The Cloud of Unknowing & Contemplative Prayer

[DBT]

But I must object to anyone who only equates such “negative” practices as those from The Cloud of Unknowing and the “banned topic” to acquired contemplation; similarly, I must object to anyone who says that those who practice traditional devotions correctly are lacking acquired contemplation.

Hello nuntym -

I’m not sure anyone is saying “only” as much as “one among many” … but I suppose I could be wrong about that. Of course there are affirmative and negative approaches to this … as indicated in the broad and expansive descriptions we see in the CCC which were drawn from the Church’s long and rich mystical history. But since this is a thread on The Cloud, the negative has been emphasized. I’m sure the conversation would/could go quite different if the topic was on an Osuna, Teresa or Brother Lawrence … just to give a couple examples.

And certainly the type of devotions you listed previously, for many people, probably serve the same purpose as the spiritual writers who speak of the role of discursive meditation … the “door,” in the language of The Cloud, to contemplation.

Dave

 

[Bookcat]

you do not need the apophatic practices to achieve acquired contemplation.

Correct.

And note that riches of Spiritual Theology (faithful to the Church) is vast.

And various writers and schools use some of the same terms…but mean varied things…

 

[Bookcat]

Please all - note that saying “banned topic” really is to discuss the topic or presume assertions about it etc etc.

Please cease entirely…

Thanks.

 

[Bookcat]

you do not need the apophatic practices to achieve acquired contemplation.

Correct…

And note that riches of Spiritual Theology (faithful to the Church) is vast.

And various writers and schools use some of the same terms…but mean varied things…

 

[Michael_Mayo]

+JMJ+

Please correct me if I am wrong, but isn’t it that the goals of Christian and Buddhist meditations and mindfulness are almost diametrically opposite in goals? Sure the methods seem similar, but in the Buddhist tradition (and here I am generalizing) meditation’s goal is to “empty” the mind so that in mindfulness the mind can be open and able to be attentive to the present. In the Christian tradition, on the other hand, (and again generalizing) meditation is to focus on Christ, so that we are mindful of His presence and His will in the world, what is called as a “supernatural” view of the world.

I think the interpretations of the goal seem opposite. As you say In Buddhism:“empty” the mind so that in mindfulness the mind can be open and able to be attentive to the present; while in Christianity:meditation is to focus on Christ, so that we are mindful of His presence and His will in the world.

But I think Christ is in the present moment.

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

I think the interpretations of the goal seem opposite. As you say In Buddhism:“empty” the mind so that in mindfulness the mind can be open and able to be attentive to the present; while in Christianity:meditation is to focus on Christ, so that we are mindful of His presence and His will in the world.

But I think Christ is in the present moment.

How does one focus on Christ in this way, without it being a mindful meditation?

I don’t get why this “empty” thing is so scary. It seems like someone once said “idle hands are a devil’s workshop” and now I guess we think “idle minds” are too? Or that if the Buddhists do it then it must be wrong so we have to carve out the ways in which we differ?

This prayer does not involve itself in any particular “belief” at all – including belief in Jesus. You don’t have to “believe in Jesus” when in fact you’re with Him. If someone asks if my wife is with me, I say “yes” or “no” not “I believe so” as in she may be sitting right there but I don’t even recognize her from any other woman.

If we cannot know both mentally and experientially that Christ is within us at all times – whether things are going well or not – then contemplative prayer is targeted toward helping with that.

What is wrong or dangerous with simple sitting comfortably, sensing but not intentionally taking notice or becoming invested in stories about, both the environment around me and the thoughts I may notice as they occur to me?

This is why a divided house cannot stand IMO; something that I’m guessing started as a battle of egos, progressed into a meme that took off and justifies all sorts of dissent.

I’m going to take a shot at what I would call a contemplative. For me, it is like a confidence that Christ is with me and within me at any given time. Not just when things are going well, and not just when I don’t sin.

 

[Robert_Sock]

How does one focus on Christ in this way, without it being a mindful meditation?

**I don’t get why this “empty” thing is so scary. It seems like someone once said “idle hands are a devil’s workshop” and now I guess we think “idle minds” are too? Or that if the Buddhists do it then it must be wrong so we have to carve out the ways in which we differ?
**
This prayer does not involve itself in any particular “belief” at all – including belief in Jesus. You don’t have to “believe in Jesus” when in fact you’re with Him. If someone asks if my wife is with me, I say “yes” or “no” not “I believe so” as in she may be sitting right there but I don’t even recognize her from any other woman.

If we cannot know both mentally and experientially that Christ is within us at all times – whether things are going well or not – then contemplative prayer is targeted toward helping with that.

What is wrong or dangerous with simple sitting comfortably, sensing but not intentionally taking notice or becoming invested in stories about, both the environment around me and the thoughts I may notice as they occur to me?

This is why a divided house cannot stand IMO; something that I’m guessing started as a battle of egos, progressed into a meme that took off and justifies all sorts of dissent.

I’m going to take a shot at what I would call a contemplative. For me, it is like a confidence that Christ is with me and within me at any given time. Not just when things are going well, and not just when I don’t sin.

I think you’re confusing one’s emptying of the mind to be a passive process, it is not. My brain is probably eating up more calories during CP than normal. You also seem to be confusing CP as idleness. It is not.

 

[Lily_Bernans]

For me, being a contemplative means union with God. If contemplative prayer brings me to that union, fine. If prayer in community brings others to it, just as fine.

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

I think you’re confusing one’s emptying of the mind to be a passive process, it is not. My brain is probably eating up more calories during CP than normal. You also seem to be confusing CP as idleness. It is not.

Ok, maybe that’s the distinction they are making. That this “emptying” is not a passive process? Could be.

