese of Lisieux. Some are called to both like St. Teresa of Avila and St. John of the Cross, who reformed the Carmelite order.

I love praying in church with my community, but the way I develop my personal relationship with God is through contemplation. I don’t believe anyone can “learn” to be a mystic or a contemplative. You either are or you are not. And the book is, as our forum master indicated, for anyone called to it. Anyone God calls to it will benefit from reading it.

 

[Bookcat]

Note that the terms “contemplation” “contemplative prayer” etc have varied uses within the history Spiritual Theology and among the various faithful writers. There is for example “acquired contemplation”…etc. If one tries to “match up” the many varied Spiritual works down through the centuries who use similar terms but mean differing things - one will encounter some confusion. Whole volumes of Spiritual Theology are needed to deal with all the various Schools and meanings of their terms.

 

[Michael_Mayo]

It is funny how Mindfulness Meditation has become so popular. And that, of course seems to come from the Buddhist tradition. I say “seems” to come because it has always been present in Christian tradition also but we call it vigilance. Like the apostles in the garden with Jesus we try to keep watch with Christ but it can get pretty boring. We try to stay sober and alert just being prresent to Christ who is present to us.

Isn’t that the problem of so many? Christ is present but we lose awareness of His presence. It takes mindfulness, vigilance, watchfulness. That is the contemplative prayer that The Cloud aims for. It offers a tool, a method, to help keep us sober and alert.

 

[nuntym]

+JMJ+

It is funny how Mindfulness Meditation has become so popular. And that, of course seems to come from the Buddhist tradition. I say “seems” to come because it has always been present in Christian tradition also but we call it vigilance. Like the apostles in the garden with Jesus we try to keep watch with Christ but it can get pretty boring. We try to stay sober and alert just being prresent to Christ who is present to us.

Isn’t that the problem of so many? Christ is present but we lose awareness of His presence. It takes mindfulness, vigilance, watchfulness. That is the contemplative prayer that The Cloud aims for. It offers a tool, a method, to help keep us sober and alert.

Please correct me if I am wrong, but isn’t it that the goals of Christian and Buddhist meditations and mindfulness are almost diametrically opposite in goals? Sure the methods seem similar, but in the Buddhist tradition (and here I am generalizing) meditation’s goal is to “empty” the mind so that in mindfulness the mind can be open and able to be attentive to the present. In the Christian tradition, on the other hand, (and again generalizing) meditation is to focus on Christ, so that we are mindful of His presence and His will in the world, what is called as a “supernatural” view of the world.

 

[Bookcat]

+JMJ+

Please correct me if I am wrong, but isn’t it that the goals of Christian and Buddhist meditations and mindfulness are almost diametrically opposite in goals? Sure the methods seem similar, but in the Buddhist tradition (and here I am generalizing) meditation’s goal is to “empty” the mind so that in mindfulness the mind can be open and able to be attentive to the present. In the Christian tradition, on the other hand, (and again generalizing) meditation is to focus on Christ, so that we are mindful of His presence and His will in the world, what is called as a “supernatural” view of the world.

From the Holy See: vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_19891015_meditazione-cristiana_en.html

Fr. Jacques Philippe: frjacquesphilippe.com/node/117

 

[nuntym]

+JMJ+

From the Holy See: vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_19891015_meditazione-cristiana_en.html

Fr. Jacques Philippe: frjacquesphilippe.com/node/117

An interesting read, that document from the Holy See. A bit of a tangent from my post that you answered, but quite important nonetheless to this thread:

1. Therefore, one has to interpret correctly the teaching of those masters who recommend “emptying” the spirit of all sensible representations and of every concept, while remaining lovingly attentive to God. In this way, the person praying creates an empty space which can then be filled by the richness of God. However, the emptiness which God requires is that of the renunciation of personal selfishness, not necessarily that of the renunciation of those created things which he has given us and among which he has placed us. There is no doubt that in prayer one should concentrate entirely on God and as far as possible exclude the things of this world which bind us to our selfishness.

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_19891015_meditazione-cristiana_en.html

That just supports what I was saying all along in this thread: you do not need the apophatic practices to achieve acquired contemplation.

Sure if it seems that the Holy Spirit is calling you to practice apophatic prayer, then do so with the appropriate guidance and caution. But I must object to anyone who only equates such “negative” practices as those from The Cloud of Unknowing and the “banned topic” to acquired contemplation; similarly, I must object to anyone who says that those who practice traditional devotions correctly are lacking acquired contemplation.

 

[simple_soul]

+JMJ+

An interesting read, that document from the Holy See. A bit of a tangent from my post that you answered, but quite important nonetheless to this thread:

1. Therefore, one has to interpret correctly the teaching of those masters who recommend “emptying” the spirit of all sensible representations and of every concept, while remaining lovingly attentive to God. In this way, the person praying creates an empty space which can then be filled by the richness of God. However, the emptiness which God requires is that of the renunciation of personal selfishness, not necessarily that of the renunciation of those created things which he has given us and among which he has placed us. There is no doubt that in prayer one should concentrate entirely on God and as far as possible exclude the things of this world which bind us to our selfishness.

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_19891015_meditazione-cristiana_en.html

That just supports what I was saying all along in this thread: you do not need the apophatic practices to achieve acquired contemplation.

Sure if it seems that the Holy Spirit is calling you to practice apophatic prayer, then do so with the appropriate guidance and caution. But I must object to anyone who only equates such “negative” practices as those from The Cloud of Unknowing and the “banned topic” to acquired contemplation; similarly, I must object to anyone who says that those who practice traditional devotions correctly are lacking acquired contemplation.

Hi Nuntym, sorry to interject in this discussion. I’ve been following this discusion and your post here just made me realize something. Well at least I believe it just made me realize something. I know I could be wrong but I do believe there is a major or maybe even a wrongful assumption on your part here and others of like mind about those who advocate the Cloud of the Unknowing and it’s teachings/instructions. I have not taken anything that anyone has said about the Cloud of the Unknowing or the “banned topic” to be an apophatic, had to look that work up, form of meditation or contemplation. Maybe I am miss-understanding what you are saying here?