But do you consciously meditate on Christ? If so, I’d call that meditative prayer not contemplative. I get the impression that when the words “emptying” and “Buddhism” come up near each other in a contemplative prayer discussion, that somehow we think that Catholics are obligated to be consciously focused on Jesus throughout the prayer. That sounds like fear to me, and that by doing so one might miss the benefit.

 

[Robert_Sock]

Ok, maybe that’s the distinction they are making. That this “emptying” is not a passive process? Could be.

But do you consciously meditate on Christ? If so, I’d call that meditative prayer not contemplative. I get the impression that when the words “emptying” and “Buddhism” come up near each other in a contemplative prayer discussion, that somehow we think that Catholics are obligated to be consciously focused on Jesus throughout the prayer. That sounds like fear to me, and that by doing so one might miss the benefit.

I would think that in CP people would have an increased awareness of God’s presence (not a thought, but a subtle feelings of our love of God).

 

[Lily_Bernans]

I would think that in CP people would have an increased awareness of God’s presence (not a thought, but a subtle feelings of our love of God).

Just for the record, I do, and they are usually not subtle.

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

I would think that in CP people would have an increased awareness of God’s presence (not a thought, but a subtle feelings of our love of God).

Yes, I do, too.

Maybe the way to say it, then, is that we are not consciously “emptying” on purpose, as in a willful activity, because that’s a contradiction. That is a contradiction I noticed early in… how does one think of nothing, on purpose? It’s hard to “let go” when we so often hear “pay attention” and “think harder” as solutions to problems. They can be solutions to some problems, and causes of others that CP addresses – by helping us become receptive.

 

[Robert_Sock]

Just for the record, I do, and they are usually not subtle.

 

[InLight247]

I like to share my thoughts on fullness and emptiness of mind as far as contemplation is concerned. What I am sharing is not necessary from this book or that book but sort of in the nature of a personal experience.

I believe a heart full of God helps much in contemplation. This fullness means the heart and mind is fully occupied by the Beloved. In other words, the practice of the presence of God is like a second nature. The person does not need to work hard to “get into” the presence of God because he stays in the presence of God.

I like to use the analogy of falling in love to explain. Remember the time you first fell in love with someone? You would naturally think of the person all the time. You did not need any effort to think of him or her. Actually in such an intense love, you may need efforts to take your focus off that person.

Same is the nature of contemplation. Contemplation is a loving internal gaze on the Beloved. This gaze is out of the desire of the heart. Like the analogy of “falling in love”, the deep thirst for the Beloved makes this loving gaze natural. As for emptying the mind, it is to get rid of distractions. Emptying distraction won’t make the mind void because the Beloved is always resides in the contemplative heart.

 

[DBT]

falling in love to explain …

Beautiful

The young couple first dating babble on to each other all the time. Their enthusiasm and affection through non stop chatter is one of the ways they get to know each other.

The old couple sit silently at the dinner table quietly passing the salt and pepper to each other in anticipation of each others needs.

Both couples love and communicate … but in very different ways and depth of maturity.

Such is the difference between contemplation and the other prayer forms that, God willing, can lead to it.

Dave

 

[Robert_Sock]

Beautiful

The young couple first dating babble on to each other all the time. Their enthusiasm and affection through non stop chatter is one of the ways they get to know each other.

The old couple sit silently at the dinner table quietly passing the salt and pepper to each other in anticipation of each others needs.

Both couples love and communicate … but in very different ways and depth of maturity.

Such is the difference between contemplation and the other prayer forms that, God willing, can lead to it.

Dave

Well said!

 

[Michael_Mayo]

Same is the nature of contemplation. Contemplation is a loving internal gaze on the Beloved. .

But what is one actually gazing at? An imagined image? The dark abyss before one’s eyes? Empty space?

 

[Michael_Mayo]

What is wrong or dangerous with simple sitting comfortably, sensing but not intentionally taking notice or becoming invested in stories about, both the environment around me and the thoughts I may notice as they occur to me?

It seems to me about as dangerous as falling asleep. Even less since we remain alert keeping vigil to the subtle awareness of Christ present.

 

[nuntym]

+JMJ+

Hi Nuntym, sorry to interject in this discussion. I’ve been following this discusion and your post here just made me realize something. Well at least I believe it just made me realize something. I know I could be wrong but I do believe there is a major or maybe even a wrongful assumption on your part here and others of like mind about those who advocate the Cloud of the Unknowing and it’s teachings/instructions. I have not taken anything that anyone has said about the Cloud of the Unknowing or the “banned topic” to be an apophatic, had to look that work up, form of meditation or contemplation. Maybe I am miss-understanding what you are saying here?

Oh, sorry, a little clarification on terms then. “Apophatic theology” attempts to describe God by what He is not; therefore apophatic prayer and spirituality focuses on the experience of the Divine as ineffable. “Cataphatic theology”, on the other hand, attempts to describe God by what He is; therefore cataphatic prayer and spirituality focuses on the encounter of God as friend and master.

Because of the minimizing of the role of reason and the intellect in The Cloud of Unknowing and similar practices, the are considered apophatic: you try to go beyond what can be known about God and just rest in Him.

 

[nuntym]

+JMJ+

It seems to me about as dangerous as falling asleep. Even less since we remain alert keeping vigil to the subtle awareness of Christ present.

Exactly. That is why I keep on saying that one must go through the traditional devotions of the Catholic Church before going to the apophatic practices: how will you know you are keeping vigil for and resting in Christ if you do not even know who He is? Falling asleep is not so dangerous when in a place of refuge, but how about in a forest or in the street?

Apophatic prayer wants to go beyond what can and is known about God. But that is the thing: “beyond” what is known. You have to go through what is known to go beyond it.